Cloning: do mothers pass along age?

Apomixis

Active Member
Am not sure how it's a myth..

Measuring Genetic Drift

The magnitude of genetic drift depends on N[SUB]e[/SUB], the effective population size, for the population. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is rarely the actual number of individuals in the population (also called N or the census size). N[SUB]e[/SUB] is a theoretical number that represents the number of genetically distinct individuals that contribute gametes to the next generation. N[SUB]e[/SUB] can also be thought of as the number of genetically distinct interbreeding individuals in a population. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is not easy to quantify because it is affected by reproduction and breeding strategies (inbreeding, outcrossing, asexual reproduction), and is dependent on the geographical area over which a population is sampled. N[SUB]e[/SUB] is not easy to define for fungal pathogens that undergo a mixture of sexual and asexual reproduction because the absolute number of individuals can be very large while the number of different genotypes that sexually recombine can be relatively small. An analysis of field populations of the wheat pathogen Mycosphaerella graminicola indicated N[SUB]e[/SUB] of at least 70 strains per square meter (Zhan et al., 2001).

We can calculate how much genetic drift we expect to find in a population if we know the effective population size. The expected variance in the frequency of an allele (call this frequency p) subject to genetic drift is:

Var (p) =
after one generation of genetic drift for diploid organisms.

After many generations of genetic drift, an equilibrium will be reached. At equilibrium we expect that:

Var (p) = p[SUB]0[/SUB]q[SUB]0[/SUB]

Where p[SUB]0 [/SUB]and q[SUB]0[/SUB] are the initial frequencies of the two alleles at a locus.

If p[SUB]0[/SUB]=q[SUB]0[/SUB]=0.5 and N[SUB][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/SUB] = 50 then Var (p) = 0.0025

The standard deviation of (p) = (0.0025)[SUP]0.5[/SUP] = 0.05.

The standard deviation is the average absolute value of the expected difference among populations after one generation of drift and is approximately equal to the expected change in allele frequency (
p) within each population. Thus in a population of 50 individuals, with two alleles beginning at equal frequencies, we expect the allele frequencies to change by about 5% each generation.

The degree of change increases as the population size decreases.

If p[SUB][SIZE=-1]0[/SIZE][/SUB]=q[SUB][SIZE=-1]0[/SIZE][/SUB]=0.5 and N[SUB][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/SUB] = 5 then Var (p) = 0.05

The standard deviation of (p) = (0.05)[SUP][SIZE=-1]0.5[/SIZE][/SUP] = 0.22

In this case, a population that has only five individuals is expected to experience random changes in allele frequencies of about 22% each generation.
Not to contradict, but genetic drift is a mechanism of breeding populations, as described above. This doesn't apply to cuttings. There is no genetic drift from generation to generation of clones, its the same material. Therefore, a clone shows no sign of 'genetic drift'. Any difference in vigor has got to be attributable to environmental factors.
Some folks say that, for whatever reason, clones taken from clones, taken from clones, etc will result in a less vigorous plant, though there is no physiological explanation for it yet. Somehow, I believe it happens, imagine an MJ plant that grows the length of all those clones (imagine all the clones were somehow still attached to mama) its just not natural... Maybe it's something to do with telomeres... I don't know.
 
Ok, so based on what you guys are saying, is that "we" (the members in this forum) believe in what several other threads on "googl" are calling "Genetic Drift" or a decline in potency correct? If this is true, does this mean that so long as I keep the orginial seedling as a mother, I can take cuttings of the same quality indefinitely?
Only if shes kept healthy.Ive had mothers for 3 years and after so long Ive found it hard to keep them healthy.Chimera just lost a cali orange plant that was over 22 years old. ive have seen genetic drift only when the mom becomes sick.....
 

Figong

Well-Known Member
Not to contradict, but genetic drift is a mechanism of breeding populations, as described above. This doesn't apply to cuttings. There is no genetic drift from generation to generation of clones, its the same material. Therefore, a clone shows no sign of 'genetic drift'. Any difference in vigor has got to be attributable to environmental factors.
Some folks say that, for whatever reason, clones taken from clones, taken from clones, etc will result in a less vigorous plant, though there is no physiological explanation for it yet. Somehow, I believe it happens, imagine an MJ plant that grows the length of all those clones (imagine all the clones were somehow still attached to mama) its just not natural... Maybe it's something to do with telomeres... I don't know.
Yes, it can happen.. it's directly affected in diploids by UV-A/B/C.. which pretty much comprises indoor/outdoor grows(to some extent). (Earlier I found it mentioned with a few MIT PhD final project papers and models w/diagrams)
 

Figong

Well-Known Member
Only if shes kept healthy.Ive had mothers for 3 years and after so long Ive found it hard to keep them healthy.Chimera just lost a cali orange plant that was over 22 years old. ive have seen genetic drift only when the mom becomes sick.....
Ouch @ 22 year mother gone.. must have been a hell of a super-mother.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is the same age. Which is why you can't (realistically) clone auto flowers.

You can however keep regulars in veg indefinitely.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Only if shes kept healthy.Ive had mothers for 3 years and after so long Ive found it hard to keep them healthy.Chimera just lost a cali orange plant that was over 22 years old. ive have seen genetic drift only when the mom becomes sick.....
So true. So hard to keep a healthy mother for years. And good luck on the race this weekend Dale Jr., how do u think u will do?
 

Apomixis

Active Member
Yes, it can happen.. it's directly affected in diploids by UV-A/B/C.. which pretty much comprises indoor/outdoor grows(to some extent). (Earlier I found it mentioned with a few MIT PhD final project papers and models w/diagrams)
Now that I agree with. Mutation is one form of genetic drift that someone might see in one way or another when dealing with large cloned populations. What you originally posted was more directed towards breeding populations. But, good point, especially for those who deliberately use UV lights to enhance their grows... This could be a factor down the line. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
Holy GRAIL KUSH, man you guys took off on this forum lol. Any how I have been doing a bit more research into the idea of genetics drifting from the original plant. As it stands a clone of a plant is exactly identical to its mother, no matter how many generations removed it is from the original. This holds true so long as all things are kept constant (stress levels, nutes, TLC, etc...) However, if the DNA in a clone becomes damaged, it will pass on this "mutation" to its clone offspring which can ultimately lead to a slightly different plant many generations removed from the original.

A lot of people that claim that they have experienced a genetic drift, are slightly confused by the terms they are using. This inevitably has lead to the Fact vs Myth arguments that have started to take place here. In all reality it is a case of misunderstanding and semantics (only some use the wrong terminology during their postulation).

So what does this mean? It means that there is no genetic drift in asexual propagation also known as Cloning. Thus, any and all clones or clones of clones are identical to the original mother, regardless of how many generations removed. Genetic drift does occur, however, only in sexual propagation (seeds) due to the mixing of different genetic allels being contributed to the next generation by both parents.

Coming full circle now, we can see that the "drift" experienced by some people, is not the same as a "genetic drift" that is played out in sexual propagation. What is experienced is the continued lineage of a mutation due to damaged DNA in the plant that has been passed along to each consecutive generation. These mutations may occur, and they may not depending on the care given to each generation of plants. Should mutations occur, they are played out on a much slower scale then what is seen in humans/animals due to plants having a slower metabolism. SO, again please refer to one of my prior post,

++ Rep, from the additional searching I have been doing the argument for generation drift is that some (albeit fewer than most) people have experienced a degradation in their plants potency and or vigor over the course of the cloning regime. However, the growers experiencing the degradation of their lineage have not taken into account, nor have they provided evidence that one or all of several factors have not contributed to the loss of potency and or vigor, those factors are:

1.) the clones were taken from a unhealthy mother, be it nut deficiencies or disease
2.) the clones that are taken from unhealthy mother plants, are not corrected via proper nutes and TLC, and these problems are passed to the next generation or the diseased plants are not being disposed of and pass this disease along to their cuttings through genetics.
3.) the generation of clones experiencing degradation are not experiencing generational drift (this only occurs sexual propagation) are in fact mutations due to damaged DNA code
4.) Unstable genetics are expressed with the age of the plants lineage, thus leading to the degradation of vigor and "potency"

So, in myth buster fashion I deem the mutational drift, also misused as "genetic drift"

Now, I am not going to post all the links i have been rummaging though, however i will leave you with a few of the more important ones that have aided me in this quest for knowledge;

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/questions/question/3117/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_propagation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_methods_in_plant_breeding_based_on_mode_of_reproduction

Keep it green,

Juan
 

tw1st3dm3ntal1ty

Active Member
Please enlighten me as to where im wrong. I personally have smoked bud from clones that were cloned from clones and it sucked. Ive also smoked weed from that same clones original mother, and yes it does degrade the strain. Its a fact. The farther away from the mother the less genetics it keeps of it. Making it farther from the original strain. Please prove to me how im wrong....
if a clone is a genetic replica wouldnt it have the same genes as the mother regardless? u said "the farther away from the mother the less genetics its keeps of it" but if that were true wouldnt it ultimately cease to exsist as a physical living obect because it had no DNA, and how would it be farther from the original strain if it was the same DNA and no new DNA being introduced?
 

Figong

Well-Known Member
if a clone is a genetic replica wouldnt it have the same genes as the mother regardless? u said "the farther away from the mother the less genetics its keeps of it" but if that were true wouldnt it ultimately cease to exsist as a physical living obect because it had no DNA, and how would it be farther from the original strain if it was the same DNA and no new DNA being introduced?
It would have DNA... it's just that the allele pairings @ locus may very well be mis-paired.. replaced, or otherwise changed based on any of a few conditions that could cause deletion/substitution/etc.
 

6ftbunch

Member
ive been taking clones from clone for years. started with a clone, grew her big, took some cutting from her, threw her into flower, and repeat. in my opinion the bud has gottin better but probably only because ive improved the growing conditions over the time. ive learned how this strain grows.
Exactly! this is the same thing I would say. and do as well
 

EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
Their is def. no doubt that cloning a clone and so on and so on will ruin the genetics of the plant. The further away you get from the original genetics of the mother the worse the strain gets, ruining potency and growth potential. I will never clone a clone, ever. Id rather go buy clones or just start over from seed. Just my two.....
Not true. it even SOUNDS ridiculous if you think about it. A clone is a 100% exact copy. If it is cared for well it will be 100% the same. Only clone the healthiest plants and you will be fine. Otherwise tissue culture where clones from clones x1000's wouldnt work because the clones are cloned so much so fast it would ruin the plants.
 

drcucumber

Well-Known Member
i am newbie ganja grower, but I have a genetics degree.
I am too much of a stoner to read this whole thread, and I don't know why it is 8 pages long, but the answer is yes. A clone is the same age as mother.

'Genetic drift' is a term applied to populations, whereby the frequency of a gene in a population will 'drift' closer to 0 or 1 by random sampling, rather than selection. Genetic drift is not relevant to this topic.
 

roseypeach

Well-Known Member
If you keep a mother plant you should be able to keep taking cuttings off of her for a long time and she will be just fine, if you keep her healthy.

I don't know if this is true, but from what I have read if you take a cutting, from a cutting, from a cutting, (and so on) that can weaken the strain. I would like to here others opinion about that.

You made me think of that movie "Multiplicity" Michael Keaton's character clones himself twice, then the clones get a new clone and he is NOT the sharpest tool in the shed LMAO
 

6ftbunch

Member
i am newbie ganja grower, but I have a genetics degree.
I am too much of a stoner to read this whole thread, and I don't know why it is 8 pages long, but the answer is yes. A clone is the same age as mother.

'Genetic drift' is a term applied to populations, whereby the frequency of a gene in a population will 'drift' closer to 0 or 1 by random sampling, rather than selection. Genetic drift is not relevant to this topic.
maybe explain further by telling them what you mean by a gene will drift closer to 0 or 1 can you give an example?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Nerds! ;)

No seriously, interesting topic. It's one of those things that people parrot without really knowing why it happens. Some commercial growers here do 'not clone cloned clones' as on a larger scale it quickly becomes noticable that the yield per plant decreases. Never heard the word genetics drop in that same context though. Breeders change genetics. The whole point of taking cuttings is to reproduce the same plant because of its genetics.
 
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