Clone only strains

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Fatfingering my tablet, so will keep it short: read my posts on the last page of that cubing a myth thread. :)

Although chimera already somewhat corrected himself, he didn't include the key info in his explanation, he is referring to plant (singular) where it has to be plants.

That's some great info in that thread. Good stuff.... Thanks for sharing.

So, if an ammeter such as myself wanted to attempt to reproduce a specific female plant in seed form would cubing (as you outlined) be the best way to go about it?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
ok, back at PC. Let me just copy and paste the post, it's long... but most important is the first sentence and the 3 different types of backcrossing at the end. The other two posts are essentially what inspired me to write the Backcross your own variety thread here in the breeders forum: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/

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What's the best method depends on the specific goals. Back crossing populations (what cubing basically is) is not some new technique, it's been documented nearly 50 years ago already and a very common method in modern plant breeding. It has its specific purposes which is kind of what I wanted to show. Cubing is still in a way "best to best and cull the rest" with the difference that one of those "best" is the same homozygous plant every generation and the other best are multiple plants. Instead of selecting genotypes you manipulate the gene frequency. Instead of selecting AA, you increase the number of A genes in a population, and hence the chance of two AA's being combined instead of Aa or aa.

"Best to best and cull the rest" is population breeding, also known as recurrent selection breeding (you hunt for and select the best phenos every run). The goal there is to increase uniformity while still retaining a wide heterozygous gene pool (i.e. prevent inbreeding depression and increase the survival chance of the population). "Best to best and cull the rest" is what farmers have done for thousands of years. It's what the pioneers had to do and still applies well to acclimatizing and beefing up land races or an existing strain. It's basically what happens in nature too, the weak and ugly don't get to mate.

While population breeding reduces phenotype variation to the better ones and can lead to a strain uniform enough for growing, for a true bred IBL one needs to go a few steps further, and reduce genotype variation too.

Since about a hundred years ago plant we (mankind) use "modern plant breeding" techniques (partly based on Mendel's work). I can't put this any other way than: that's what breeding is about for nearly a hundred years. The real F1 hybrids and true bred homozygous lines used to create those are a result of that, fruits, veggies, ornamental plants, cows and pigs. Unlike heirlooms. Cannabis industry is a different story.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the old brute force methods don't work or can't lead to excellent results. Population breeding will by itself however not lead to a true homozygous variety (by genotype and not just phenotype). I'll spare you the punnet examples, but it's related to the Hardy Weinberg principle, and is natures way of ensuring variation. To create a "new" stable homozygous strain/variety, a stable "line" would have to be created from the population by selecting individual plants, or back crossing to an already stable line. One is not supposed to stabilize an F1 hybrid but their parents. A proper F1 hybrid has no pheno variation. In reality, in the cannabis industry, they often do, because people don't start out with homozygous IBLs.

To create true F1 hybrids (that actually express heterosis aka hybrid vigor) two different stable homozygous lines are needed. To create a stable homozygous line through sibling mating you need to lock in traits, as in breed them true, as in make them homozygous. To have all homozygous offspring (making it a truebred) you need to cross homozygous with homozygous. This means having to select two plants with genotype AA instead of one or two Aa for example, which in case of complete dominance will both be the same pheno type. This requires really getting to know your plants as in how their traits inherit. This in turn allows you to predict the outcome of crossing two plants.

Obviously that is a lot of work, it requires what is called 'intense' selection and usually involves test crosses just to see how certain traits inherit. Trying to breed one or more traits true every generation. Cubing 'can' be a sort of brute force method to achieve similar results.

When you start breeding it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing, whether you create an F1 hybrid or go for backcrossing a new variety, homozygous IBLs are sort of mandatory. You can either use someone else's, or create your own. Cubing is a feasible way to create one with a relatively small amount of plants. Create another one and you can create a proper F1 hybrid.

I've had similar discussions in which this came up before so I will add up front: no, this is not just some academic theory, in fact, it's what many breeders who never even heard of Mendel already intuitively partly do. Although there are genes and traits that don't follow Mendel's "simple rules of inheritance", as in there are always exceptions, modern plant breeding is as tried and true as it gets.

To sum it up without punnet examples:

Back crossing to save genes in seed form.
- Backcross to a recurrent parent to end up with seeds that have 94% or more of the GENES of the recurrent parent, but not necessarily the GENOTYPES. For example to save the genes of a clone-only strain in seed form. The main (valid) reason for a clone-only strain however is that it's heterozygous and you don't have the parents to recreate it. This method of back crossing will not automatically lead to breeding traits true, as in homozygous, and it will still have genotype and some phenotype variety for the heterozygous genotypes that are in the recurrent parent (similar to the result of selfing an F1, but per trait). No matter how often you cross back. This method is common in the cannabis industry. It can lead to stable for growing (not a lot of pheno variation) but not necessarily stable for breeding (that goes for "best to best and cull the rest too). Some images to illustrate what happens: http://www.extension.org/pages/3244...pulations-and-backcross-breeding#.VE5xr4t4pbw

Back crossing a specific trait into an existing line
- Backcross to a recurrent parent to end up with seeds that look most like that recurrent parent but with a trait of the donor parent. In this case you backcross one or more traits from a clone-only (or special pheno you found) to an IBL / stable line. So you backcross the clone-only trait to the IBL instead of backcrossing to the clone-only. This is most applicable when the clone only has just one or few special traits of interest, (similar to the example in the link in my first post above). Auto genes is a good example, but also if you find a special pheno in a bag of land race seeds this is more effective than trying to acclimatize and beef up the land race (for which large population breeding would be more suitable). I have no idea how many cannabis breeders use this method, but it's the common method of backcrossing outside the cannabis industry. If you want to "borrow" a trait from another strain (PM resistance for example), you don't actually want mix the two strains as typical in cross and sibling mating but breed that trait and as little of the rest of the genes into the other strain.

Back crossing as in cubing a population.
- In short, when you back cross a population (in this context simply meaning more than a couple of plants) to a recurrent parent, the offspring (from those plants combined) will become more homozygous for all traits that are homozygous in the recurring parent. That's why it's important to back cross to a homozygous plant, instead of for example an F1 clone, but the key part is to use multiple plants from the offspring to cross back to the recurrent parent. For example, if the recurrent parent is a male, grow out 30 females, pollinate a small bud on all, get the seeds from the best ones (obviously those that show the desired traits most prominently), let's say 10 plants, pick 30 females from that, and pollinate with the same male again. The more plants (and the more seeds you pick from each), the less generations it will take to reach that point of being 90+% homozygous. Instead of using 1 male and many females, you could use 1 female and many males (and simply mix the pollen before pollinating that recurrent female). Downside is you get less bud, upside is you can cramp a LOT of males in a small space.

Essentially both the first and third method are about manipulating the gene frequency, but unlike the first, the third method (cross multiple plants from the offspring back to a homozygous plant) will increase the desired genotype frequency. The third still "also" increases the gene frequency (especially if you select out the once with the undesired traits, like the easy to spot recessive aa when AA is desired) which in turn increases the chances of ending up with homozygous alleles.

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shishkaboy

Well-Known Member
I actually am running a backcross project. As we speak. I had a bagseed mom that was fire, was gifted a stinky TGA male. So I wanted to create something of my own. First generation was all over the place, almost each plant was its own pheno. Selected a father leaning female. I am at the stage of the first backcross, by saving the original pollen from the querkle male and testing his offspring, I feel I can pretty safely predict what these offspring will be like. But, theres only one way to find out.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I really don't know much about it. It may not be the best way to breed per se, but wouldn't it give you the best chance to lock down a specific females characteristics in regular seed form? Each successive backcross would carry with it more and more of the mothers genetics.
Yes, that last part is what it's about. It's however specifically the 'genes' and not necessarily the genotypes, so every time you cross back to the recurrent parent the offspring gets half of the genetics of that recurrent parent, but the individual genes of her genetics do not necessarily end up in the same combination. Those combinations specifically result in the characteristics you aim to save.

So, if an ammeter such as myself wanted to attempt to reproduce a specific female plant in seed form would cubing (as you outlined) be the best way to go about it?
Any of the three of the backcross methods above could apply if you can run more than a couple of males. Which one is largely preference and depends on what you got to work with. It's a bit of a catch 22, it works best when the recurrent parent happens to be homozygous/stable/true bred for many of its traits already. That's not the case for an F1. That's typically not the case for a plant that exists in clone-only either. The very (valid theoretic) reason a strain exist in clone only is to save the specific (heterozygous) combinations of genes that cannot easily be reproduced in seeds, like IBLs.

Point is backcrossing to a clone-only is usually a bad idea if the goal is to end up with a stable line (never going to happen for traits that are heterozygous in the female, at most it would be reduced to two main pheno types for those traits). However, while in no case will you end up with seeds that all produce that specific female as it does when cloning, that doesn't mean the end result will be less and there will be plants amongst the offspring that resemble her very much. Even after one backcross generation there can be such plants given enough candidates and depending on the genetic make up. So if the goal is to create seeds in which you can find the same pheno you may not have to cube it all the way and one or two bx generations may suffice.

In any case you obviously need to cross the female with a male (assuming reg) to create that first generation of the population. For that I would use one of the parents, doesn't have to be the same plant, but preferably same generation same breeder. If that one seems rather stable, you could consider as an alternative to backcross the best traits of the female you got into one of those. I described both directions in that backcrossing thread here at riu. Using something older in the lineage will prevent both narrowing and widening the profile more than needed, and then if after a few bx generations there's still too much variety you can still do a couple of sibling mating generations to stabilize it further.

When you already grow from regular seed, it's not really that much extra effort. Instead of discarding males asap, strip them (defoliate, lollipop and prune :) ) and harvest some pollen from for example 1 ball of all of them in the same container, mix it up, and pollinate the plant you want to get in seed form. Grow out the offspring, collect pollen from the males, and pollinate that same plant again. You will end up with a fairly uniform batch of seeds that is made from the same genes as the recurring parent, and if that parent was homozygous for many traits, many plants of the resulting cubed batch of seeds will be suitable as breeding stock, to create hybrids, or backcross other traits into (auto, purple, more frost, mutations, etc).
 

mdjenks

Well-Known Member
Did this thread dry up overnight?

@Dr.D81: You moving to portland? where are you moving from? the Bay Area?

When I lived in Seattle I went to Portland a lot to visit friends and always loved it there.

The Doug Fir Lounge is a great place to see a live band. In Seattle I would suggest the Showbox on 1st Street across from pike place market.
When I lived in San Francisco I always liked the Fillmore and Warfield and when I lived in Vegas I always like the Joint in the HardRock Hotel and Casino you could always see great bands in a small venue but the House of Blues at Mandalay Bay was also good.

IMO the best places for herb in the states is San Francisco, L.A., Portland, Seattle, Las Vegas and Denver.

I've heard NYC has a good scene but my only friend that lives there does not indulge in the medicine.

My two good friends that have been to Amsterdam say the commercialized dutch bud is good but not as good as american bud these days. I would have to say the same about Vancouver B.C., you can get good bud there and smoke out at the Amsterdam Cafe but IMO the bud in the states is far better.
 
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Joedank

Well-Known Member
this sums up how some feel about cubing nicely :https://www.rollitup.org/t/chimera-on-the-myth-of-cubing-backcrossing-from-mrnice-nl.714597/

i still reserve the right to see for myself weather cubing is a myth or not...
from another chimera quote: 'Backcrossing will not stabilize a strain at all- it is a technique that SHOULD be used to reinforce or stabilize a particular trait, but not all of them.

For e.g.- G13 is a clone, which I would bet my life on is not true breeding for every, or even most traits- this means that it is heterozygous for these traits- it has two alleles (different versions of a gene). No matter how many times you backcross to it, it will always donate either of the two alleles to the offspring. This problem can be compounded by the fact that the original male used in the cross (in this case hashplant) may have donated a third allele to the pool- kinda makes things even more difficult!
 

Bad Karma

Well-Known Member
Did this thread dry up overnight?

@Dr.D81: You moving to portland? where are you moving from? the Bay Area?

When I lived in Seattle I went to Portland a lot to visit friends and always loved it there.

The Doug Fir Lounge is a great place to see a live band. In Seattle I would suggest the Showbox on 1st Street across from pike place market.
When I lived in San Francisco I always liked the Fillmore and Warfield and when I lived in Vegas I always like the Joint in the HardRock Hotel and Casino you could always see great bands in a small venue but the House of Blues at Mandalay Bay was also good.

IMO the best places for herb in the states is San Francisco, L.A., Portland, Seattle, Las Vegas and Denver.

I've heard NYC has a good scene but my only friend that lives there does not indulge in the medicine.

My two good friends that have been to Amsterdam say the commercialized dutch bud is good but not as good as american bud these days. I would have to say the same about Vancouver B.C., you can get good bud there and smoke out at the Amsterdam Cafe but IMO the bud in the states is far better.
I visited Amsterdam in early 2006 during my honeymoon. Their buds were good, but California has them beat, hands down.
 

shishkaboy

Well-Known Member
this sums up how some feel about cubing nicely :https://www.rollitup.org/t/chimera-on-the-myth-of-cubing-backcrossing-from-mrnice-nl.714597/

i still reserve the right to see for myself weather cubing is a myth or not...
from another chimera quote: 'Backcrossing will not stabilize a strain at all- it is a technique that SHOULD be used to reinforce or stabilize a particular trait, but not all of them.

For e.g.- G13 is a clone, which I would bet my life on is not true breeding for every, or even most traits- this means that it is heterozygous for these traits- it has two alleles (different versions of a gene). No matter how many times you backcross to it, it will always donate either of the two alleles to the offspring. This problem can be compounded by the fact that the original male used in the cross (in this case hashplant) may have donated a third allele to the pool- kinda makes things even more difficult!
I think the only way to try and do it is to handle each trait seperately. Or small groups of traits since they are most likely linked somehow. Heres the thread I started a while back on the whole process.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/mr-soul-of-brothers-grimm-on-cubing.395659/#post-5094280
 

Dr.D81

Well-Known Member
Did this thread dry up overnight?

@Dr.D81: You moving to portland? where are you moving from? the Bay Area?

When I lived in Seattle I went to Portland a lot to visit friends and always loved it there.

The Doug Fir Lounge is a great place to see a live band. In Seattle I would suggest the Showbox on 1st Street across from pike place market.
When I lived in San Francisco I always liked the Fillmore and Warfield and when I lived in Vegas I always like the Joint in the HardRock Hotel and Casino you could always see great bands in a small venue but the House of Blues at Mandalay Bay was also good.

IMO the best places for herb in the states is San Francisco, L.A., Portland, Seattle, Las Vegas and Denver.

I've heard NYC has a good scene but my only friend that lives there does not indulge in the medicine.

My two good friends that have been to Amsterdam say the commercialized dutch bud is good but not as good as american bud these days. I would have to say the same about Vancouver B.C., you can get good bud there and smoke out at the Amsterdam Cafe but IMO the bud in the states is far better.
I am going to the eugene area of OR. I am coming for right of I10 next to the atchafalaya swamp in south LA. I guess it is cool as i have broke down my grow and moms get picked up anyday. I have had both landlords down here take my rent and not pay the note,and have a sister in law move in to my place up in north LA in October and have not pay anything. we are getting the hell out of the south! Plus if i had gotten busted here i would do 30+ in prison and screw that shit.
 

Bigtacofarmer

Well-Known Member
That's some great info in that thread. Good stuff.... Thanks for sharing.

So, if an ammeter such as myself wanted to attempt to reproduce a specific female plant in seed form would cubing (as you outlined) be the best way to go about it?

As I work on my project I am planning on cubing all the great specimens I find. I don't feel it is as good as going f2, f3, f4, etc. But I will have the plant alive to do it on the way and it does not hurt anything to try. I figure every time I run some males, every qualified female will get some too. This way I'll be making many thousand more seeds than I ever intend to use, but if a project takes a wrong turn I should already have all my possible fixes saved in labeled bags.
 

COGrown

Well-Known Member

How official does this one look?
If anyone can tell me what this is, I think I found the real deal.
Its an OG clone only.
Looks like an OG cut or strain to me (kinda tk-ish), but I think that the visual appearance is the least effective way to judge a cut, its the taste/smell and effect that make the originals stand out. If you have one of the originals, you will probably know after you finish it the first or second time, and you will probably want to hang on to it.

Fire OG ?

No clue there is no stamp of approval from Obama though so I am not interested just yet.
Obama Grown Kush?
 

King Arthur

Well-Known Member
Looks like an OG cut or strain to me (kinda tk-ish), but I think that the visual appearance is the least effective way to judge a cut, its the taste/smell and effect that make the originals stand out. If you have one of the originals, you will probably know after you finish it the first or second time, and you will probably want to hang on to it.



Obama Grown Kush?
Obama Approved , socialist medicine only! Must have monsanto seeds and plenty of roundup to keep all those broad mites and drunken whores from playing with the plants.

The plant will give cancer freely and take none away. The new age of the genetically modified marijuna monster called SATAN!
 
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