Claw Leaves

Hi everyone, long time reader first time poster

Until now every question I've had has been easy enough to find the answer to one here, but this one has me stumped.

There's a few plants, in soil, from seed, currently around 3 weeks since they popped, doing well in terms of size/growth generally. .

Around a week in I noticed something I haven't really seen before, this was that my leaves were all very rough in their appearance. The top surface of the leaf usually looks very smooth, but mine appeared very bumpy and rough, although everything else was fine. I'm not sure if this is related to my problem or not.

Anyway, another week goes by like this, and I start to notice signs of 'the claw': leaves beginning to droop at the edges etc. In this last week, the claw has gotten really bad to where all plants are just completely pointing down in claw mode. The bottom leaves are also starting to turn yellow, which I haven't seen this early into growth before. One final thing I noticed, may be unrelated also, but to my eye I don't remember plants in veg throwing out new leaves at such a quick rate when they're so small.

Apologies but I can't provide pics, any help would be much appreciated. Somebody suggested to me previously that it could be over-feeding, but I haven't given any food at all yet as they're in soil (terra pro plus). Also I know the claw is often over-watering, but they are not being over-watered at all. I believe they're 1 gal pots (7") and although they were kept very wet for germination, after transplant to these pots they've only been given water every 2 days (4-5l between 9 plants atm - soil dries out at the top after 2 days). I've used the same methods etc before with no such problems, so this has me confused.

Another person actually advised I may be under-feeding, but without more opinions I am reluctant to flush in case it is a case of under-feeding, and reluctant to feed in case there are too much nutes in teh soil.

Any help would be much appreciated

I use 50% coco soil mix, and barely have to water every 2 days with heavy air flow, and under a 600w. So I'm not sure what your soil mix is like, but that does seem like a lot of watering. Especially if you are watering in the correct measure when you do water.

Without a picture I can really only give possible problems;
Magnesium deficiency
Overwatering (more due to water retention in the soil then to actual consistency)
Possible Nitrogen deficiency (in small measure and probably in congruence with the issues mentioned above)
pH issues causing nute lockout

It's a genetic fuck up. And it can come from too much N. But not in your case. It never ends well. The bud just doesn't frost up the way it should. I would cull it from the rest but that's just me. I don't have room for a plant that isn't going to produce.

Alpha Im also using a 600w, air flow is pretty good imo, passive intakes from outdoors and extractor/filter, oscillating fan hitting the top end part + above the canopy, rotating at all times. Temps are always good in teh day, but do drop a little low at night. Ive switched soil for this one, first time using it, canna terra prop plus. Seems to drain quite well, I check by touch at the tops of the pots, the top layer is usually bone dry after two days, I worry about wilting beyond this as it has happened in the past.

Unfortunately I dont have a ph tester, but will look to get one asap. I havent bothered to get one before as things have always gone well enough without one.

Dannyboy> I am unsure if this would be the case as I am using 3 different strains from 3 breeders and the effect is occuring on all plants They seem to be surviving and in fact growing quite well, but all the growth on each of them is flopping right down.

I'm thinking of trying a weak nute solution asap to see if theres any difference, then flushing in 2 days if there isnt. does this sound appropriate? How about multizyme, could this possibly solve any lockout? Could it cause further problems? Ive usually got it into the routine by now but Im unsure because of the conditions of my girls, generally it provides me with a nice little growth boost but I dont want to push them much at the mo

Sounds like low on nutes and got worse as plant grew bigger, definatly if it was me id hit her with a decent nutes for the stage shes in, a low dose may not solve but merely prolonge the problem plus futher flushing will probably lead to futher faster problems, my 2 cents worth anyway.

Sounds like the plants are cold, maybe their feet are a bit too wet, and maybe fungus gnat larvae feeding on your roots? IDK, tough to call without photos and such. Any bugs flying around that you have noticed? Yellow sticky traps in your room might let you know what else is living in there.

Temps good during day means what exactly? Same for night temps? Top of pots will tell yo nothing about the amount of moisture in the bottom of the pots, possibly drowning your girls' roots. Even a cheapo moisture meter from your local hardware store might help.

Good luck!

from my experience clawing is usually due to to much N or really hot soil. i recently had 4 different strains do this from my own amended soil being to hot.you could try leeching the soil as this helped my girls plenty

Hi guys, thanks for the help so far. Ive decided to do a flush today as there was what looked like nute burn in the first week of their lives, something which does happen a little with young plants in soil from my experience, so I feel its more likely they are too high on N rather than too low. Good flush today, hopefully get rid of most of the nutes still in there I guess, then I can start feeding them myself.

Boxorain> Daytime temps are usually around 24-27 during the day, and night time is usually around 13-17. Occasionally at night it drops to 11ish, due to the cold nights + passive intakes. I used to have a moisture meter but I dont like to poke things into the pot as my roots usually fill the soil right to the top, I dont wanna damage them From past experience if I wait 6-12 hours from when the top is fully crusted, the leaves wilt and drop flat and lifeless, though when this happened a few times (couple years back), watering would revive them within an hour or two. I think I did have a gnat problem with the roots of my past crop, but Im using all new gear so there shouldnt be any cross-contamination. One of the girls from my past crop, whenever watered would take absolutely ages to drain through, and began to have gnats fly out of the soil when watered during the last 2 weeks of flower. I did catch 1 gnat-looking fly in there a week or two ago, small and black. I killed it instantly, and have checked daily since but cant find any others. Are there any signs to look for with relation to the root situation?

Too much nitrogen in your growing mediums or soil will cause myriad problems. One sign of excessive nitrogen is plants will have like an overall DARK green look, often with a slight bluish tint, and have delayed maturity. Due to Nitrogen being involved in vegetative growth, to much nitrogen will result in tall plants with weak stems. New growth will be very lively and plant transpiration will be high. Nitrogen toxicity can be seen when there are very very dry conditions almost as if there was a drought, which may show a burning effect. If you give your plants ammonium based nutrients they may show NH4+ toxicity, which will show a smaller plant growth and lesions that occur on stems and roots, leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves, normally the newer upper ones first, will have “the claw” look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards. Leaves can be twisted when growing… mainly new growths. Roots will be under developed along with the slowing of flowering. Yields will be decreased, because to much nitrogen in early stages of flowering slows down bud growth. Water uptake is slowing down from the vascular breakdown of the plants as well. Vascular damage does not repair itself.

Nitrogen toxicity, and "the claw" is normally the result of overfeeding nitrogen during the vegetative stage of growth, and feeding nitrogen to late in the vegetative stage of growth. A buildup occurs in the growing medium and even though reduced amounts of nitrogen are given once in flower the build up nitrogen in the growing medium is still being taken in by plants, thus they receive too much nitrogen in flower resulting in vascular damage, slow budding and the other problems listed above.

Thank you Brick Top, too much nitrogen in the soil is looking more and more likely. I had a thorough look through them this morn, one plant is becoming very pale, this is also the one with the yellow fan leaves at the bottom. The rest, including others of the same strain as the pale one, appear quite dark indeed. New leaves are popping up quicker than I have ever seen before, and I assume transpiration is high as the humidity levels are staying 50-70 at all times with extractor on full. Usually I need to keep it turned down until flowering.

New growths, despite coming very quick, are very 'floppy' for lack of a better word. The leaves feel limp and are immediately in claw mode, the fingers are usually twisted everywhere whilst small but they straighten out as the leaf grows (though the claw remains).

Flushing today, will let you all know how that goes! Think I'll be flushing this soil before use in the future. .

Whereas i can see how and why some might say over-ferting i disagree (the healthy kind that dosent start any arguments). Terra pro plus is one holy mother for water retaining, i used it and even with 50% perlite it still takes a good few days to dry in between watering. Of course your saying you got the watering right, i'd just like to point this out.

If the soil is too hot for seedlings and small plants, of which in my experience it can be initially but plants grow into it very well and small minor problems really, then the solution for the next grow would be seedling soil and not the terra which of the top of my head is from 800 to 1200 ppm with almost equal amounts NPK, slightly higher on the N. Three weeks with no ferts kinda suggest other problems or not enough ferts.

What approach would you take to it BeefSteak?

I flushed yesterday, half the water I used ran through into a bucket that I chucked at the end, it may just be my eyes but they do look a little more perky, not a major difference at all though. Would it take a few days for them to perk up if the flush is what was needed? Or should I already be looking at alternatives?

Also, I know the terra pro plus has a good amount of nutes in, but my shop people think that by 3 weeks in I should be giving them food. Does the Terra Pro Plus also contain trace elements, or is it just the NPK? Next watering would usually be friday, could probably delay until saturday and add some food if they're still not perked up. Thoughts?

What happene to your pkants after flushing more

This sounds like what is happening to my plants

HELLO ergent help ive started some seeds off and at early stage my soil is pro plus with abit of coco mixed I make a feed at around 5.6 vut the RUNOFF is way higher 7.1 I have tryed halfing my solutions and even lowering the ph but I get a high run off I had to flush at first and gave them time to recover starting it off with this stuff but my plants lookin unhealthy

Same problem I’m having I think this is my first grow. Any help would be much appreciated.

Alpha492 said:

I use 50% coco soil mix, and barely have to water every 2 days with heavy air flow, and under a 600w. So I'm not sure what your soil mix is like, but that does seem like a lot of watering. Especially if you are watering in the correct measure when you do water.

Without a picture I can really only give possible problems;
Magnesium deficiency
Overwatering (more due to water retention in the soil then to actual consistency)
Possible Nitrogen deficiency (in small measure and probably in congruence with the issues mentioned above)
pH issues causing nute lockout

Click to expand...

I'd tend to agree with over watering. Try every 3 days once. If that's ok, try 4 days once. The finger test is only going to work for egregious over watering.