But what about the roads? Common argument against Libertarian/Anarchy Debunked.

deprave

New Member
I'm confused. How are you grouping anarchists and libertarians as the same group? You realize they are drastically different right? Might as well say constitutionalists are anti government as well :rolleyes:
Well I am not really, they are on the same spectrum , not so distant, not "drastically different" always it depends...I see myself as a libertarian anarchist of sort because I am right on the border and share views from both....but the "roads" argument is used against both of them although its invalid for most libertarian philosophies which I stated that in the first paragraph of the OP...I wanted to battle this "Roads" thing head on for both anarchist and libertarians.
 

deprave

New Member
lets have anarchy, only the strong survive!

this coming from the most powerful man in the universe! of course thats ok for you, but i dont have the power to destroy the world itself, i would have to co-operate with all my cousins and shit to create a feudal dominion, and my cousins are mostly assholes! shit, just the goat rapes alone would decimate the ruminant populations, and the sheep wouldnt stand a chance!

anarchy indeed! think of the lambs for god's sake! those poor reamed out lambs!
That is funny that is the argument "liberals" use against your philosophy and now your using it against anarchy? Sorry your a neocon, your not a libertarian, not even a republican, these are neocon things your spouting.
 

deprave

New Member
deprave your not smart for this thread lol. i know you want to believe you hold some secret to a better society. but your proving to me that you spent to much time on the internet. your idea is flat out fucking retarded. i dont know what else to tell you.
Please just go away if you are going to be in denial and not receptive or want to discuss this, you said the thread was closed on your second post now stfu and go to another thread.
 

deprave

New Member
What the fuck are you talking about?
Just think out the consequences of this, if you make roads private people will take advantage of it.
If you know the State is corrupt, why do you continue to support it?
As I said, competition minimizes the risk of corruption.  Being corrupt is expensive, so corrupt firms will lose market share and go bankrupt. This crucial 'check and balance' is absent when you have a State, because the State just steals more whenever it runs out of money, which competing firms can't do. Competing firms have to satisfy consumers better then their competitors, or else they go bankrupt.



Refer to this video for an example of how law might work without government.


Law without Government: An Example of Conflict Resolution in a Free Society






[video=youtube;8kPyrq6SEL0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kPyrq6SEL0&feature=related[/video]

transcript

Where food production is monopolized by the government, it can be hard for the people to imagine how it could ever be any other way. They fear they may starve without government to plan and direct food production. They cannot imagine how a free market in food production could possibly work, let alone how much better off they would be with that system. They are too accustomed to having food provided for them by the government.

We are accustomed to a society where the arbitration and law industry – the courts system – is monopolised by the government. We fear chaos and disorder without government to plan and direct law. We find it hard to imagine how a free market in law could possibly work. In this video I will broadly describe how law and security could be provided by competing voluntary institutions.

This is Alice. Alice lives in a free society, where security and law are provided not by a government, but by competing firms. Like most people, Alice demands to feel secure in her person and property. She does not want anyone to aggress against her. Alice also demands that, if someone does commit aggression against her, she will be able to bring the aggressor to justice, and receive compensation.

A number of competing firms exist to satisfy these consumer demands. The firm Alice subscribes to, Dawn Defense, has a good reputation for preventing crime, and for obtaining justice when crimes do take place.

Alice pays her security bill monthly, the same way she pays for her electricity and telephone services. She is on a standard package, which suits her budget and her lifestyle choices. She has chosen an insurance option, so that if someone steals from her, she is guaranteed quick compensation.

One evening while walking home, Alice becomes a victim of aggression, when she is mugged at gunpoint. At the earliest opportunity, Alice calls the emergency service number and is put through to Dawn Defense emergency response center. They quickly dispatch agents to her location.

Unfortunately, by the time their agents arrive on the scene, the mugger is long gone. The agents examine the crime scene, and gather witness statements and any evidence that might help them identify and locate the mugger.

As specified in their contract, Dawn Defense pays Alice compensation for her losses: enough to cover the possessions taken from her, and a good deal more for her time, trouble and distress. Alice’s part in this story is now over. Dawn Defense, however, will want to bring the mugger to justice. They will want to recover their costs, and they have promised their customers that muggers will not get off lightly.

After doing some detective work, Dawn Defense identifies, with reasonable confidence, Bob as the aggressor. They locate him and issue him with a written demand: that he pays them $10,000 as a punishment for the crime he committed against Alice. Bob has two choices. He could admit his guilt and pay up so that Dawn Defense leaves him alone. Or he could refuse to pay.

Bob refuses to pay, claiming he is innocent. Dawn Defense will not want to have a reputation for harassing or using force against innocent people, so it will listen to his case.

After hearing his case, if they remain convinced of his guilt, they will insist on payment, threatening to use force against him if necessary. Bob now faces the same two choices. If he still refuses to pay, Dawn Defense will send armed men round to his house to enforce their punishment.

What if Bob has his own security? After receiving the first letter from Dawn Defense, Bob calls Tanna Justice, the security agency he subscribes to. He tells them he is completely innocent, and that he is being unjustly threatened with force by Dawn Defense. Tanna Justice calls Dawn Defense immediately to discuss the accusation of mugging. They insist on seeing some evidence. They conduct their own investigation.

After their investigation, they might agree with Dawn Defense that Bob is guilty. In this case, they order Bob to accept his punishment, and will not protect him from any force that Dawn Defense uses against him. Or they might reach the opposite conclusion: that Bob is innocent. In this case, they’ll stand by Bob, and consider the threats made by Dawn Defense to be aggressive. The two firms just cannot agree about what events took place.

So what happens now? Do they fight it out? Such a war would be costly for both sides and they would suffer reputational damage. Security firms that resort to war soon find themselves bankrupt, as consumers switch to their cheaper and more peaceful competitors. Dawn Defense and Tanna Justice have every incentive to find some peaceful way to resolve the conflict.

Since they cannot reach agreement about what happened, the two firms agree to pay for an independent arbitrator to look at the case, and agree to be bound by that arbitrator’s decision. Since both firms are large and well-established, they have a prior agreement about which firm to go in such cases.

Their chosen arbitrator – Benson Enterprises – is a firm that specializes in resolving such disagreements between security firms. Bensons examine the evidence presented by the two sides, and listen to their arguments. After careful consideration, they conclude that Bob is guilty of mugging Alice. As agreed, both sides accept the decision. Tanna Justice stand down from defending Bob.

Now with no-one to protect him, Bob has no other choice but to accept his punishment. Benson Enterprises is a highly respected firm, and no other security firm will agree to defend him now against the force threatened by Dawn Defense, unless new evidence emerges or the reputation of Bensons is brought into question.

If he is unable to pay the $10,000 punishment because he is poor, Dawn Defense will accept payment over a longer term. They may insist on taking a portion of his wages until his debt, plus interest, is paid, and may contract with his employer to guarantee they are paid. If Bob is unemployed, they may insist on taking a more active role in his life. They may force him to work at a place of their choosing.

If Bob is dangerous, or cannot be trusted to make the payments, they may restrict his movements to a certain region, or as a last resort, to a certain building – a secure workhouse where criminals are held while they pay off their debts to their victims and serve their punishment.

Bob’s crime against Alice will be noted by the various competing criminal records bureaus, and his identity will be made public in databases and in the media.

Security agencies now consider Bob a higher risk for committing further crimes, and may take steps to protect their customers from him. Bob may find it difficult to find a security firm that will accept him as a customer, and if he does he will have to pay higher premiums for it. Because of his record, other business owners may refuse to employ or trade with him, and landowners may not permit him to enter their land.

The performance of the security agencies is noted by various competing watchdog organizations that provide consumers with information about the quality of security and arbitration firms. The details of the case will be made available to auditors who check that the practices of the security and law firms adhere to quality standards.

We cannot know in advance how the security and arbitration firms will be structured. We cannot know how many firms will operate in a given area, or how large an area the typical firm will cover. For simplicity in this video, the two security firms Dawn Defense and Tanna Justice performed a number of distinct functions themselves. Free market competition is needed in order to know whether all these functions will be provided ‘in-house’, or whether some would be ‘outsourced’ or provided by distinct firms.

All these related industries keep the firms satisfying consumer demands for security and law true to their function of protecting individuals against aggression, serving justice, and maintaining order in society.

In my next video, I will consider disagreements between security firms about what punishments are to be used, and disagreements about what constitutes a crime. I will go on to consider what laws and punishments we can expect to be produced by competing free market law firms.
 

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
I've never heard of corrupt security personnel... What happens if Dawn Defense shows up and rapes Alice instead of helping her? Likely post rape scenario:

Company realizes it's personnel made a grave mistake that will lower marketability -> They deny it and call Alice a liar. -> Alice hires a new security firm -> New firm calls old firm -> Old firm says Alice is a liar -> New firm doesn't want to protect women that make false claims -> Alice has no security, got raped and mugged, lost money, and has no one to complain to.

Fuck, gotta love hypotheticals.

How is "libertarian anarchism" not an oxymoron?

If Bill was smart he would run into the woods where he keeps his arsenal. The security firm would realize that it's not cost effective to go get him.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm more concerned with a single security firm taking over, like Standard Oil or Microsoft did. De facto central government, without a constitution or other power-limiting convention. A few millennia of history teach us that monopolism is a minimum path on the social energy surface ... some active defense needs to be in place against it. My complaint with libertarianism as i understand it is that that part receives a handwaving dismissal. cn
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
I would charge a tax on my road. And I would lay spikes so that people may increase the chance they damage their vehicles on my road and then sell them new tires. It is a great business opportunity. Just like when Walmart started putting Subways inside the stores. Imagine a tire shop with a spike strip in front. It would be legal as I am sure I could get the other road owners to charge their tolls and we could monopolize travel across our area.
If I thought you were serious, I would reply.
 

deprave

New Member
I've never heard of corrupt security personnel... What happens if Dawn Defense shows up and rapes Alice instead of helping her? Likely post rape scenario:

Company realizes it's personnel made a grave mistake that will lower marketability -> They deny it and call Alice a liar. -> Alice hires a new security firm -> New firm calls old firm -> Old firm says Alice is a liar -> New firm doesn't want to protect women that make false claims -> Alice has no security, got raped and mugged, lost money, and has no one to complain to.

Fuck, gotta love hypotheticals.

How is "libertarian anarchism" not an oxymoron?
So how do all these corrupt security firms make any money if they are doing shit like this? The same thing happens with our system now only there is no accountability.

As I said, competition minimizes the risk of corruption.  Being corrupt is expensive, so corrupt firms will lose market share and go bankrupt. This crucial 'check and balance' is absent when you have a State, because the State just steals more whenever it runs out of money, which competing firms can't do. Competing firms have to satisfy consumers better then their competitors, or else they go bankrupt.



Likewise, independent arbitration firms are held to this same standard.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
ROAD TRIP HERB CHICKEN

Ingredients



  • 4 skinless, boneless chicken breasts
  • 2 eggs, beaten
  • 1 tablespoon water
  • 1 teaspoon chopped fresh parsley
  • 1/2 teaspoon dried thyme
  • 1 pinch crushed red pepper flakes
  • 1/2 cup dried bread crumbs, seasoned
  • 1/2 cup wheat germ
  • 1 teaspoon dried basil
  • 1 teasopoon black pepper ( ground)
  • 1 tablespoon vegetable oil


Directions


  1. Preheat oven to 425 degrees F (220 degrees C). Spray a baking sheet with non-stick cooking spray.
  2. Trim any fat from chicken and cut into 1 inch cubes.
  3. In a bowl beat the eggs with the water and add the chicken.
  4. Combine the parsley, thyme, red pepper, bread crumbs, wheat germ, basil and ground pepper. Stir in the oil with a fork and mix well to distribute evenly. Pour seasoning mixture into a resealable plastic bag and the chicken pieces to coat.
  5. Place coated chicken pieces on the prepared baking sheet and bake at 425 degrees F (220 degrees C) for 10 minutes, turn the pieces and cook for an additional 5 minutes.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Agreed. It is much simpler to have one central authority.
Simpler for who, exactly? Is simpler equate to better?

Though, I have to ask, how we decide who owns what in this Libertarian utopia? If I say it is my land, is it my land? Who is going to stop me?
Libertarians don't think in terms of utopia, that's the socialist's wet dream. Libertarians are the most pragmatic and realistic people I've ever met.
 

deprave

New Member
I'm more concerned with a single security firm taking over, like Standard Oil or Microsoft did. De facto central government, without a constitution or other power-limiting convention. A few millennia of history teach us that monopolism is a minimum path on the social energy surface ... some active defense needs to be in place against it. My complaint with libertarianism as i understand it is that that part receives a handwaving dismissal. cn
well I would refer you to the many free market theories on monopolies, the main one being that in a free market to have a monopoly would mean you are offering the highest quality service at the lowest price, so how is that a bad thing? If you ceased doing this after "ceasing control" then others would soon take your place. It is not a "handwaving" dismissal infact it is addressed in every philosophy on many levels, I have only given the prime example here. The market would set the proper value of goods where a centralized power only skews the true value.

Absent of this we have a government doing and supporting this exact thing, with NO ACCOUNTABILITY..
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
well I would refer you to the many free market theories on monopolies, the main one being that in a free market to have a monopoly would mean you are offering the highest quality service at the lowest price, so how is that a bad thing? If you ceased doing this after "ceasing control" then others would soon take your place. It is not a "handwaving" dismissal infact it is addressed in every philosophy on many levels, I have only given the prime example here.
The trouble with that is that market theories have as little to do with real markets as hard spheres in P-chem problems do with actual physics. How to prevent, inter alia, the company town phenomenon?

Your model does not seem to account for the very probable fact that a successful monopoly will use a good portion of its resources to protect itself, deviating from a quality/demand optimum to an arbitrary degree. Look at health insurance products in the States. They are amazingly inefficient from a consumer perspective, but shareholders in the companies are not complaining. I'm not shouting "conspiracy!" from a milkcrate, but I'm not pretending it's entirely absent either. I see no safeguards against monopolism, cartelization, predation. cn
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
lets have anarchy, only the strong survive!

this coming from the most powerful man in the universe! of course thats ok for you, but i dont have the power to destroy the world itself, i would have to co-operate with all my cousins and shit to create a feudal dominion, and my cousins are mostly assholes! shit, just the goat rapes alone would decimate the ruminant populations, and the sheep wouldnt stand a chance!

anarchy indeed! think of the lambs for god's sake! those poor reamed out lambs!
rotflmfao... out-fucking-rageous.
I was not always the most powerful man in the universe, I too, grew up in the country. Sorry to hear about the cousins but if they're busy with the goats, at least you can relax a little.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
so your defining order as: succession of political leadership, dependability of infrastructure, judicial applications, persistance of laws, predictability of social structure.

I want to ask how you define it as this but lets roll with it....

sucession of political leadership: Huh? What does that do for us? Why do we need that and especially without a state or a minimalist state? This in itself is a falesy because it decays rapidly in any society regardless. I don't think you have a point here really with this vague term so moving on.

dependability of infrastructure: Why can't a private company provide dependability of infastructure, more importantly, why wouldn't they do it better and cheaper in a free market? Government does a horrible job at this.

judicial applications: Yes they do.

persistence of laws: Continuing on with the vagueness of this, Persistance of laws what? Why would this be in a stateless society or valuable? What do you even mean?

predictability of social structure: Again what? More vague shit.. for example?

"Devoid of that we have nothing but unworkable anarchy/"

what? why? how?


This is the most vague response to anything I have seen that contains over 2 sentences in a very long time. You should win an award for vague response of the year. Finally I have to say based on this response that you have obviously not researched even a single libertarian or anarchist philosophy and have absolutely no idea what your talking about. I think its also fair to say that your probably didn't read the OP of this thread.
I composed it and typed it in about half a minute as I am on my sister's computer but wanted to see what was being said. When I get the chance I will elaborate - I kinda do "have an idea of what I am talking about"
 

deprave

New Member
The trouble with that is that market theories have as little to do with real markets as hard spheres in P-chem problems do with actual physics. How to prevent, inter alia, the company town phenomenon?

Your model does not seem to account for the very probable fact that a successful monopoly will use a good portion of its resources to protect itself, deviating from a quality/demand optimum to an arbitrary degree. Look at health insurance products in the States. They are amazingly inefficient from a consumer perspective, but shareholders in the companies are not complaining. I'm not shouting "conspiracy!" from a milkcrate, but I'm not pretending it's entirely absent either. I see no safeguards against monopolism, cartelization, predation. cn
I think spoon puts this in better words than I have time to but to sort of hash over what Ive written in more detail please review this theory which addresses such ideas and does so using multiple theories from several philosophies:

As long as most people within this society wanted to maintain its existence, they would enact measures to ensure against this very possibility. Perhaps society would, under threat of blacklisting, induce any would-be defense agencies into contractually agreeing to open itself up to random audits, inspections, and interviews. Perhaps they would also have to agree to have all of their funds, including those funds that go toward buying weapons, ammunition, and paying the salaries of their soldiers, to be held in bank accounts that could be instantly frozen the very second that society even suspects them of intending to monopolize power.

Perhaps they would also have to have a large sum of money in an escrow account that would be used to place bounties on their own heads if they decided to become aggressive against anyone in any way. As well as getting them to contractually agree to team up with all of the other defense agencies to take out any individual defense agency that has gone rogue. Society might also decide to place a limit on the market share that any individual defense agency can have to the point of any effective cartelization being practically impossible. Surely, the possibility for a defense agency to become a monopoly is still there, but it is far less likely than the possibility for an already existent state to become totalitarian. With an already existent state, you are one martial law order away from the state being allowed to have complete control over you. But a defense agency still has all of these barriers that it has to jump over just to become a state in the first place, let alone a totalitarian one. But let’s just assume that it is inevitable that this voluntary stateless society would, under all circumstances, eventually form into a state. Even then, that is not a reason to simply give up and let the state have its way with us. It does not logically follow that we should all kill ourselves, just because eventually we’re all going to die anyway.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Hey Mr. Neutron

So you live in Mexico

Did you need a visa?

If so how long was the wait?

How hard is it to become a citizen there?

Do they let you live there while you are applying?

Do they have national healthcare?

What about birthright citizenship?
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
I'm confused. How are you grouping anarchists and libertarians as the same group? You realize they are drastically different right? Might as well say constitutionalists are anti government as well :rolleyes:
Not all Libertarians are anarchists and not all anarchists are Libertarians, just as not all constitutionalists are anti government and not all those who are anti government are constitutionalists.
I don't see the confusion in either case. Wouldn't the ultimate Libertarian be an anarchist?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Deprave, I have two problems with that. The first big one is that I see mention being made of "society" as if it has a coherent, cohesive will. Imo that is invoking deum ex machina in order to counter a leaderless society's inherent tendency to capsize.

I also see "most people in a society willing to maintain its existence" as being without authority. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the barrel, and it can take a breathtaking minority of ruthless, ambitious sorts ... classic entrepreneurs andor mafiosi - to restructure that society into a hierarchy of minions.
There will always need to be an overseeing agency with teeth, and that leads gravitationally to formation of a state. A leaderless society larger than a village (max 200 membrs) is a prey animal with incipient paralysis. cn
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Hey Mr. Neutron

So you live in Mexico

Did you need a visa?

If so how long was the wait?

How hard is it to become a citizen there?

Do they let you live there while you are applying?

Do they have national healthcare?

What about birthright citizenship?
yes
yes
yes
a month or two
not very
yes
yes
what about it?
 
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