Can anyone tell me the issue here?

deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
Hope everyone’s good?

I have an issue with two of my girls showing some sort of deficiency.

They are 2 and a half weeks old from seed.

Currently on shogun nutes (amounts per L)

Coco
A -2ml
B - 2ml
Ketana - 0.2ml
Zenzym - 2.5ml
PPM IN - 640
PPM OUT (average) - 270
Humidity 60-70%

I haven’t got an EC pen but I check my PPM in and out as you can see above, the PPM is way lower than it is going in, is it just a case of upping the nutes? Although this looks like more of an issue.

New growth looks a quite a lot lighter, I just think I’m maybe under feeding these.

I transplanted yesterday to 4L pots, they were pretty rootbound around the bottom when I transplanted from the original 0.5L pots, could this of been the issue why they maybe are showing signs of deficiency?

Any help would be appreciated
Thanks!
 

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deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Do your nutes provide calcium and magnesium?
Click to expand...
Don’t think so, the A&B is just standard NPK… Ketana is for root stimulation and zenzym is to break down old roots.

It does say on the chart to start adding 1ml calmag from first week of veg which I’m in now. I’ll get some if that’s what you think it might be
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
deejay123 said:
Don’t think so, the A&B is just standard NPK… Ketana is for root stimulation and zenzym is to break down old roots.

It does say on the chart to start adding 1ml calmag from first week of veg which I’m in now. I’ll get some if that’s what you think it might be
Click to expand...
I’m fairly sure based on the pictures and this information.
 
Q

Qsound

Active Member
I'll throw my 2 cents in....I'm new to the forum, and am trying to get involved when the time permits, and this group as has been helpful to me in the last few weeks that I have joined...so thanks everyone for growing and sharing!

I think you should start with the fundamentals. PH, temp, RH, and light intensity...at least that's where I always start before anything else. If the environment and the PH is off, and you throw nutes at the problem right away... it becomes like chasing a ghost.

If PH is too far off....any adjustment to nutes can make it worse, which will result in a difficult diagnosis and ultimately a flush. What is the PH going in and test the runoff as well.... 5.8 would be a safe going in number....then compare to whats coming out. You could be getting a little lockout which will show itself as deficiency.

Your EC is about 1.2 (at 500 scale) and .9 (at 700 scale) going in which is on the edge for the stage they are at. I dont really see signs that the PPM/EC is too low. When I look at the pics, the plants are pretty good...It's possible that if you bump up the RH a bit assuming you are around 80* temp, dial in the light intensity (about 300-400pfd), and ensure the PH is good in and out...that that may correct the small amount of deficiency that you are seeing.

Room temp and RH... the temp at the plant level height along with the RH (VPD) will play a factor, regarding whether the plant will be taking in more water than nutes and vise versa. If you are at 80 degrees as an example....I would be trying to maintain around 75 RH....google VPD chart and save to your desktop. Your plants seem to be consuming the ppm your giving them, however...if your PH, temp, and RH are all in the wheelhouse....you could bump the ppm a bit to see if there is improvement. If the latter is not in the wheelhouse...Fix that stuff first, and then move to nute adjustment. Oh...new growth will always be a bit lighter!!
 
deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
Qsound said:
I'll throw my 2 cents in....I'm new to the forum, and am trying to get involved when the time permits, and this group as has been helpful to me in the last few weeks that I have joined...so thanks everyone for growing and sharing!

I think you should start with the fundamentals. PH, temp, RH, and light intensity...at least that's where I always start before anything else. If the environment and the PH is off, and you throw nutes at the problem right away... it becomes like chasing a ghost.

If PH is too far off....any adjustment to nutes can make it worse, which will result in a difficult diagnosis and ultimately a flush. What is the PH going in and test the runoff as well.... 5.8 would be a safe going in number....then compare to whats coming out. You could be getting a little lockout which will show itself as deficiency.

Your EC is about 1.2 (at 500 scale) and .9 (at 700 scale) going in which is on the edge for the stage they are at. I dont really see signs that the PPM/EC is too low. When I look at the pics, the plants are pretty good...It's possible that if you bump up the RH a bit assuming you are around 80* temp, dial in the light intensity (about 300-400pfd), and ensure the PH is good in and out...that that may correct the small amount of deficiency that you are seeing.

Room temp and RH... the temp at the plant level height along with the RH (VPD) will play a factor, regarding whether the plant will be taking in more water than nutes and vise versa. If you are at 80 degrees as an example....I would be trying to maintain around 75 RH....google VPD chart and save to your desktop. Your plants seem to be consuming the ppm your giving them, however...if your PH, temp, and RH are all in the wheelhouse....you could bump the ppm a bit to see if there is improvement. If the latter is not in the wheelhouse...Fix that stuff first, and then move to nute adjustment. Oh...new growth will always be a bit lighter!!
Click to expand...
Hey man!

Thanks for the in depth reply! So here’s what I got…

So the PH going in is 5.8 at the moment, I checked the run off before I transplanted yesterday and it was coming back at 6.4. I know this is a jump but I’ve read in countless articles that coco makes the ph rise on run off and if you start to compensate for what’s going in then you will run into problems which I kind of agree with so I’ve always just stuck to 5.8 going in.

As for the light, I’m running a Gavita ct2000e on 50% brightness (lowest) with the master controller with the light at 1m above canopy level.

Temps with lights on are 24/25° and lights off 20/21°

Humidity at the moment is currently between 62-72% with humidifier controlled with VPD option (which I don’t use)

I don’t use this option as it says on the sheet it came with that there should be a 2° plant offset but I’ve checked the canopy with my laser thermometer and it’s the same temp as the room so I wouldn’t know what VPD I should be setting at, so I just leave the humidity 24hrs at 66% but it drifts from the readings I mentioned above.

I’m using a bluelab PH pen at the moment but the shop said they are getting loads of them back at the moment, I have to calibrate it with every use, so I’m thinking of swapping it out!

As for final thought, my water ppm is super low (30-45ppm) I’m just thinking if this could be an issue as there will be hardly anything in the water like cal or mag?

Appreciate the long reply buddy!
 
deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
Right ok so I think I’ve dialled in the VPD to what it’s supposed to be for the temps I’m running (24-25°)

I’ve set the VPD at 0.49 and it’s the humidity has been brought up and sitting steady between 68-73% and set the night time humidity to 66%

I’ll come back later to see if there’s any improvement.
 
Q

Qsound

Active Member
OK COOL...so that's good you are bumping the RH, as that should slow down the uptake a bit. Next is that if you are going in at 5.8 and coming out at 6.4 ...you are likely around 7 at the root zone (an average). You will see spikes in EC after drybacks yes. However, we need to maintain the root zone a bit tighter between that 5.7- 6.3.

So if I were in your shoes...at next feed...run your 600 or so ppm at 5.5 and feed with more run off than you normally do. This should not only put your PH back in range, it will act as a flush and replace any out of balance remaining nutes in the root zone. Also by raising your VPD which was too low...you should see a change in your PPM runoff after a couple days.

The next thing that you may want to look at is your light fixture, and are you running 18on/6off (plants need a rest). I'm not familiar with that light, but being a Gavita...I will assume that its putting out about 1000 umoles at 100%. That in mind, it's possible that your lowest setting at 50% and 1 meter up might be a bit strong with your plants at few nodes or so (stronger the light the more uptake). Look at how the plants are behaving a few hours into lights on (are they praying wanting more or lying out flat trying to hide), and check them again as you get closer to lights off (do they look like they have had a enough for the day). Strains can behave different from one another regarding the amount of light they can take early on.

After you dial in the last couple things here, and they have settled in a day or so...I would be looking at nute adjustments...which will likely need a little bump after the PH, and RH settle in, as long as the light intensity is correct. When the light intensity, room environment, and PH are all in the wheelhouse...the only thing left is nute balance.

Your plants still look good and they will only get better!

Take my advice and experience with a grain of salt, as we all are learning every day. It's like a Doctors practice, trying to diagnose a sick patient that cannot speak......
 
deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
Qsound said:
OK COOL...so that's good you are bumping the RH, as that should slow down the uptake a bit. Next is that if you are going in at 5.8 and coming out at 6.4 ...you are likely around 7 at the root zone (an average). You will see spikes in EC after drybacks yes. However, we need to maintain the root zone a bit tighter between that 5.7- 6.3.

So if I were in your shoes...at next feed...run your 600 or so ppm at 5.5 and feed with more run off than you normally do. This should not only put your PH back in range, it will act as a flush and replace any out of balance remaining nutes in the root zone. Also by raising your VPD which was too low...you should see a change in your PPM runoff after a couple days.

The next thing that you may want to look at is your light fixture, and are you running 18on/6off (plants need a rest). I'm not familiar with that light, but being a Gavita...I will assume that its putting out about 1000 umoles at 100%. That in mind, it's possible that your lowest setting at 50% and 1 meter up might be a bit strong with your plants at few nodes or so (stronger the light the more uptake). Look at how the plants are behaving a few hours into lights on (are they praying wanting more or lying out flat trying to hide), and check them again as you get closer to lights off (do they look like they have had a enough for the day). Strains can behave different from one another regarding the amount of light they can take early on.

After you dial in the last couple things here, and they have settled in a day or so...I would be looking at nute adjustments...which will likely need a little bump after the PH, and RH settle in, as long as the light intensity is correct. When the light intensity, room environment, and PH are all in the wheelhouse...the only thing left is nute balance.

Your plants still look good and they will only get better!

Take my advice and experience with a grain of salt, as we all are learning every day. It's like a Doctors practice, trying to diagnose a sick patient that cannot speak......
Click to expand...
Thanks so much for the advice brother, I will have a look at this from next feed.

Yep the lights are on 18/6 I’ve just looked at the spec for this LED Gavita and it gives out 2000umol (2.6umol per w) it draws 780w and is a like for like fitting for a 1000w hps.

It does say on the website to keep to a minimum of a 90cm above canopy at all times but I’m going to raise it later to 1.5m see if this changes anything? The node spacing is really tight, you could be right in this sense as they maybe getting too much light?

It’s funny when you mentioned if they are praying for more light, they don’t really look like that a few hours in so I’m definitely going to raise the light from the 90cm it says on the website, I honestly now think they maybe getting too much light. Right before lights off they definitely look like they’ve had enough.

There’s nothing worse than putting your all into something and it not going right

Thanks again man
 
deejay123

deejay123

Well-Known Member
I’ve just raised it to 1.1m above canopy level, thought 1.5m was a bit too much.

will see how they react
 
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