Coco Nutrient Ratios

az2000 said:

I'm curious, why do you stay with coco when you "usually" have a problem in mid flower? Wouldn't it be easier to switch to Pro-Mix if you want to remain soilless, or switch to a soil?

I used to use Pro-Mix HP. I never had issues. I began mixing 20% Kellogg Patio Plus and 20% perlite to 60% HP and it's been working very, very well using a balance of synthetic and organic nutrients.

I'm not trying to convert you. I'm curious what coco delivers to justify all this challenge you're working with.

Click to expand...

I'm more surprised that my plants are still doing quite well despite all the problems. And mine look like trailer trash compared to boilingoil's! Can only imagine how much better they'd be minus all the screw ups

I know the solution for me is a coco specific line of nutes. But I am still curious as to what's been giving me grey hairs over the past few months. A lot of people giving out advice to just calmag it. But, as Canna says in the link Doc posted...

"throwing a calcium or magnesium product at the problem will just make it worse over time"



Seems the correct nutrient profile for the buffered capacity of your coco (???) is what it comes down to. I thought by going down the bagged coco route I would not have to worry about this, based on my research (and understanding of it... lol) at the time. I think I read this:

http://maximumyield.com/buffering-up-adjusting-the-cation-exchange-capacity-in-coco-growing-media/

And just went, nah, stuff that. I will screw that shit up and bought the H&G bagged coco instead... lol

outlier said:

I know the solution for me is a coco specific line of nutes.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be easier to just grow in a light soil?

az2000 said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just grow in a light soil?

Click to expand...

Maybe

I don't have access to most of the brands commonly recommended round here. I can't even get CNS-17 without paying an arm and a leg to get it over here. Happy Frog, Pro-Mix, la de da. Nope, not here mate

outlier said:

I don't have access to most of the brands commonly recommended round here. I can't even get CNS-17 without paying an arm and a leg to get it over here. Happy Frog, Pro-Mix, la de da. Nope, not here mate

Click to expand...

Nothing special about Promix. You could make your own. It's about 40% perlite, 60% peat. I always add 1tbsp/gal dolomite. If I used generic peat and unsure of it's dolomite content, I would use 2tbps. (Dolomite's not a critical measurement. It doesn't change the ph much, just holds it steady. More = longer. But, I wouldn't go crazy with cups of dolomite.). Then some generic myco if you have that available. But, that's not critical.

That would let you do soilless.

I would add some soil and treat it as soil (not soilless). Just a small amount (plus more perlite to compensate for the soil probably being low on perlite). I do 60% promix, 20% soil & 20% perlite.

I attached some photos showing what the Pro-Mix HP and Kellogg Patio Plus[1] looks like, and what the resulting 3-1-1 (parts mixed together) looks like. That might help you target promix (and the light soil if you wanted to try that). If you grow with HID, I would replace the perlite with some amount of vermiculite so it doesn't dry too fast. (Pro-Mix BX has vermiculite, but I'm not sure how much it has. HID growers use it instead of HP.).

I'll stop. I hope I didn't go off topic.

[1] Kellogg Patio Plus ingredients: Aged recycled forest products, aged rice hulls, composted poultry manure, perlite, peat moss, hydrolyzed feather meal, dehydrated poultry manure, dolomite & oyster shell limes (as pH adjusters), bat guano, kelp meal, worm castings

az2000 said:

Nothing special about Promix. You could make your own. It's about 40% perlite, 60% peat. I always add 1tbsp/gal dolomite. If I used generic peat and unsure of it's dolomite content, I would use 2tbps. (Dolomite's not a critical measurement. It doesn't change the ph much, just holds it steady. More = longer. But, I wouldn't go crazy with cups of dolomite.). Then some generic myco if you have that available. But, that's not critical.

That would let you do soilless.

I would add some soil and treat it as soil (not soilless). Just a small amount (plus more perlite to compensate for the soil probably being low on perlite). I do 60% promix, 20% soil & 20% perlite.

I attached some photos showing what the Pro-Mix HP and Kellogg Patio Plus[1] looks like, and what the resulting 3-1-1 (parts mixed together) looks like. That might help you target promix (and the light soil if you wanted to try that). If you grow with HID, I would replace the perlite with some amount of vermiculite so it doesn't dry too fast. (Pro-Mix BX has vermiculite, but I'm not sure how much it has. HID growers use it instead of HP.).

I'll stop. I hope I didn't go off topic.

[1] Kellogg Patio Plus ingredients: Aged recycled forest products, aged rice hulls, composted poultry manure, perlite, peat moss, hydrolyzed feather meal, dehydrated poultry manure, dolomite & oyster shell limes (as pH adjusters), bat guano, kelp meal, worm castings

Click to expand...

Off topic or not, it's a great post, thanks!

az2000 said:

Premier Hort. (makes Pro-Mix) says 5.9. Most people say 5.8-6.0 in veg, 6.0-6.2 in flower. That's what I did with GH Flora 3-part. Yes, I think it's best to feed hydro nutrients with soilless.

I add 20% soil now and treat it as soil. I wouldn't use hydro nutrients with soil (nor soil nutrients with soilless).

You mentioned wanting to try supersoil. @unwine99 has an interesting "no-cook" soil I'd like to try. Just water-only (or some teas) through the whole grow. (I'd like to try that kind of growing without the burden of composting a soil for months.).

Click to expand...

My friend I spoke of use to add soil to his mix and treated it as such but he doesn't add it anymore. Now that he switched to a hydro nute I will tell him to lower the ph and see how his promix works with that. Thanks for the link too. I plan on using a mix of some sort that should only require teas or other natural amendments. I really feel like trying DWC.

To sum everything up I do really like Coco its just a matter of learning what plants truly need nutrient wise. In any medium really which we all know is different from one grow to the next and can also vary on preference alone.

I would like to make my own mediums and nutrients from scratch one day.. The last thing anyone likes to do is hand over wads of cash to horticulture company's when they can make their own for a fraction of the cost!!

outlier said:

I'm more surprised that my plants are still doing quite well despite all the problems. And mine look like trailer trash compared to boilingoil's! Can only imagine how much better they'd be minus all the screw ups

I know the solution for me is a coco specific line of nutes. But I am still curious as to what's been giving me grey hairs over the past few months. A lot of people giving out advice to just calmag it. But, as Canna says in the link Doc posted...

"throwing a calcium or magnesium product at the problem will just make it worse over time"



Seems the correct nutrient profile for the buffered capacity of your coco (???) is what it comes down to. I thought by going down the bagged coco route I would not have to worry about this, based on my research (and understanding of it... lol) at the time. I think I read this:

http://maximumyield.com/buffering-up-adjusting-the-cation-exchange-capacity-in-coco-growing-media/

And just went, nah, stuff that. I will screw that shit up and bought the H&G bagged coco instead... lol

Click to expand...

YES! It is very importance to rinse and buffer coco. You want the correct buffer and a clean product to start. I personally have also had more success when I cut it with a little perlite. But I am convinced that once buffered the cal-mag additives are not needed (especially if using tap water) and from there on its about feeding the correct nutrient profile and not letting any salts buildup. There's a few people on here that I trust that recommend a 2:1 ratio of Ca:Mg. Most nutes wont have enough Mg so a lot of people will hit there plants with a dose of epsom salts here and there if needed.

Ive thought about using the bagged stuff for the same reason but the price difference is crazy here. I got the 5kg pressed blocks for $12

boilingoil said:

I used the CNS-17 line for years till they changed the formula. First off ditch the grow and use the bloom formula from start to finish, only other thing you'll need is Hydroplex for a PK boost from week 3-6. 7 gallon pots of coir is a lot for coco, how often are you watering? Are you allowing enough run-off? Never had to run over it over 10 ml a gallon.

Click to expand...

I used it for a couple of years, some of my buddies still do. I stopped using it also, when they ditched the coco and soil version. I ran mine at 15ml/gal.
Used the grow in veg and up to two weeks in. Bloom until 3 weeks out, if not to the end. Usually would switch to only the ripe for the last 3 weeks. Worked killer. I just don't like using 15ml/gal of anything anymore, got tired of the white snot, and like I said, they switched the formula.

outlier said:

I'm more surprised that my plants are still doing quite well despite all the problems. And mine look like trailer trash compared to boilingoil's! Can only imagine how much better they'd be minus all the screw ups

I know the solution for me is a coco specific line of nutes. But I am still curious as to what's been giving me grey hairs over the past few months. A lot of people giving out advice to just calmag it. But, as Canna says in the link Doc posted...

"throwing a calcium or magnesium product at the problem will just make it worse over time"



Seems the correct nutrient profile for the buffered capacity of your coco (???) is what it comes down to. I thought by going down the bagged coco route I would not have to worry about this, based on my research (and understanding of it... lol) at the time. I think I read this:

http://maximumyield.com/buffering-up-adjusting-the-cation-exchange-capacity-in-coco-growing-media/

And just went, nah, stuff that. I will screw that shit up and bought the H&G bagged coco instead... lol

Click to expand...

The buddies I know still using the cns17, use it with coco. Zero problems. They are in the bay area with semi hard water, don't add calmag or anything else, and kill it with the stuff. Again, nothing else.

Yes if you notice when they switched the formula they dropped the cal a whole percentage point.
You don't need coco specific nutes. I use hydro nutes'.
If you read around there are several articles saying you're ratios of cal to mag should be more like 3-1 or 4-1.

I like good ole Ionic Grow and Bloom for coco coir at 4 tsp per gallon (1.4 ec) mixed with some fossil fuel humics. Bcuzz or Greenfuse bloom and root stimulators and Terpinator at peak flower. That one is optional. I too have noticed cns 17 changed up. Its not bad but that white milky mixing is retarded. The consolidated that line up to make room for Kind 3 part. CNS 17 was decent. When i cant get Ionic i go to it for the price. The mixing sucks though.

since1991 said:

I like good ole Ionic Grow and Bloom for coco coir at 4 tsp per gallon (1.4 ec) mixed with some fossil fuel humics. Bcuzz or Greenfuse bloom and root stimulators and Terpinator at peak flower. That one is optional. I too have noticed cns 17 changed up. Its not bad but that white milky mixing is retarded. The consolidated that line up to make room for Kind 3 part. CNS 17 was decent. When i cant get Ionic i go to it for the price. The mixing sucks though.

Click to expand...

Is that you're total ec with additives, 20 ml a gallon seems like a lot to get a ec of 1.4. What's you're cost on the Ionic? With the 2 part I'm running now it takes 5 ml each of A and B to get 750ppm on a .5 scale with a base water at around 100ppm. Each bottle cost me $10.50 for a liter.

Yeah thats about rite. Ionic is diluted as all hell. 20 ml (4 tspn) per gallon is around 700- 750 ppm (500 scale) with a tap at 110. Its about 35$ a gallon. I like the simple one part of it. But its basically a 2 part in one bottle. Most a & b 2 part bases are 2 tspn/gallon per part to hit 650 - 750 ppm. So in the end its the same.
Just easier to mix up a tank

boilingoil said:

Is that you're total ec with additives, 20 ml a gallon seems like a lot to get a ec of 1.4. What's you're cost on the Ionic? With the 2 part I'm running now it takes 5 ml each of A and B to get 750ppm on a .5 scale with a base water at around 100ppm. Each bottle cost me $10.50 for a liter.

Click to expand...

Whats the brand of that? At one tspn each of a & b to put ppm at 750 sounds like a deal. Whats the price for a gallon set?

I really don't support any nutrient companies as they all can work

Huh? Just want to know what that 2 part is your using now that gives you a decent ppm with a tspn per part. Sounds like something i might check out. Thanks

since1991 said:

Huh? Just want to know what that 2 part is your using now that gives you a decent ppm with a tspn per part. Sounds like something i might check out. Thanks

Click to expand...

The maxi series is around 1.7 EC @1 tsp/gal. Same with the floranova

Right now I'm using cyco base nutrients. None of the supplements'.
I'm in coir so most of my daily feeds are less than 500ppm.
The photo I posted before was of G-13 that produced me 1.5 pounds under a 600 in a 4x4x7 with feeds that where never over 500ppm.

This is my own feeding chart for canna coco a/b and it work's a treat can't get more simple.
==================================================================

(VEG)
week 1 ,1.1 ec,Sometime's i will use rhizatonic with the canna coco a/b but if the clone's or seedlings look ok then just a/b
week 2 ,1.2 ec,canna a/b
week 3 ,1.3 ec canna a/b
week 4 ,1.4 ec canna a/b
-------------------------------------

(FLOWERING)
week 1 ,canna a/b -ec 1.4
week 2 ,canna a/b and big bud from advanced -ec 1.5
week 3 ,canna a/b big bud - ec 1.6
week 4 ,canna a/b - ec 1.6
week 5 ,canna a/b and pk 13/14 - ec 1.7
week 6 ,canna a/b - ec 1.7
week 7 ,canna a/b - ec 1.7
week 8 ,canna a/b - ec 1.7,or water if it's a 8 week strain and the crowning has finished,but i would advice every grower to go through to week 9,
week 9 ,water ,water for 7 days
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not use a ph pen i have not used one now for about 5 year,but the blue lab truncheon is essential,have air ring's in the bottom of the pot's this is a big factor in getting good root's have a compressor or a fish tank pump,sending air to the root's via the air ring.

It does not matter what strain i run i use the same feeding schedule,and i all ways get around the same weight from the plant's.It sound's really simple but i was shown it by a old friend who has been growing for years since late 70's,and this guy is a brilliant farmer full stop,till you try it you may not think this will work but i say give it a go,you will be suprised just how good a yeild you get from something so simple,

In my years doing this i have tried most nutrients and i was a avid user of advanced sensi grow,i had some brilliant end result's from that but since using canna a/b and using 60/40 coco clay balls the end results have got far better i was hitting around 10/12 per plant with advanced sensi a/b but i now get a extra 4/5 oz of each plant every grow using the same method same feeding sced,the ease of using canna is what makes it the best nute i have used by far

Hope that this help's
tyke

boilingoil said:

Right now I'm using cyco base nutrients. None of the supplements'.
I'm in coir so most of my daily feeds are less than 500ppm.
The photo I posted before was of G-13 that produced me 1.5 pounds under a 600 in a 4x4x7 with feeds that where never over 500ppm.

Click to expand...

500 ppm is on the light side of a base feed for me at peak flowering for any varietal ive grown in coir. Theres no way i could get away with 1.0 EC. Maybe in early veg. Maybe. You got some light feeders no doubt. Thats a good thing. Saves your money on nutes.