Can I run an LED at 100% if its raised till PAR meter is in tolerance?

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
Hey all. Newbie to the forum and growing.

I just picked up a gavita 1700e for a crazy deal. I can't get the controller till next month.

If I swap in the gavita in my 4x4, can I just raise the light till the light meter reads where it should be, or should I just wait till I get the controller?

I have roughly 4 1/2 feet of clearance over my plants right now. Using the photone app, there seems to be enough space for the ppfd to be in range
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Anyway to check if my phone is accurate? I have a Samsung S20
You can calibrate it against a light meter, a PAR meter, or by using a known good light source.

I've tested Photone using my iPhone XSMax, I use an Apogee and a Unit-T light meter, and I recommend a Uni-T light meter. The primary reason for not using Photone is that it completely failed when I tested it against a blurple in 2021 (property set up and test) and it was highly inaccurate when I tested it against a Growcraft X3 when I tested is again in 2022. In the latter test, Photone was inaccurate but it was consistent so I could have just calibrated Photone and declared victory. The issue, for me, was that it was reading 11% high, IIRC, when the programmer was indicating that it should be reading "spot on".

One of the major challenges that the Photone programmers face is that they're dealing with so many different hardware platforms. As a programmer for over 30 years, I'm aware of those complexities.

There are fewer sensors for the iPhone and Apple has pretty good standards for quality. In contrast, the Android market is a lot more variable. As the programmer at Photone wrote to me on 4/27/22:

"In general, we’re still heavily working on the Android Beta’s accuracy as we’re supporting over 20’000 Android devices and know that factory calibrated accuracy can be a hit or miss."

In contrast, a general purpose light meter would than likely, I expect, have only one chip over the life of a give model. That means that the software problem is much easier to solve and, that means, that they will tend to me more accurate.

The other issue is cost - I don't want to put my $1,000 phone in a tent when I can put a $25 meter in a tent.

No doubt, as a programmer, I can come up with lots of reasons why it could be so helpful to have the smart of an iPhone but those arguments pertain to a very small number of growers who want to maintain historical records or, as I do, publish their light values in their grow journal (though I probably won't be writing any grow journals for future grows).

All in all, after 2 ½ years and six grows (chop time this weekend!) of using an Apogee, I very firmly believe that there's no reason for the vast majority of growers to do anything but use a light meter.

Below is a copy/paste from an Excel document I put together about using a light meter to set light values.

1683396761073.png


I think in terms of PPFD not lux but here's a table of rough values that I created for someone on another site. I'm a "high light" grower, as Bugbee refers to it — get your plants to the light saturation point (800-1000µmols) as quickly as possible and read your plants.

My approach is based on published research that demonstrates a direct, almost linear, relationship between light levels and crop and plant yield and quality. Bugbee says cannabis "loves light". That's one perspective. If you want to justify buying a new light, just think of it in terms of cannabis being not very efficient at converting photons to weed, therefore, a larger light is needed. :-)



1683396901699.png
 

Wastei

Well-Known Member
Learn to read the plant and dont go by numbers, go by the plant response. There's to many newcomers going by someone else's numbers instead of looking on what the plant is trying to tell you to do.

It takes time to learn and I get that. There's really no shortcuts other than keep on growing. But more is not better if the plant doesn't get enough time to acclimate to its new environment.

It's better to let the light hang high and letting the plant grow into the light. Keeping the canopy even by using techniques like "supercropping" or scrog nets. More is not better when growing Cannabis, the best is what the plant can tolerate and need for optimal growth at that point in time.

If I increase intensity by 100w without at the same time also raising the lights, the plants are going to have a hard time adjusting to the changes.
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
A $20 lux meter works just fine for measuring light output (blurples not included) for 99% of use cases
Migro has a video demonstrating the linear relationship between lux and his Apogee MQ500 meter.
Roughly lux * .017 = ppfd (for a UNI-T lux meter)
 

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
Learn to read the plant and dont go by numbers, go by the plant response. There's to many newcomers going by someone else's numbers instead of looking on what the plant is trying to tell you to do.

It takes time to learn and I get that. There's really no shortcuts other than keep on growing. But more is not better if the plant doesn't get enough time to acclimate to its new environment.

It's better to let the light hang high and letting the plant grow into the light. Keeping the canopy even by using techniques like "supercropping" or scrog nets. More is not better when growing Cannabis, the best is what the plant can tolerate and need for optimal growth at that point in time.

If I increase intensity by 100w without at the same time also raising the lights, the plants are going to have a hard time adjusting to the changes.
I think that's all I can do at this point. Buying a light meter to check my app is redundant. If I had a light meter, I'd use that. Lol.
 

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
You can calibrate it against a light meter, a PAR meter, or by using a known good light source.

I've tested Photone using my iPhone XSMax, I use an Apogee and a Unit-T light meter, and I recommend a Uni-T light meter. The primary reason for not using Photone is that it completely failed when I tested it against a blurple in 2021 (property set up and test) and it was highly inaccurate when I tested it against a Growcraft X3 when I tested is again in 2022. In the latter test, Photone was inaccurate but it was consistent so I could have just calibrated Photone and declared victory. The issue, for me, was that it was reading 11% high, IIRC, when the programmer was indicating that it should be reading "spot on".

One of the major challenges that the Photone programmers face is that they're dealing with so many different hardware platforms. As a programmer for over 30 years, I'm aware of those complexities.

There are fewer sensors for the iPhone and Apple has pretty good standards for quality. In contrast, the Android market is a lot more variable. As the programmer at Photone wrote to me on 4/27/22:

"In general, we’re still heavily working on the Android Beta’s accuracy as we’re supporting over 20’000 Android devices and know that factory calibrated accuracy can be a hit or miss."

In contrast, a general purpose light meter would than likely, I expect, have only one chip over the life of a give model. That means that the software problem is much easier to solve and, that means, that they will tend to me more accurate.

The other issue is cost - I don't want to put my $1,000 phone in a tent when I can put a $25 meter in a tent.

No doubt, as a programmer, I can come up with lots of reasons why it could be so helpful to have the smart of an iPhone but those arguments pertain to a very small number of growers who want to maintain historical records or, as I do, publish their light values in their grow journal (though I probably won't be writing any grow journals for future grows).

All in all, after 2 ½ years and six grows (chop time this weekend!) of using an Apogee, I very firmly believe that there's no reason for the vast majority of growers to do anything but use a light meter.

Below is a copy/paste from an Excel document I put together about using a light meter to set light values.

View attachment 5288418


I think in terms of PPFD not lux but here's a table of rough values that I created for someone on another site. I'm a "high light" grower, as Bugbee refers to it — get your plants to the light saturation point (800-1000µmols) as quickly as possible and read your plants.

My approach is based on published research that demonstrates a direct, almost linear, relationship between light levels and crop and plant yield and quality. Bugbee says cannabis "loves light". That's one perspective. If you want to justify buying a new light, just think of it in terms of cannabis being not very efficient at converting photons to weed, therefore, a larger light is needed. :-)



View attachment 5288419
This is a bit above my pay grade. I'm gonna have to really look into all this information. I appreciate the information. Thank you
 

Budzbuddha

Well-Known Member
The Photone app will work in a pinch - i just paid the $5 bucks for the full led spectrum option. Add a simple withe paper over lens to aid in light diffusion and look at the levels of Par and DLI.

You can also judge plants response by using a balanced approach of height and dimmer power.
I aim between 15-18” height over canopy and use dimmer control to judge the DLI.

Rather simple.
 

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
The Photone app will work in a pinch - i just paid the $5 bucks for the full led spectrum option. Add a simple withe paper over lens to aid in light diffusion and look at the levels of Par and DLI.

You can also judge plants response by using a balanced approach of height and dimmer power.
I aim between 15-18” height over canopy and use dimmer control to judge the DLI.

Rather simple.

I don't have the controller yet.

Would you mind taking a look at my grow log?

 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
This is a bit above my pay grade. I'm gonna have to really look into all this information. I appreciate the information. Thank you
You're welcome.

I found some info on this light that's useful. I wasn't able to find the info that I wanted on Gavita's site - they publish some data but do not provide the most important info. Fortunately, this page shows the PPFD map for that light.

Gavita publishes the PPF value of 1700. PPF indicates how many photons a light fixture emits that are in the PAR spectrum (light that plants can use). That's of some value but doesn't tell us how much light a canopy will get. That's a value referred to as PPFD which is how much light is falling on a given area in one second. That's key.

The page at the link has "third party" data and I've copied and pasted from that page here:

"We recommend hanging the Gavita Pro 1700e about 12 to 36 inches above your plants. At 36 inches above your plants the Gavita Pro 1700e will cover about a 6' x 6' area in veg. When in flower we recommend hanging it about 12 to 24 inches above your plants covering about a 5' x 5' area.
Below we also have our independent laboratory tested LED grow light distance PAR charts for the Gavita Pro 1700e at different heights.

1683410887852.png


The maximum PPFD is 720 in the center is 720µmols at 24" and that drops quickly as you move off center. Looking at that light pattern, I would drop the light to 14 to 18" and keep my plants clustered in the center of the tent.

The reason for lowering the hang height is that 720 µmols is about 10% below the low range for the light saturation point of cannabis (800-1000µmols). When you start to move off center, the light levels on the center line of the tent and near the wall are just above seedling level (308). Light values collapse in the corners. Cannabis will grow at light levels above 64µmols so the plants won't die at 236 but but by day 10, my plants are at 250µmols.

Some things to keep in mind…


[checks the grow journal]

85° and 30%RH. Your plants are doing surprisingly well under those conditions.

Cannabis will grow in that temperature (veg) if your RH is 70%±.

At 30%, your plants are sucking up large amounts of water simply because 30% RH is very low for growing most plants. Add in the high temp (85° is about as high was you want use and there's a good argument to not run at that temp) and the rate of transpiration skyrockets. As the plants give off water - to try to deal with the high temp + low RH combo - nutrients are left behind and you'll tend to get imbalances caused by excess P, K, Mn, and nitrate and or ammonium, since those chemicals are the ones that are taken up the most quickly.

If you're feeding them frequently (adding nutes or topping up with nutes if that's a hydro grow) you're, in essence, "force feeding" those chemicals into your plant.

The first step I would take is to get VPD in check. VPD is the combination of temp + RH. You can grow cannabis at a wide range of temps but you have to match that with RH or else you'll get problems. Like a nutrient issue. To get VPD in check, lower your temp and/or raise RH. And since you're using LED's, you might want to have an IR thermometer to get the temperature of the canopy. That's the "leaf surface temperature" ("LST"0 and it's needed to get VPD squared away.

At 85° for ambient temp, you'll want RH to be between 65 and 75%. Check out a VPD chart and look at the values for vegetative stage.
 

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
You're welcome.

I found some info on this light that's useful. I wasn't able to find the info that I wanted on Gavita's site - they publish some data but do not provide the most important info. Fortunately, this page shows the PPFD map for that light.

Gavita publishes the PPF value of 1700. PPF indicates how many photons a light fixture emits that are in the PAR spectrum (light that plants can use). That's of some value but doesn't tell us how much light a canopy will get. That's a value referred to as PPFD which is how much light is falling on a given area in one second. That's key.

The page at the link has "third party" data and I've copied and pasted from that page here:

"We recommend hanging the Gavita Pro 1700e about 12 to 36 inches above your plants. At 36 inches above your plants the Gavita Pro 1700e will cover about a 6' x 6' area in veg. When in flower we recommend hanging it about 12 to 24 inches above your plants covering about a 5' x 5' area.
Below we also have our independent laboratory tested LED grow light distance PAR charts for the Gavita Pro 1700e at different heights.

View attachment 5288476


The maximum PPFD is 720 in the center is 720µmols at 24" and that drops quickly as you move off center. Looking at that light pattern, I would drop the light to 14 to 18" and keep my plants clustered in the center of the tent.

The reason for lowering the hang height is that 720 µmols is about 10% below the low range for the light saturation point of cannabis (800-1000µmols). When you start to move off center, the light levels on the center line of the tent and near the wall are just above seedling level (308). Light values collapse in the corners. Cannabis will grow at light levels above 64µmols so the plants won't die at 236 but but by day 10, my plants are at 250µmols.

Some things to keep in mind…


[checks the grow journal]

85° and 30%RH. Your plants are doing surprisingly well under those conditions.

Cannabis will grow in that temperature (veg) if your RH is 70%±.

At 30%, your plants are sucking up large amounts of water simply because 30% RH is very low for growing most plants. Add in the high temp (85° is about as high was you want use and there's a good argument to not run at that temp) and the rate of transpiration skyrockets. As the plants give off water - to try to deal with the high temp + low RH combo - nutrients are left behind and you'll tend to get imbalances caused by excess P, K, Mn, and nitrate and or ammonium, since those chemicals are the ones that are taken up the most quickly.

If you're feeding them frequently (adding nutes or topping up with nutes if that's a hydro grow) you're, in essence, "force feeding" those chemicals into your plant.

The first step I would take is to get VPD in check. VPD is the combination of temp + RH. You can grow cannabis at a wide range of temps but you have to match that with RH or else you'll get problems. Like a nutrient issue. To get VPD in check, lower your temp and/or raise RH. And since you're using LED's, you might want to have an IR thermometer to get the temperature of the canopy. That's the "leaf surface temperature" ("LST"0 and it's needed to get VPD squared away.

At 85° for ambient temp, you'll want RH to be between 65 and 75%. Check out a VPD chart and look at the values for vegetative stage.
Thank you! That does make sense.

Unfortunately, because I don't have the controller for my light, it's running at 100%. This is making temp management an issue. I'll do my best to bring it to 80f. I have a humidifier I can put in. I'll give that a try

Thank you again. I've spent enough time around grows to fool myself into thinking I know shit. Running a tent on my own is proving otherwise. Lol
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Thank you! That does make sense.

Unfortunately, because I don't have the controller for my light, it's running at 100%. This is making temp management an issue. I'll do my best to bring it to 80f. I have a humidifier I can put in. I'll give that a try

Thank you again. I've spent enough time around grows to fool myself into thinking I know shit. Running a tent on my own is proving otherwise. Lol
You're welcome.

"Thank you again. I've spent enough time around grows to fool myself into thinking I know shit. Running a tent on my own is proving otherwise. Lol"
There really aren't that many pieces to this puzzle. Bite off a little bit at a time and things will fall into place.

The graphic below is from a video by Bruce Bugbee. As a new grower, your knowledge in some of those areas will be limited but work through each of those areas and things will turn out quite well.


Parameters of Growth.png
 

CadillacJack

Well-Known Member
You're welcome.

"Thank you again. I've spent enough time around grows to fool myself into thinking I know shit. Running a tent on my own is proving otherwise. Lol"
There really aren't that many pieces to this puzzle. Bite off a little bit at a time and things will fall into place.

The graphic below is from a video by Bruce Bugbee. As a new grower, your knowledge in some of those areas will be limited but work through each of those areas and things will turn out quite well.


View attachment 5288478

Looks like I have some lectures to (virtually) attend. Lol.
 
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