Cheese Yellowing All Over But Getting Contradictory Advice (pics)

Hey all, first time grower here and feeling a bit desperate to be honest.

These 4 plants (cheese clones) are a little under 3 weeks into flower. I had a nasty problem with spidermites in veg but used Vitality + to get rid, that worked perfectly and they've not been back. Now, about 5 weeks later I'm faced with what you see in those pics.

The soil I used is miracle grow, although I'm sorry I did use it now as it seems I have less control over nutes, mg is supposed to feed the plants for 3 months and I wonder if I've got lock out. I use bio-bloom at about 2ml per litre and use a bit of biobiz fish feed used as occasional foliar spray. I use tap water that's been left out for a couple of days in order to allow the chlorine to mostly evaporate. I also started to use Canna Boost, it's after I used Canna Boost that the leaves really started yellowing (I've only used canna boost twice since I started to flower) and I'm wondering if it's canna boost that is raping the leaves of their nutrients in order to feed the flowers? I water every 3 days and feel the weight of the pots to make sure they need it.

In case it was magnesium deficiency I used epsom salts at a rate of 1 teaspoon (not heaped) per litre as I read that if the veins are green and the leaf is yellow it's probably mg and some leaves are like that, I'm wondering if that dosage was enough? I'd rather under-do these things than over-do them you see.

Anyhow, this yellowing is affecting the higher leaves now, if it doesn't stop my plants will die and SO WILL A PART OF ME.....LOL.

I left a 2 litre bottle in those pics so a feel for the size of the plants can be given, also, these are growing in a DS 90, I know it looks a bit cramped but its all I really have space for. The light is 400 watts and I've got a good fan and filter and know for a fact it's not too hot as I can easliy leave my hand under the light without it getting too hot. Those pics don't really show the overall yellowing very well.

Okay, in the title I mention contradicting advice, well, before I posted this I did try to find out the problem myself, I trawled for hours through all the yellowing problem threads and some people say it's lockout and so the leaves are no longer getting their food and then I read it's not enough nutrients so in honesty I've no idea where I stand. I notice a touch of white at the end of the higher leaves, so have I caused lock out and if so do I need to flush to solve the prob?

If so do I flush and then immediately feed with nutes or wait a few days after flushing to feed? After flushing would I also have to add some more epsom salts as miracle grow doesn't contain magnesium? I never knew growing would be such a mine-field.

I seriously hope someone can give me a solution here, I'm at my wits end with it. Also, does anyone think the bud growth for nearly 3 weeks is a little small?

Evey reply will be appreciated.

EDIT- PH is about 6 or just over, I used well known reliable ph paper strips to check. Some of the affected leaves also have brown spots on them.

fuck bro, i read what i could,...but lookin at the pics and the fact your in MG imma say a lock out...on another note, the budds dont look to bad for 3 weeks 12/12, also, iv noticed that FoxFarm BigBloom works GREAT with bio-bizzbloom, not expensive at all, should look into that bro...but i say flush the balls outa them, hope you got a shop/vac to drain that tent!

EDIT: i would say after flushing hit them with 2 tsp Bio-Bloom, and half strength the fish shit....your plants will love you if you get the BigBloom too tho

IMO look for superB max B1 supliment and cal mag start adding that

everyone seems to think right off cause your in MG that cause it has food in it its good enough plants look fairly big could be theres no more food in it also you need to raise your PH to min 6.5 to 7.0

your plants are starving

A number of points come to mind.

1) Your containers are too small for a start to finish soil grow without a lot of supplemental feedings. If you have room I would transplant into something a little bigger with fresh soil mix. And try not to use pots that narrow at the bottom.

2) I think your most specific deficiency at the moment is magnesium. One of the tell-tell signs is extreme yellowing on some leaves while others stay green. Most soil mixes almost never have enough magnesium. I have never seen a bag of soil (1.5 cubic feet or larger) that didn't need a cup of powdered dolomite lime add to it. If you did not add any dolomite, coupled with the fact of such a small amount of soil, I would be shocked if you did not have a magnesium deficiency.

3) Do not get too caught up with the specific deficiency at the moment. As soon as you fix one (such as magnesium) the next least available nutrient will show up. (such as a phosphorus def.) The real fix is to transplant to fresher and larger amount of soil and also feed with a mild dose of a complete hydroponics fertilizer. I use General Hydroponics myself.

4) Do not expect the yellowed leaves to come back. That only happens with nitrogen deficiency. With all other deficiencies the best you can hope for if you fix the problem is that the bad leaves get no worse, and the new growth looks better.


Hope this helps

Good Luck!


Porky

i would say porky has a good point about the pots(rep), but i would not repot them now, it wouldnt e so bad if they were plastic post but they are clay so you cant cut them off, the risk of doing damage and the shock at this stage of flower out weighs the potential of improvement.
you need to get the ph sorted first, make sure your water has a ph of seven, this should balance things up a bit. also porky said about the lime, if i were you i would add some to the top soil. add about 1-2 teaspoons and that will probaly balance all your soil to a ph of 7 which these plants are happy with. it also contains the cal/mag for you future grows put a teaspoon to a gallon of soil.
cut back on the mg foliar, i would say add 1-2 teaspoons to a gallon not a litre. you will also need to top up your micro nutrients so get either alg-a-mic or bioheaven. the food in the soil should be used up by now as theres not much food in the pots. it looks like you are also running short of nitrogen aswell as the other leaves look a bit light green, so i would also add 1ml per feed of bio grow.
as soon as you get your ph sorted out everything else will fall into place, nutrients are getting locked up and it probably has a lot to do with the pots but thats done now. you will also need to freshen the soil up a it which the alg-a-mic takes care off (can be used as a foliar spray). i know its probably been said to you already but if you are going to use any of the bio stuff your better sticking with that brand, grow, bloom, alg, top max in flower. they all work hand in hand. you can get away with grow, bloom ad a micro/boost but i use the whole shibang. there will be some that disagree with me on the range but its horses for courses and it works for me.
this is your first grow and its not supposed to go smoothly, its like sex, it gets a lot better with exp.
good luck with the rest of the grow and if you are unsure of anything always post b4 doing, the lads on here are great at helping new growers.
lu

flush, correct ph,lime, gently back in with the grow-bloom-alg/bioheaven. to sum up.

Sincere thanks to yous all for taking the effort to reply.

Porky, that mag def you mention, won't that epsom salt I added combat it? I added it 4 days ago and as yet it's hard to tell if it's done anything, the yellowing I think is happening more slowly but still happening. If the epsom dosage I put in is too low (one non-heaped teaspoon per litre) should I add another amount of the same dose? What's the difference of effect between using dolomite lime and epsom salts?


Luciferateme, those pots are plastic, would it still be worth me transplanting?

Also, flushing, can anyone advise the best way to do this regarding how much water I use to do it?

you can transplant at any time in Veg and in flower as long as you dont disturb the main root system

i would let them dry out real good and get next pot ready adding light nute mix into pot then placeing it into it filling it all up then watering it all over

as for flushing dont really think you need it should only be done with long vegging plants prior to flowering reason for salt build up
and final flush end of harvest
but i you want to just keep adding ph'd water till it comes out of bottom if you got ppm meter keep monitoring your run off as you flush your ppm reading will lower

Thanks, DrFever.

My tap water ph at the moment is 6, what's the most inexpensive way to get it to 7?

yes if they are plastic then if you can cut them, i thougth they were clay pots(getting old), i thought you might have had prolems turning the pot and plant but if you can cut the pot and try not to damage the roots as fever said then give it a go, i always try to use 15l pots as a minimum.
also the lime contains cal/mag and as it stabilizies the ph to about 7 the uptake of the nutrients is easier. this is why if your ph is out you could chuck loads of nutes/epsom at your plants they wont be able to absorsb it.
also your tap water is 6 but when you add nutes it generally lowers the ph a it.

You're not over the hill yet, Luciferateme, those pots might be plastic but they are also imitation clay, so no need to worry about plastic hip operations and such for a while eh'?. Also, I noticed in your previous post up the top there you did address how to adjust the ph of my soil, for some reason I skipped that line, thanks for the info.

Would this stuff below be the stuff I'll be needing? Garden lime? In your other post you mention the dosage being at one teaspoon to a gallon of soil, do I just sprinkle this lime into the soil or does it go in water?

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=10777729&fh_view_size=10&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_search=lime&fh_eds=ß&fh_refview=search&isSearch=true

Splendid808 said:

Porky, that mag def you mention, won't that epsom salt I added combat it? I added it 4 days ago and as yet it's hard to tell if it's done anything, the yellowing I think is happening more slowly but still happening. If the epsom dosage I put in is too low (one non-heaped teaspoon per litre) should I add another amount of the same dose? What's the difference of effect between using dolomite lime and epsom salts?

Click to expand...

Yes it will help.

I should have been a bit clearer on my point. I think you have multiple deficiencies working in combination with each other. It's just the magnesium thats lacking the most. But if you just try to fix that you will have limited results. (such as you are now getting)

All the suggestions you have got so far are good. And they will all help to one extent or another.

But if you are looking for a silver bullet. And I think you are. Then I think my advice will give you the fastest chance to correct the health of the plants before they get too far in to flower to help much. Trust me on this one, I do this for a living. And this is exactly what I would do......

Step one- buy large bag of Fox Farm Ocean Forest. (just example use your own fav bag of soil)

Step two - buy a bag of powdered dolomite lime. Some stores call it garden lime just make sure it has magnesium not just calcium. The Reason this is better then just Epsom salts is that this will help balance your Ph and it's a good source of calcium as well. Your 6.0 water shouldn't hurt if you have the dolomite mixed in. Use a full cup per 1.5 cubic bag of soil.

Step three - get the biggest/widest pots that will still fit the space. Put some of your new soil mix in the bottom of the pot.

Step four - Now this is where we separate the men from boys. (and women too) I know this is scary for some but I do this all the time. We are going to transplant! I guaranty you, your plants are root bound. Put one hand on top of the plant and flip it upside down. With the other hand pop the pot off. Then gently place in the new pot. Fill in with soil mix.

Step five - Get a complete hydro fert. We are just going to give it one full strength shot. I have always had good results with General Hydroponics but there are a ton of them and any will do. Read the bottle. They all have recommended strengths for flowering or general use. 1-2-3 or 2-2-2. Water throughly with this mix.

Step six - If all goes well new growth should start looking better in 3-4 days.
After that go back to your preferred method of feeding and watering.

Warning! Do not over do it with the hydro fluid.

The whole idea with this approach is to jump start the plant back to health with instant food and new un-depleted soil for the roots to grow into. No bottom growth = no top growth. This is what I call an umbrella approach. It covers a lot of issues at once even if your not sure of the problem.

Wow that turned out long. I tend to go into to much detail when I'm stoned.

hope that helps




Porky

if your in soil you should be flushing atleast every 2 weeks, NO MATTER what....just a little fun fact, i dont think you guys realize whats happening inside the pot of soil, ahha

EDIT: Bio-Bizz is great shit BTW, but like every organic fert it requires more flushing than chem ones

Porky B said:

But if you are looking for a silver bullet. And I think you are. Then I think my advice will give you the fastest chance to correct the health of the plants before they get too far in to flower to help much. Trust me on this one, I do this for a living. And this is exactly what I would do......

Porky

Click to expand...

Man, legendary post. I'll follow that process step by step, it just feels right. I'll post back tomorrow night for update.

Bublonichronic said:

if your in soil you should be flushing atleast every 2 weeks, NO MATTER what....just a little fun fact, i dont think you guys realize whats happening inside the pot of soil, ahha

EDIT: Bio-Bizz is great shit BTW, but like every organic fert it requires more flushing than chem ones

Click to expand...

Bublonichronic, when you flush what exactly do you do? For instance, let's say I start flushing and I see the water start draining out the bottom of the pot how long do I let it flush for before I know the soil's clear? Thanks.

Splendid808 said:

Bublonichronic, when you flush what exactly do you do? For instance, let's say I start flushing and I see the water start draining out the bottom of the pot how long do I let it flush for before I know the soil's clear? Thanks.

Click to expand...

the way i do it is i fill my 14gallon rubbermaid res. with water thats been filtered by a GE charcol filter you get from home depot for like 40$(connects to your hose or under a sink, a must have) and let it bubble over night with airstones, then depending on the size of the pot you have youll wanna give it atleast the same amount of water, so a 3 gal pot gets 3 gal of water(depending on how bad your soil is locked up you might need more, thats why i say evey 2 weeks), it should literally flood your tent, thats why i say get a shop/vac

Try to get dolomite lime as it has a higher proportion of Magnesium versus standard lime. Mix it into your soil before potting, otherwise sprinkle it onto the surface of your medium. The lime should leach into your soil naturally providing it is damp enough (obviously avoid over-watering). It will buffer against the natural acidity of your feed and accumulating salts. Top-feed so that your nutrient solution / balanced water passes over the lime; otherwise I would encourage feeding directed at the bottom of your medium (via a tray, etc.) to encourage root growth.
If you are going to transplant just make sure you are gentle with the roots. Damaging roots can seriously stress your plants.

- Careful with magnesium: too much of it can lock out Calcium and vice versa. Research element antagonism. Try to measure doses in ml if at all possible to aid precision (can you get a liquid form of MgO with consistent concentration/molarity?).
- As magnesium is a mobile element (meaning it can be redistributed within the plant) - like Nitrogen - you should not necessarily discount the possibility of a normal shade of green returning, which Porky asserted to the contrary. But he's essentially right - the focus is on making sure new growth is healthy.
- Lu has good advice: first get the pH sorted out and thereafter very lightly feed to reduce chances of further stress via toxicity/overdose.

edit: didn't see there was a second page! woops... just take whatever you find useful from my post

View attachment 1554062

ta da


Also i noticed noone mention that the brown pots will allow light to get to your roots

Good call. Note Magnesium's relationship with / parallel to Phosphorous. Your plants may be also be missing this.

Bublonichronic said:

if your in soil you should be flushing atleast every 2 weeks, NO MATTER what....just a little fun fact, i dont think you guys realize whats happening inside the pot of soil, ahha

EDIT: Bio-Bizz is great shit BTW, but like every organic fert it requires more flushing than chem ones

Click to expand...

why would you say every 2 weeks if you feed properly you should never have to flush only last week in flower and thats to eliminate any nutes as per bud taste

IMO if you flush every 2 weeks you are takin out micro nutrients and wasting your money more like flushing your food down the drain )

only time a person should flush is when they screwed up and over fertilized there plants or have had there plants for a long time in veg
to get rid of any salt build up thru vegging

i grow from a 3 " clone and in 2 weeks of vegging there into flowering week one feeding is 800- 860 ppm week 2 1200 +
these plants seam to grow with the power of a nuclear power plant )

DrFever said:

why would you say every 2 weeks if you feed properly you should never have to flush only last week in flower and thats to eliminate any nutes as per bud taste

IMO if you flush every 2 weeks you are takin out micro nutrients and wasting your money more like flushing your food down the drain )

only time a person should flush is when they screwed up and over fertilized there plants or have had there plants for a long time in veg
to get rid of any salt build up thru vegging

i grow from a 3 " clone and in 2 weeks of vegging there into flowering week one feeding is 800- 860 ppm week 2 1200 +
these plants seam to grow with the power of a nuclear power plant )

Click to expand...

those plants do look nice no doubt, out of curiosity , how many watts you burnin and about how much do you yeild on average? and what week r they? but anyway, i dont flush food away, my plants eat it all, then the waist left over gotta go...with a flush...im not saying a plant will not grow without being flushed every 2wks, but from what iv noticed, shit grows alot faster, so i imagin shits more accesable