Coco Growers Unite!

weedyweedy · Feb 25, 2010

This is one of my 18-day-old Satori plants in coco :-)

I haven't fed them any nutes since planting from seed. I just mixed worm castings in the coco and that's were they get all their vigor plus good genetics. I just had two of the biggest ones transplanted earlier and I will commence light nutrient feeding of organic compost tea of guano, fish emulsion, and seaweed two days after transplant.

Masterofgenetics · Feb 25, 2010

Well this is a coco sub forum but what the hell.. Lumatek Ballast have a 5 year waranty so all you have to do is take it to hydro shop you bought it from and they should replace it or mail it in and you'll receive a new one through Hydrofarm if it does happen ask to speak to a man named Ty he is charge of the ballast and refund shit..

snitty04 said:
i want to get electronic ballest.but my hydro dude says the magnetic ones are the way to go cause he can repair them at the store.if it goes bad.but if the electronic one breaks down it could weeks to get fixed. i need imput please

Masterofgenetics · Feb 25, 2010

Right now its just me.. I have a couple of roommates that help me keep the place on lock-down. But other then that just me..
It's a living room and den converted in a old ass house that I bought for almost nothing.. it's a strange house because it has to living rooms. both the same size.. Well I hide the second living room.. You could be in the living room and never even know your sitting next to a indoor jungle..

Don Gin and Ton said:
damn thats some high rollin masterofgenetics you in a co op on the warehouse? man i want a warehouse to grow in.

Masterofgenetics · Feb 25, 2010

Purple maxx burns mine to but never enough to concern me..

Don Gin and Ton said:
i foliar feed with the purple maxx right through flower easing off in the last couple of weeks they get a few feeds for a week ish with the gravity less is definately more with that stuff i rolled with 4ml per 10 litre and got burn on one of my 6 of the same strain not the rest?!

leaf tip burn i get regular anyway so idk?!

jberry · Feb 25, 2010

NewGrowth said:
I can't speak for purple maxx or snow storm but I use Gravity on all my crops now. Every time I use it no matter the medium I get some burnt leaf edges and tips. I only use it with plain water in the last few weeks it also seems like some strains can take more than others. The leaf tips and edges do not really bother me because the mutant buds gravity gives are always denser and heavier

newgrowth,
what dose are you using? do you cut your nutes back?

im trying to find out if it works better in high or low doses... it seems like using less for longer has worked better for me than using a higher dose (long or short)...

NewGrowth · Feb 25, 2010

jberry said:
newgrowth,
what dose are you using? do you cut your nutes back?

im trying to find out if it works better in high or low doses... it seems like using less for longer has worked better for me than using a higher dose (long or short)...

I've always used it at half strength. I usually just use it with plain water in soil and half-strength nutes in coco-coir. It seems like timing is the most crucial part, it's hard form me to time it right on strains I've never grown. The best time to use it seems like right before peak flower starts to end. I know I've used it at the right time when I get a lot of extra mutant bud growth and minimal burn.
I also agree with using less for longer, it seems to have a more of an effect when I use it two or three times at lower doses.

jberry · Mar 1, 2010

Misconceptions that seemingly surround coco substrate when it is spoken about by some on internet forums and elsewhere.

Firstly, let me dispel a common myth and say that coco substrate is a hydroponic medium (largely inert) and is very different from soil. One internet forum actually went so far as to as to have a thread called coco and soil growing implying that the two very different mediums were almost one and the same thing. Let me put things straight. They arent. Coco substrate is coco substrate and soil is soil - the two very different products require two very different treatments/approaches to realise optimum yields.

OK, so lets put that aside; coco substrate is a hydroponic medium. Soil is soil. That simple!

The next thing that needs to be addressed is that idealised coco nutrient is somewhat different from a standard nutrient due to the organic coco substrate containing naturally high levels of potassium and (in many cases) sulphates.

Analysis of a Coco Coir Sample ( Rumors have been flying around that the product tested below was Bcuzz Coco but it may just be local rumor based on a hydro shop sending back pallets of the stuff after testing it because many people were reporting a toxic level of salts in the coco right out of the bag! I'm guessing that the original author didnt want legal problems and that is the reason the brand is left unnamed... i cant say for sure what brand of coco it was but it's bad, lol )

All figures refer to ppm (mg/L)

S (Sulphate)

1978

P (Phosphorous)

126

K (Potassium)

3700

Na (Sodium)

2022

Ca (Calcium)

119

Mg (Magnesium)

104

Cu (Copper)
Zn (Zinc)

3.2

Mn (Manganese)

3.8

Fe (Iron)

12.2

B (Boron)

7

Cl (chloride)

3498

Take a close look at the elemental analysis of our coco substrate product. I would point out that this was a compressed product from Holland (originally deriving from Sri Lanka) which was tested after questions were raised as to why the product was seemingly killing plants.

You will note extreme levels of sodium and chloride or sodium chloride (NaCl or common salt). That is 2022ppm of sodium and 3498ppm of chloride. That is 2022mg (20.22grams) of sodium and 3498mg (34.98grams) of chloride Given that even 200 -300ppm of NaCl is dangerously high to many plants, the sodium chloride levels in this product were extreme and it resulted in disaster.

So another important factor that needs to be addressed - untreated coco coir can contain high levels of sodium chloride (salt). Try to remember that coconut palms grow well in areas of high salinity. This means they uptake a lot of salt from their environment. Plants that are salt tolerant are able to uptake salt and then displace it into areas of the plant where it does the least harm. Seemingly, much of the salt is displaced into the coir of the coconut palm (the very thing we use as a hydroponic medium). Factors that will influence the NaCl levels in any coir product include the treatment it has received prior to sale and how far inland the coconut palms are grown (the further inland the less salinity/salt in the soil/sand and hence the less salt that is uptaken by the coconut palm).

Other than this you will note 3700ppm of Potassium and 1978ppm of sulphate. This tells us that there are high levels of potassium and sulphate that are naturally present in coir products.

Due to these factors, it's recommended that, ideally, growers should purchase buffered coir products and use coco coir nutrients when growing in coco substrate.

OK so the buffered products tend to cost more. Those cheap compressed blocks that you can buy from gardening centres etc are just as good as premium grade buffered coco coir or at least thats whats asserted by some...Some of the cheaper compressed products may perform well with a good flushing prior to use (hopefully, if very high levels of NaCl are present you may be able to flush it out with water before the salt detrimentally affects plant health) but the fact is, that buffered and hydrated products in almost all cases are superior to unbuffered products and there are very good (scientific) reasons for this.

Coir needs to be buffered to offset the NaCl levels, to compensate for natural potassium and sulphate levels and to charge (prepare) the medium with the right ions to facilitate adequate cation exchange capacity (CEC) within the medium.

Signs of toxicity (high levels of NaCl in coir substrate)

Slow/stunted growth
Unhealthy plants
Yellowing
Burning
Rusting on edges of leaves
Rust spots on leaves

jberry · Mar 1, 2010

Coco Nutrition

We have seen that coco substrate contains naturally high levels of potassium (K) and therefore a nutrient formulated for coir will have lower potassium (K) levels than a standard nutrient. Other than this we have also seen that coir naturally contains sulphates and therefore a nutrient developed for coir would contain less S than a standard nutrient (or so this should be the case at least one hydro manufacturer has been known to pass off standard nutrients labelled as coco formulations).

Some years ago I had one European companys formulas for coco and standard bloom analysed. The company makes a single product for coco (one formula used for both grow and bloom) and therefore it is a one size fits all product. Largely however, it is formulated as a bloom product. This was likely due to Dutch growing methodologies where the growth cycle tends to be very short before the light hours are switched down to 12/12 to induce flowerset (i.e. multiples of small plants per square metre). Other than this, you can see our buffer formula (a reverse engineered copy of this companys formula) contains high degrees of calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate, meaning a high degree of NO3 Nitrogen and Ca and Mg is present in the coco medium to help facilitate growth in the early veg stages (the extra Ca, N and Mg will be quickly depleted by vigourously growing plants and it is recommended that you use a coco grow formulation if vegging for an extended period of time).

It is clear to see that the coco formula contains far less potassium (K) than the companys standard bloom formula, less sulphate, more calcium, more magnesium and so on. That is, the formulas differ vastly. One is formulated for an inert medium (standard bloom) and one is formulated for a hydroponic medium that contains high levels of potassium and sulphates (i.e. coco substrate).

Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium and therefore both magnesium and calcium levels have been raised in this formulation to compensate for natural potassium levels within the media.

jberry · Mar 1, 2010

pH measurements in Coir

Coco coir buffers pH in the range of 5.5 7. However bacterial activity and nutrient quality can have an impact on pH stability within the media.

Another misconception I have commonly encountered is that by measuring the run off (waste) in coir it is possible to measure the pH of the medium.

Lets quickly dispel with this myth. Coir media will retain some elements and release others (a process of preferential retention of cations) based on the uptake needs of plants and the prevailing conditions of/within the media.

Because of this, measuring the run off (waste) will not reflect the pH within the coir medium (i.e. the rhizosphere environment of the plants).

The correct way to measure pH, in coco substrate, is to take samples of the media from around the root zone. These samples are then added to distilled water, then vigorously shaken or blended and tested with a pH meter. This method will provide you with the correct pH within the coir media (rhizosphere) environment.

jberry · Mar 1, 2010

If using RO (demineralised) water I would recommend a 20% run off (waste) regime.

If using mains (tap) water, I would recommend run off (waste) be maintained at 30 percent due to naturally present salts that are often found in tap water supplies. Elements such iron (Fe), magnesium (Mg), calcium (Ca) and sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl) which combined form common salt (NaCl). Sodium and Chloride normally occur together and are not taken up to any degree by most plants, especially sodium; therefore, they tend to accumulate if present in significant amounts.

In some cases tap water supplies can contain high EC/ppm levels of these salts (ions) and this can detrimentally affect the growing medium. Therefore, in order to circumvent any problems that can occur as a result of this, I recommend a higher waste percentage if using mains water than if you were growing with RO or rain water.

I should also add some information now, regarding feed regimes in coco substrate. (I personally have lowered my run off to around 10 percent and noted no difference)

I have seen growers using all manner of feeding techniques and achieving extremely good results. One friend - a long time and very advanced grower - who had been using a wide channelled NFT system switched to coco coir and contrary to my advice began hand watering. I was somewhat perplexed by why he would go this way but I’ve always preached KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and was intrigued by his methods. For the next 10 or so weeks I watched closely as my friend Feral saturated his pots full of coir twice daily (during the lights on period) with a resultant approx 50 per cent run off on each feed.

“Mate, you’re over watering” I contended,” the medium is too saturated and you’re reducing the natural air porosity of the medium. (A quality coco substrate product will possess approximately 30 per cent air porosity, which is ideal for rhizosphere health).

“Yeah, but they look great and they’re growing faster than anything I’ve ever grown before”, he responded. To this I couldn’t argue; indeed, the plants were as healthy as any I’d seen and were growing at a rapid rate.

On his first grow he realised a 30 - 35 per cent increase in yield to what he had been achieving through his much touted (bells and whistles) wide channel NFT system. Of course, at this point he was sold and began switching all of his friends to coir substrate RTW growing (after years of promoting the wide channelled NFT system via internet forums to all who would listen).

The moral of the story is this. There are ideals where agricultural (scientific) principles are concerned. However, what I have learned (gained) from Feral and others is that coco substrate tends to be so forgiving, that whether you feed multiples of small feeds with 10 – 30 per cent waste (methodology correct) or whether the medium is hand watered and therefore more saturated, you will achieve great results.

jberry · Mar 1, 2010

Coco Substrate and Sciaradae (Fungus Gnat, Shore Fly)

Because coco substrate is organic it slowly decomposes in its wet state. This causes the release of nitrates as part of the decomposition process. There’s not much wrong with this as long as the nitrate release is minimal (which it is). However, this nitrate release is what attracts Sciaradae (fungus gnat). Sciaradae are commonly found in organic composting material. Therefore, coco substrate can be a highly effective attractive media for Sciaradae.

Sciaradae, shore flies or fungus gnats are often present in conjunction with pythium. Fungus gnats feed on rotting vegetation and other decomposing organic material. It is not certain whether fungus gnats are drawn to crops that are suffering pythium because of the presence of decomposing organic material or whether fungus gnat is responsible for introducing the pythium. It is more likely that the fungus gnats are attracted to rotting vegetation that is inhabited by pythium fungi (oospores). The gnat larvae (1-2mm white maggots with black heads) can live on a diet of pythium oospores before some of them mature into the flying stage (adults) and carry fungi to other crops. This means the presence of the fungus gnat could be a precursor to a pythium outbreak in your crop.

Other than this, Sciaradae larvae are laid by the adults in the growing medium and their food source largely consists of the roots of the plants and decomposing material.

Adult Sciaradae resemble tiny fruit flies. When they are put under a magnifier their wings can be seen to have, what look like, accentuated veins. Sciaridae have a life cycle of egg, larvae, puparium, and adult. While the adult flies will only live a few days, one female fly can lay as many as 200 eggs. The lifecycle from egg to adult can be estimated at 3-4 weeks. For this reason infestations occur at a rapid rate.

Sciaridae eggs are laid around the soil/media surface. These hatch into glossy, legless larvae with black heads. The larvae are equipped with a sharp pair of mandibles, which are used for sawing and rasping into the soft stems and roots of the plants.

Controlling Sciaradae

Pesticides: I have found that after using numerous approaches and products (biological and pesticide) the Permethrin based products (Coopex, Axe etc) are the most effective treatment for totally eradicating Sciaradae from the crop. Permethrin is non systemic and and degradates (neutralises) quickly which makes it ideal as it is not up taken by the plant in any way.

The product I typically work with is Coopex WP 250g/kg powder which comes in 25gram sachets. Coopex is manufactured by Bayer and is widely available in most countries. Mix one sachet to 10 litres, hand water (drench) the media and leave for an hour. After this, flush with pH adjusted nutrient and you are ready to go.

Yellow sticky traps hung at media height will trap the adult Sciaradae. This will help reduce numbers. More importantly it will allow you to monitor whether Sciaridae are present in the growing environment.

Tip (About Sciaradae)

Look out for:

Signs of the pest through the use of yellow sticky traps

Deformed leaves and generally unwell plants can indicate an infestation of Sciaradae

(I use a product called Gnatrol that works well and is natural)

aeviaanah · Mar 1, 2010

a good way to kill adults is to have a container with vinegar and a couple drops of dish soap dissolved. they go to take a drink and then die.

remember i had the curled leaves problem jberry? i think you were saying it was a heat issue. it was fungus gnats. i had them my whole grow not knowing they were chewing on roots. you can imagine a clone with the few roots they have and a couple of gnats chewing on the leaves. it really distresses them. once the plant gets big enough they can grow more roots than the gnats can eat thus making it not as noticeable of a problem. last few posts are good ones. ty

#1Raiderfan420 · Mar 2, 2010

Great info Berry!! I am one of those guys that waters his coco coir. I hand water 5 gallon pots every other day with 20% run-off and have ahd amazing results when compared to my soil buddies. As for the gnats, I have tried everything you mentioned and the best thing I have found is SucraSheild. I must say I haven't tried the gnatrol yet, but the shop I go to is ordering me some this week.
Thanks for the great info man, I will you through you soem rep when it lets me again.

Masterofgenetics · Mar 2, 2010

Sorry about the quality of the pics I need to learn how to resize them to make them larger or learn how to use my camera better but here is some little buds I harvested yesterday.. And pics of my veg

Masterofgenetics · Mar 2, 2010

One easy way I have found to control them is to use Misquito dunks you can buy them at home depot they are safe to use in hydro systems and in soil or coco. You just chop them up in a coffee grinder then add it on top of your medium or mix it in when your making the soil.. So many people have problems with gnats but them are one of the easiest pest to get rid of..

jberry said:
Coco Substrate and Sciaradae (Fungus Gnat, Shore Fly)

Because coco substrate is organic it slowly decomposes in its wet state. This causes the release of nitrates as part of the decomposition process. There’s not much wrong with this as long as the nitrate release is minimal (which it is). However, this nitrate release is what attracts Sciaradae (fungus gnat). Sciaradae are commonly found in organic composting material. Therefore, coco substrate can be a highly effective attractive media for Sciaradae.

Sciaradae, shore flies or fungus gnats are often present in conjunction with pythium. Fungus gnats feed on rotting vegetation and other decomposing organic material. It is not certain whether fungus gnats are drawn to crops that are suffering pythium because of the presence of decomposing organic material or whether fungus gnat is responsible for introducing the pythium. It is more likely that the fungus gnats are attracted to rotting vegetation that is inhabited by pythium fungi (oospores). The gnat larvae (1-2mm white maggots with black heads) can live on a diet of pythium oospores before some of them mature into the flying stage (adults) and carry fungi to other crops. This means the presence of the fungus gnat could be a precursor to a pythium outbreak in your crop.

Other than this, Sciaradae larvae are laid by the adults in the growing medium and their food source largely consists of the roots of the plants and decomposing material.

Adult Sciaradae resemble tiny fruit flies. When they are put under a magnifier their wings can be seen to have, what look like, accentuated veins. Sciaridae have a life cycle of egg, larvae, puparium, and adult. While the adult flies will only live a few days, one female fly can lay as many as 200 eggs. The lifecycle from egg to adult can be estimated at 3-4 weeks. For this reason infestations occur at a rapid rate.

Sciaridae eggs are laid around the soil/media surface. These hatch into glossy, legless larvae with black heads. The larvae are equipped with a sharp pair of mandibles, which are used for sawing and rasping into the soft stems and roots of the plants.

Controlling Sciaradae

Pesticides: I have found that after using numerous approaches and products (biological and pesticide) the Permethrin based products (Coopex, Axe etc) are the most effective treatment for totally eradicating Sciaradae from the crop. Permethrin is non systemic and and degradates (neutralises) quickly which makes it ideal as it is not up taken by the plant in any way.

The product I typically work with is Coopex WP 250g/kg powder which comes in 25gram sachets. Coopex is manufactured by Bayer and is widely available in most countries. Mix one sachet to 10 litres, hand water (drench) the media and leave for an hour. After this, flush with pH adjusted nutrient and you are ready to go.

Yellow sticky traps hung at media height will trap the adult Sciaradae. This will help reduce numbers. More importantly it will allow you to monitor whether Sciaridae are present in the growing environment.

Tip (About Sciaradae)

Look out for:

Signs of the pest through the use of yellow sticky traps

Deformed leaves and generally unwell plants can indicate an infestation of Sciaradae

(I use a product called Gnatrol that works well and is natural)

dingbang · Mar 2, 2010

This is a great thread with an amazing amount of helpful knowledge.

So I am planning a new coco grow and was considering Technaflora Pura Vida 2 part nutrients. Anybody have any experience or input regarding this product?

jberry · Mar 2, 2010

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]got a GUARANTEED ANALYSIS for the pura vida? or a npk?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

dingbang · Mar 2, 2010

jberry said:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]got a GUARANTEED ANALYSIS for the pura vida? or a npk?
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Cut and pasted from a Technaflora dealers site.
Technaflora Pura Vida Organics Grow 6-4-3

Technaflora Pura Vida Organics Bloom 2-6-6

Formulated from various plants materials and subjected to a fermentation process, Pura Vida Organics Grow and Bloom contain sufficient organic nitrogen (N), phosphorous (P), along with essential micronutrients to sustain rapid, aggressive growth during the vegetative stage and to produce abundant fragrant flowers and mature fruit during the flowering/fruiting stages. Pura Vida Organics Grow specifically targets the vegetative growth phase rapidly creating lush green foliage, while Pura Vida Organics Bloom is formulated to promote and maximize the flowering and fruiting performance of plants during the reproductive stage.

jberry · Mar 2, 2010

the grow formula might work for grow and bloom (as long as the grow doesnt have hormones or stimulants that would effect the bloom cycle), but the bloom formulas ratios are a bit wrong for growing in coco. You want the ratio to be lower in K because the coco generates a large amount on its own... you also are going to want more calcium and magnesium than usual when growing in coco so you would probably want to supplement with a cal/mag product.

the fact that it says its for soil or hydro is kinda scary because sometimes multi products like that are high in ammonium nitrate for its use in soil, but it is not desired in a hydro formula... if you are using a drain to waste system and watering frequently enough with decent run off, then you would probably be okay... but another problem is sometimes those universal products are low in or missing micro nutrients hoping that you will have them in your soil or water source OR so you are forced to buy their supplements.

Cutting edge solutions makes a complete 3 part nutrient that is used for growth and bloom that can be used in soil or hydro but was aimed at hydro so it is very low in ammonium nitrate and i would consider using that if the pura verde doesnt work out or doesnt contain the micros... another one that gives good results is House & Garden's Coco's A/B two part formula... almost all hydro products are way overpriced but are fairly easy to use and find... cutting edge is priced good when compared to others but using the entire line of H&G would most likely give you larger yields.

dingbang · Mar 2, 2010

Thank you very much jberry.
I was considering the Canna Coco A&B also. What would you suggest between that and the H&G A&B?
I have both MagiCal and Sweet already and was hoping that I would only need another two part nutrient program to complete my system.

And another question, will the K levels already present in coco increase when I reuse it on consecutive grows?

Thanks again, you are saving me a lot of money and headaches by sharing your experience and I really appreciate it.

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