Can anyone ID this problem please - is it mag deficiency?

GreenGro said:

Thanks

Nute mix is soft water, my water is soft water - ppm 90 - 140 ph around 7

what are the signs of calcium def. please?

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your ph should be at 5.8 (ideal). this is what your goal is, to keep the water close to 5.8.

for ca deff, you'll notice something similar to a nute burn on the edges of your leaves (not the tips specifically). it will progress to rust spots in the center of the leaves, and can be fixed easily enough with cal/mag (which every hydro grower should have, imo)

sorry for not getting back to you sooner, if your nutes are for hardwater, and your water is soft, you will deffinitely have a ca deff eventually.

kp

KP what would you use to add cal / mag can you buy pure cal or mg and add it stright to water or do you just buy nutes thats high on cal/mg

kindprincess said:

for ca deff, you'll notice something similar to a nute burn on the edges of your leaves (not the tips specifically). it will progress to rust spots in the center of the leaves, and can be fixed easily enough with cal/mag (which every hydro grower should have, imo)



kp

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Thank you for this again. I am seeing small faint rust spots now. My grow place doesn't stock cal/mag I can't seem to find it, what else could I use?

looks like nute burn

I think it's epsom salts sir.

SHOOT2KILL66 said:

KP what would you use to add cal / mag can you buy pure cal or mg and add it stright to water or do you just buy nutes thats high on cal/mg

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in soil, you have organic choices. for ca deff, you can use blackstrap molasses, on tablespoon per gallon, for mag deff, use epsom salts, one teaspoon per gallon.

for hydro, most 3 part formulas are made for certain kinds of water. if you have soft water, you'd get the regular formula, if your water is hard (tap water) then hw micro nutes are usually purchased.

cal/mag is a product available from botanicare. great stuff, i think it's one teaspoon per gallon? don't quote me on that... anyway, here's a link...

Cal Mag Plus - quart | Plant Nutrient Enhancers - General

hope this helps.

kp

GreenGro said:

Thank you for this again. I am seeing small faint rust spots now. My grow place doesn't stock cal/mag I can't seem to find it, what else could I use?

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i think i got your q up above, if not, pm me...

love, kp

GreenGro said:

Thank you for this again. I am seeing small faint rust spots now. My grow place doesn't stock cal/mag I can't seem to find it, what else could I use?

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GreenGro

The more I read through this thread and the more I think about it the more I think my initial post to you was correct - your ph is wrong and it's this that's causing your Magnesium lockout, along with your water. As kp says, your ph should ideally be around 5.8 and certainly no lower than that, if it were me I'd have it more 6.0-6.2 personally at least until the Mg problems go away and then you could drop it back to 5.8 - just watch for other possible lockouts occuring.

It's not calcium deficient, calcium def's are extremely rare in potted plants and I'd say Mg def's was probably either the second or third most common deficiency for indoor potted plants - usually because of the dissolved Calcium Carbonate salts in the irrigation water. Even at 200ppm excess Calcium Carbonate can start locking Mg out.

The only real long term solution to this (as I'm having to do) is get an RO machine to remove all that Calcium Carbonate from the water.

I think the reason you're seeing slow progress is twofold, as I've already said your ph is too low, secondly your dosages of epsom salts are also on the low side and it can take anything between 2-6 days for changes to start showing in the plant. I usually use 1 teaspoon per Litre of water for epsom salts (either level or heaped depending on how much I think they need) or 1 level-heaped tablesoon of epsom salts per gallon (4.5 litres).

In my opinion foliar feeding Epsom salts at a slightly less dilution rate than for root feeding is probably the fastest way to get results from it because the plant can access this directly through the leaves and ph is taken out of the equation.

Just don't overdo it and make sure you use a wetting agent with the foliar feed to help the water droplets penetrate the leaf surfaces. Also make sure you do it just after lights out so the light doesn't magnify the water droplets and burn the leaves.

babygro said:

GreenGro


Even at 200ppm excess Calcium Carbonate can start locking Mg out.

Thanks for this Baby - as I said ealier on this thread though my tap water is 140ppm max 90 min can calcium lock out mg at this level?





Just don't overdo it and make sure you use a wetting agent with the foliar feed to help the water droplets penetrate the leaf surfaces.

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What do you mean by a wetting agent?

Also you could well be right about the Ph causing it, in the beginning and everytime I dumped the tank I was going for a PH of about 5.2 - 5.3, following some advice I read somewhere else, this is obviously much lower than the range you and KP have been saying.

Thanks again

Green

GreenGro said:

What do you mean by a wetting agent?

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Firstly, I wouldn't have thought that an irrigation water ppm of under 200 would cause lockout, so it must be your low ph really that's causing it or it could be a combination of the two.

Wetting agents are basically Surfactants which lower the surface tension of liquids and allow easier spreading and penetration. Washing up liquid is a basic wetting agent - add one drop of washing up liquid to your foliar spray solution at about 1 drop per Litre or so.

GreenGro said:

Also you could well be right about the Ph causing it, in the beginning and everytime I dumped the tank I was going for a PH of about 5.2 - 5.3, following some advice I read somewhere else, this is obviously much lower than the range you and KP have been saying.

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Well the problem is, Magnesium availability does reduce significantly at lower ph levels, and combined with the Calcium ppm could be the cause. If you look at the chart I've attached, you can see that at a ph of 5.0 you get about a 1/3rd of the Magnesium availability that you get at 7.0. 7.0 is obviously too high for hydro but you can see from the chart that the best ph for maximum availability of all nutrients is 6.5-7.0 - this applies equally to hydro as it does to soil.

That's the same ph chart on the back of my ph up/down.

Green Gro, I would definitely still try and get some Cal/mag plus for the future it works great. I use the whole botanicare line and I like it.

Here is the whole line on sale
SH Hydroponics > Complete Hydro Organic Kit

And if you just want the cal/mag check out
http://www.htgsupply.com/nutrients.asp?categoryID=2&subcategoryID=108

KP is right it is definitely something that every hydro grower should have. Epsom salts work great too, but you can just add this to your nutrient schedule and not have to worry about it. Good luck, I had a similar problem and it eventually worked out....I'm crossing my fingers for you.

ive the same problem with 1 of my plants but i cant find that mg cal plus in the uk any were does any one know what its called here or were to get it epson salts is good but mg def usealy leads to cal def like you,s have said its good to have both ty

SHOOT2KILL66 said:

epson salts is good but mg def usealy leads to cal def like you,s have said its good to have both ty

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Rubbish, pure and simple.

Mg deficiency does NOT lead to Calcium deficiency.

This is the second time now you're spewed absolute rubbish into this thread. Did you not read what I wrote about Calcium deficiency, or do you think you're above all that?

dont get you knickers in a twist babygro all i want to know if i can get that mg cal plus over here not 1 of your pissy fits if one is locked out the others normaly locked out to and goes from bad to worse i dident say mg causes this
go an smoke a joint an stop your crying

SHOOT2KILL66 said:

dont get you knickers in a twist babygro all i want to know if i can get that mg cal plus over here not 1 of your pissy fits if one is locked out the others normaly locked out to and goes from bad to worse i dident say mg causes this
go an smoke a joint an stop your crying

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Then explain how Calcium gets locked out if you're constantly watering the plant with water that contains quantities of dissolved Calcium Carbonate which is pretty much present in all water that travels any distance over ground.

By telling people Calcium is getting locked out you're confusing people and making them think about how to add more Calcium, when an excess of Calcium is often the cause of Mg deficiency.

If your own problem is being caused by an excess of Calcium in the irrigation water and if you live in the UK that's highly likely - adding more Calcium is going to make the problem worse - not better. In the majority of Mg def cases you're looking at removing Calcium Carbonate from the rootzone - not adding to it.

This thread is about GreenGro's problem, not yours, you're just confusing the issue for anyone reading it.

right im confused myself now i think, so if my ph levels were wrong can this block my plants from mg but still let cal inn and i thought it was the ph levels in the soil and water caused mg def.

SHOOT2KILL66 said:

right im confused myself now i think, so if my ph levels were wrong can this block my plants from mg but still let cal inn and i thought it was the ph levels in the soil and water caused mg def.

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Considering the recent abusive pm you sent me I think it's perhaps best you figure it out for yourself, because in your words I only 'rabbit on about crap'.

What goes around comes around.

excellent work bg, good job!

i'd like to add just a few simplicities...

calcium gets locked out at a ph above 6.5 (i think, i can't find the friggin chart...) in hydro. the ph levels and effects are not the same with soil and hydro, ie, absorption of nutes in hydro is done best at 5.8 (ideal range for uptake in hydro). absorption in soil is best at 7.0.... so it's important to know this, as i've seen improper ph from ignorance.

an overkill of calcium can certainly cause mg deff, right on!

ok, now i'm guilty... i'm rushed, and i can't reread the thread, so i'm going to close with this....

if you're growing in soil, and your ph was just over 5, you probably have a calcium deff, as ca is blocked at low ph levels in dirt.

all in all, it is very important that you keep your ph in check. if the ph is right, and you have a problem, it's much easier to find out what is causing it and how to fix it. ph issues throw another factor into play....

hope this helps, sorry i don't have more time, and good job bg!

kp

puck them lips up sweetpea lol