Bubbler in drip system reservoir
- Thread starter limeg
- Start date
420hydro
Well-Known Member
It does not hurt to have a bubbler in any reservoir no matter the system. If for nothing else, it will keep your nutrients stirred up.
Even though my waterfarm only holds 2 gallons, I keep a small air stone going in it. It probably doesn't do much good, but I rather have than not.
fatman7574
New Member
I am herein addressing only chemical nutrient reservoirs and te reservoirs used with inert media not organic nutrient reservoirs and soil grows etc.
As rock wool is known for being able to be over saturated with water increased dissolved oxygen in the reservoir would likely be an advantage. In any inert, well draining media growing such as hydroton, gravel and aeroponics increased dissolved oxygen in the reservoir is a debit not an advantage as it increases bacteria multiplication in the reservoir. This means biomass creation. Biomass is organic and clogs misters etc and I do not advocate orgainics in a chemical nutrient resrvoir. It is simply easier to continually filter out all organics possible from the reservoir and keep the DO level low as to decreases biological growth. This filtration can be done simply by running the aero tubes or hydro drainage through fine micron bags as i the drainage flows into the reservoir.
The reason inert well draining hydro and aero work so well is that the process of nutrient delivery and the plentiful oxygen present in surrounding air insures more than ample O2 to the plants roots regardless of the nutrient DO levels. The nutrient water could be totally void of disssolved oxygen and an open, well drained, inert hydro or an aero systems plant's roots would still have more than adequate O2. lots of growers talk about high temps and yes high temps also increases bacterial growth. However they main reason for root rot is aero tubes is the use of tubes that are too small and that re not tilted enough to drian well and that use conc statntly sprayed water. Root clogged tubes means roots sitting in warm low DO water regardless of the reservoir's DO level.
Water chooses the path of least resistance. Once many roots accumalate in aero tubes the vast majority of the water in a constantly spraying system runs on top of the roots not through them. Low pressure Aero sytems that spray in cycles of say 5 seconds on 55 seconds off have better drained and oyxgenated roots and less root rot. This has nothing to do with the level of DO in the reservoir however. It is merely a result of draining the low DO water out of the roots better so the roots can then be watered with high DO water provided by the misters and buy the O2 in the surrounding water. While dissolved oxygen can move through the tubes bottom lying roots by diffusion it happens very slowly even with moving water and is usually consider happening in negligible amounts.
Ideally the roots should never be in standing water in an aero or hydro system. It just defeats the benefits of hydro or aero.
As rock wool is known for being able to be over saturated with water increased dissolved oxygen in the reservoir would likely be an advantage. In any inert, well draining media growing such as hydroton, gravel and aeroponics increased dissolved oxygen in the reservoir is a debit not an advantage as it increases bacteria multiplication in the reservoir. This means biomass creation. Biomass is organic and clogs misters etc and I do not advocate orgainics in a chemical nutrient resrvoir. It is simply easier to continually filter out all organics possible from the reservoir and keep the DO level low as to decreases biological growth. This filtration can be done simply by running the aero tubes or hydro drainage through fine micron bags as i the drainage flows into the reservoir.
The reason inert well draining hydro and aero work so well is that the process of nutrient delivery and the plentiful oxygen present in surrounding air insures more than ample O2 to the plants roots regardless of the nutrient DO levels. The nutrient water could be totally void of disssolved oxygen and an open, well drained, inert hydro or an aero systems plant's roots would still have more than adequate O2. lots of growers talk about high temps and yes high temps also increases bacterial growth. However they main reason for root rot is aero tubes is the use of tubes that are too small and that re not tilted enough to drian well and that use conc statntly sprayed water. Root clogged tubes means roots sitting in warm low DO water regardless of the reservoir's DO level.
Water chooses the path of least resistance. Once many roots accumalate in aero tubes the vast majority of the water in a constantly spraying system runs on top of the roots not through them. Low pressure Aero sytems that spray in cycles of say 5 seconds on 55 seconds off have better drained and oyxgenated roots and less root rot. This has nothing to do with the level of DO in the reservoir however. It is merely a result of draining the low DO water out of the roots better so the roots can then be watered with high DO water provided by the misters and buy the O2 in the surrounding water. While dissolved oxygen can move through the tubes bottom lying roots by diffusion it happens very slowly even with moving water and is usually consider happening in negligible amounts.
Ideally the roots should never be in standing water in an aero or hydro system. It just defeats the benefits of hydro or aero.
I also noticed that my fresh water reservoir (filtered pH adjusted water) rose in pH over a number of days. Could the air bubbler be causing this also. I did notice organic matter forming in the clear water that contained nothing except some pH down. I can only assume this is from the increase in dissolved oxygen/CO2 in the water.
fatman7574
New Member
What do you mean by filtered pH adjusted water? RO water that came from water that was hard water comes from the RO filter high in CO2 which forms carbonic acids but that would have produced RO water at a low pH that would have risen to 7.0 over a few days. As you needed pH down then that is not the case. High pH is usually associated with hard water. Increased DO in and of its self would not cause a pH change in plain water unless it lowered the dissolved CO2 in the water. That could cause a slight rise in pH. If the water was/is high in calcium and carbonates any change in the amount of CO2 dissolved in thw e water can effect the waters pH. Typically increasing DO decreases disoolved CO2. This would raise the pH especailly if you water contains carbonates.
The water around here is somewhat hard, not too bad, but I do get calcium carbonate deposits in my tea kettle etc. My fresh water is tap water filtered through a high grade carbon water filter, that gets out 99.something percent of all nasties, including heavy metals. But not the sodium fluoride that they started adding to the water supply recently. That water is then adjusted with some pH down to keep it around the pH 6.0 level until it's ready to use. This is the water that I top up the nute reservoir with.
The main reason that I installed the bubbler was that despite stiring up every day or so, the fresh water tank would start to get a stagnant smell to it before i could use it all. But now I notice the organic matter forming in the water. I think I'm going to lose the bubbler.
On a side note, am I wasteing my time with filtering the water? It's a time consuming process, and would sooner just use tap water that has been sitting for a day or two to allow the chlorine to evaporate. If it's going to give the same results, this would save me a lot of time, and I would not have to have filtered water sitting around for days.
The main reason that I installed the bubbler was that despite stiring up every day or so, the fresh water tank would start to get a stagnant smell to it before i could use it all. But now I notice the organic matter forming in the water. I think I'm going to lose the bubbler.
On a side note, am I wasteing my time with filtering the water? It's a time consuming process, and would sooner just use tap water that has been sitting for a day or two to allow the chlorine to evaporate. If it's going to give the same results, this would save me a lot of time, and I would not have to have filtered water sitting around for days.
fatman7574
New Member
If you have white in your pots then you have soluble calcium, often called temporary water hardness. Its called temporary as heating the water makes the calcium precipitate, but it does not cause the other carbonates to precipitate (so they are the permanent hardness carbonates). The easiest way to handle solubale calcium is to run your tap water untill the water is hot then while the water is hot run it through a particulate filter or several coffee filters. It must be done while the water is hot as the calcium will go back into solution after cooling. As for removing most nasties from the tap water. There are really not many nasties in tap water that will effect the palnts or be taken up by the palnts that the carbon filter will remove. The main benefit of a carbon filter is to remove chlorine and to some what improve taste. The nasties it mainly removes are chemical compounds that you should not drink. However those compounds are either not taken up by the plants or are dissasembled by the plants and by chlorine dissipation they are broken down into harless organic compunds. They are mainly trace amounts of organic compounds that have been chlorinated. Ie mainly nitrogen compounds. They are mainly a problem if the water comes from a surafce water source such as a river, lake, reservioir. or a shallow well in farming areas. In your situation I would replace the carbon cartridge with a good 1 micron sediment cartridge and run hot tap water directly through the sediment filter in a standard cartridge housing. Just let it sit afterwards to cool and to dissipate the chlorine.
Thanks for the advice Fatman. Sounds like you know you chemistry. I'm going to ditch the bubbler, seems to be unecessary and increasing potential from problems. I'm going to quit filtering the water too.
If I fill a 10 gal container, like a rubbermaid tub, with tap water how long do I need to leave it before all the chlorine has evaporated off? The surface area of the water is around 1.5-2 sq ft at a guess.
If I fill a 10 gal container, like a rubbermaid tub, with tap water how long do I need to leave it before all the chlorine has evaporated off? The surface area of the water is around 1.5-2 sq ft at a guess.
fatman7574
New Member
If you have a small bubbler in it or a small circulating pump the over night is fine. Most people just fill a rubbermaid 32 gallon trash can and top it off after each use. Just put a small $10 aquarium power head/pump in it.
Id watch out for this mans statements
He speaks many big words, but never provides actually pictures of his grow nor provides any links for any of his information
Its all heresay and his experience
Here are some LINKS with other growers OPINIONS
The Importance of Reservoir Water Temperature
Water temperature is an often overlooked yet extremely important aspect of hydroponic gardening especially in water culture or aeroponic farmers. As summer rapidly approaches I think it is important to discuss this issue.
Water temperature plays an important role with the oxygen content and with bacteria growth in a typical hydroponic reservoir. When water temps rise the oxygen levels drop and bacteria growth increases. Generally speaking water temperature should be in the 68° to 72° F. range.
http://www.simplyhydro.com/previous.htm#The Importance of Reservoir Water Temperature
Why do I need cool root temperatures?
High root zone temperatures often plague indoor growers running water culture (aero/bubbler/dwc/hydro) systems. These systems are subject to rapid heating by intense HID lighting, which increases root zone temperatures, which decreases dissolved oxygen (DO) levels. Rapid plant growth, combined with low DO levels, can cause oxygen deprivation which in turn can result in infection by opportunistic pathogens such as pythium.
The key to maximum growth is to keep the air temperature at 75-80F, but the root zone at 68F or less. Note: the reservoir should be kept slightly cooler than the rootzone - irrigation and system heating will warm the water by the time it reaches the roots.
Optimum root growth occurs at 70-75F; however, destructive root diseases also grow and reproduce rapidly at these root temperatures. Maintaining nutrient temperatures at or under 68F maximizes root growth and DO, and inhibits pythium.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/8621-how-keep-your-reservoir-cool.html
If you keep nutrient properly oxygenated, 65F to 75F nutrient temp is fine. The oxygen content of a fully aerated solution at 10C (50 F) is about 13ppm, but as the solution warms up to 20 C (68 F) the ability of the liquid to 'hold' oxygen drops to 9 - 10ppm, by the time the solution has reached 30 C (86 F), then it's only 7ppm.
Plant roots want oxygen.............
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hydro/msg0111354428224.html
Keeping your hydropnics nutrient solution cool is easy. Hydroponics systems are a great way to grow a healthy
, high yield garden. In warmer climates, however, it's important to keep an eye on the temperatures of your nutrient solution. If the temperature gets too high, it can breed algae growth and prevent the solution from holding in dissolved oxygen. Many people struggle to keep the temperatures within the optimal range so their plants end up suffering. The hyroponics gardener who struggle to keep nutrient solutions temperatures cool ends up seeing fewer yields. They end up spending a lot of time fighting algae and root rot due to low dissolved oxygen levels because of high nutrient solution temperatures. The following are easy steps you can take to bring those nutrient solution temperatures down.http://www.ehow.com/how_5041485_easily-nutrient-solution-temperatures-cool.html
These are the facts; warm water holds less oxygen than cold water, Howe ever, very cold water can be detrimental to the plants, effectively shocking the root system until the water warms up enough for the plants to get over this shock. One the other hand, very warm water has a detrimental effect on a plant, again shocking the plants roots until it cools to a level that enables the roots to recover from the shock. So, the colder and fresher the water, the more oxygen content; the warmer, the less.
Approximately .0014% of DO can be found in very cold, fresh water. Appx .0008% of DO can be found in fresh water at room temp and water at room temp is exactly how the plants like it. Appx .0005% of DO can be found in fresh water at 86F. So as illustrated below, heating your water too much can be very detrimental to your plants potential.
Oxygen obtained via the roots directly from the nutrient solution only makes up 1% of the plants needs. So the oxygen supplied via the nutrient solution is only a minor source supplied to the roots. Aerating the nutrient solution will help, however this mainly serves to kill off any pathogens, basically keeping the nutrient fresher for longer. So you can see that allowing the plants some dry time will serve to get more air to the roots. Even in aeroponics, which delivers a highly oxygenates solution directly to the root ball, its essential to give the plants some dry time. Another technique is to add H2O2 to the reservoir, which again due to its extra oxygen atom, increases the DO in the reservoir. However, when H202 is diluted, it becomes unstable and soon breaks down and dissolves completely into the reservoir, so it normally will only oxygenate the reservoir for a few hours. Also, when H2O2 is regularly administered to the reservoir, it keeps the nutrient solution fresher for longer. However, overdoing H2O2 can be very detrimental to the food chains in your reservoir and detrimental to the plants roots. In high doses, it attacks many usable food chains that the plants will be deprived of.
High-oxygenated root systems benefit from another very important fact. Oxygen manipulates and affects the electrical charges found in water and for that fact, nutrients. This change in electrical charges allows roots to uptake water and nutrients with a lot less energy compared to non-oxygenated root systems, so clearly roots benefit from as much oxygen as you can provide them.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4QftE_Y3B2YC&pg=PT65&lpg=PT65&dq=hydroponic+reservoir+temperature&source=bl&ots=dMHB3hZki2&sig=6601B6ft25bbb5TZJbOqtaOJCCA&hl=en&ei=ylkXS9mFD4auMLvtoPYC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Im gonna tell you right now bra, high levels of oxygen are good for you system, whether its areopoincs, hydroponics, any fucking ponics
Oxygen in the root system is good for living plants, period
Dont listen to this water analysist guy telling you to let your res temps rise and DO levels to drop.......he is flat out WRONG
Last time I checked and civil engineering degree and water BS degree has nothing to do with growing plants
Do YOUR OWN research next time bra, all this shit can be found on the web
Dont listen to some old man who sits on these boards cuz hes got no life telling you to add H2O2 and chlorine to your res, once again he is VERY WRONG and has nothing but his own "degrees" which have nothing to do with growing to back him up
fatman7574
New Member
First of like I said I wass adressing convenational hydro in inert media and aero not all the other aqua culture systems that wacked out growers have come to call hydro.
You are a dumb ass as are a lot of the people you have quoted. There are aneraobic bacteria and aerobic bacteria. Aerobic bacteria grow and multiply only in water with oxygen. The bacteria are dependant on oxygen they will grow even at very low tempeartures as long as they ahve food and dissolved O2. Freezing does not even kill them. If you increase the temperature but not the oxygen the bacteria do not increase they actually decline due to a lack of oxygen. The more you raise the temp the higher the oxygen demand. So if you have higher temps don't give them more oxygen. DUH!!
If you take away the oxygen completely the water is now good growing media for anerobic bacteria. They grow where there is no oxygen. They like higher temperture even than the aerobic bacteria. Thats why in all those nooks and crannies where there is filth such as rotting roots and such bacteria grows. if its warm. In the nooks and carnnies there is liitle oxygenated water flowing that can dissud se oxygen through the filths so anerrobic bacteria grow there. However a typical reservoir or a well draining system like traditional hydro or a good aero system never reaches a condition where there is no oxygen in the root zone or the reservoirs. Therefore a moderate rise in temperature 80's and lowering the DO does not increase bacterial but lowers it, until you reach a point where there is no oxygen. This applies to the bottom of poorly draining low pressure aero tubes where the spray is constant, water logged rock wool, and water logged soil grows. With moderately heated water ie. 70's and low 80's increasing the dissolved oxygen increases bacteria. Reservoirs at low temperatures 60 to 75 degrees have a lower growth of bacteria with low DO, however with systems like DWC and bubbleponics low DO means poor growth. With soil grows with poor drainage iusing low DO nutrienr t water is also bad for growth. Increase the DO of a reservoirs water that is in the 60 to 70 degrre range and you will incraes bacterial growth in the resrvoir. PERIOD. Raise the tempearture 10 degrees or even 15 without also supplying more DO and the bacteria will not significantly increase as the bacteria are oxygen dependant. With aero the root rot is not caused by low reservoir DO but because of stagnant way ter in the bottom of the tubes that are full of roots. Water sprayed continously doses nor t dissuse down into the root mass layinf g in the bottom of the tubes but maily gflows on top of the roots. So the water that is surrounging the roots in the bottom of the tubes is anoxic (absent of oxygen or nearly so). The way to deal with thai iis not to incraese you resrvoir DO but instead use intermittant spray so that the stagnant water drains awsy and then fresh sprayed oxygenated water replaces it. Spraying the nutrient water assures more oxygen than a bubler in the reservoir and it does not cause a high bacteraial growth as is caused by high reservoir DO. Spraying means just high DO where its needed, at the plants roots not in the resrvoir where it increases bacterial growth.
Just look at it like this. If you incraese the temperati ure an, lighting and nutrients to your plants without supplying more CO2 you quickly reach the point where you have inadequate CO@ and your plants growth slows down to even laess that what it was before you incraesed the nutrients lighting and temp. With bacteria it si the same way. They have a unlimited food as there are in anutrient d broth, but o if you increase the tempbut not thye O2 they put on a bit of growth unto il the deplete any excess O2 beyond their normal needs at the old temp then they drop back to slower growth than before the tempearture was raised because they are O2 starved. Its called evolution chump.
You are a dumb ass as are a lot of the people you have quoted. There are aneraobic bacteria and aerobic bacteria. Aerobic bacteria grow and multiply only in water with oxygen. The bacteria are dependant on oxygen they will grow even at very low tempeartures as long as they ahve food and dissolved O2. Freezing does not even kill them. If you increase the temperature but not the oxygen the bacteria do not increase they actually decline due to a lack of oxygen. The more you raise the temp the higher the oxygen demand. So if you have higher temps don't give them more oxygen. DUH!!
If you take away the oxygen completely the water is now good growing media for anerobic bacteria. They grow where there is no oxygen. They like higher temperture even than the aerobic bacteria. Thats why in all those nooks and crannies where there is filth such as rotting roots and such bacteria grows. if its warm. In the nooks and carnnies there is liitle oxygenated water flowing that can dissud se oxygen through the filths so anerrobic bacteria grow there. However a typical reservoir or a well draining system like traditional hydro or a good aero system never reaches a condition where there is no oxygen in the root zone or the reservoirs. Therefore a moderate rise in temperature 80's and lowering the DO does not increase bacterial but lowers it, until you reach a point where there is no oxygen. This applies to the bottom of poorly draining low pressure aero tubes where the spray is constant, water logged rock wool, and water logged soil grows. With moderately heated water ie. 70's and low 80's increasing the dissolved oxygen increases bacteria. Reservoirs at low temperatures 60 to 75 degrees have a lower growth of bacteria with low DO, however with systems like DWC and bubbleponics low DO means poor growth. With soil grows with poor drainage iusing low DO nutrienr t water is also bad for growth. Increase the DO of a reservoirs water that is in the 60 to 70 degrre range and you will incraes bacterial growth in the resrvoir. PERIOD. Raise the tempearture 10 degrees or even 15 without also supplying more DO and the bacteria will not significantly increase as the bacteria are oxygen dependant. With aero the root rot is not caused by low reservoir DO but because of stagnant way ter in the bottom of the tubes that are full of roots. Water sprayed continously doses nor t dissuse down into the root mass layinf g in the bottom of the tubes but maily gflows on top of the roots. So the water that is surrounging the roots in the bottom of the tubes is anoxic (absent of oxygen or nearly so). The way to deal with thai iis not to incraese you resrvoir DO but instead use intermittant spray so that the stagnant water drains awsy and then fresh sprayed oxygenated water replaces it. Spraying the nutrient water assures more oxygen than a bubler in the reservoir and it does not cause a high bacteraial growth as is caused by high reservoir DO. Spraying means just high DO where its needed, at the plants roots not in the resrvoir where it increases bacterial growth.
Just look at it like this. If you incraese the temperati ure an, lighting and nutrients to your plants without supplying more CO2 you quickly reach the point where you have inadequate CO@ and your plants growth slows down to even laess that what it was before you incraesed the nutrients lighting and temp. With bacteria it si the same way. They have a unlimited food as there are in anutrient d broth, but o if you increase the tempbut not thye O2 they put on a bit of growth unto il the deplete any excess O2 beyond their normal needs at the old temp then they drop back to slower growth than before the tempearture was raised because they are O2 starved. Its called evolution chump.
If you would give me any shred of literature, science, even a fucking link to some bs website you got this off of and i might consider all this BS ur trying to fill us with
But until then, ur just another chump on a keyboard spreading your infectious BS to new growers across this board
Fatman your the only man i have ever heard say that hot water and no oxygen is good for a res
And i dont know about you??? But i am a scholarly man and being that you are one too, well you claim to be, then you must agree that evidence, proof, literature all all very important in science
Now assuming you actually have degrees in the fields you claim you do, i would assume you have sometime written a scientific research paper somehwere along the line
Now, at the end of your paper wat it there?
OOOO a WORKS CITED
The most important part of the paper, cuz it tells you
WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL THAT BS YOU JUST WROTE DOWN COME FROM??????
You have given me no shred of evidence, and until you do your degrees and all of your aclaimed growing skills go out the door
You, being a scholarly man should know the importance of PROOF,EVIDENCE now give me some
But until then, ur just another chump on a keyboard spreading your infectious BS to new growers across this board
Fatman your the only man i have ever heard say that hot water and no oxygen is good for a res
And i dont know about you??? But i am a scholarly man and being that you are one too, well you claim to be, then you must agree that evidence, proof, literature all all very important in science
Now assuming you actually have degrees in the fields you claim you do, i would assume you have sometime written a scientific research paper somehwere along the line
Now, at the end of your paper wat it there?
OOOO a WORKS CITED
The most important part of the paper, cuz it tells you
WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL THAT BS YOU JUST WROTE DOWN COME FROM??????
You have given me no shred of evidence, and until you do your degrees and all of your aclaimed growing skills go out the door
You, being a scholarly man should know the importance of PROOF,EVIDENCE now give me some
Consciousness420
Well-Known Member
Yepper, everything fatman has posted is true (science).. however, Im going to just say in plain words for the other dudes who may browse this posting that for a drip system in rockwool for example, it is not necessary to pump o2 into the reservoir; HOWEVER, if the plants roots HAVE reached the solution and are sitting in stagnant water, you could possibly get root rot and at the least the leaves will droop and the plants overall health will be in jeopardy. I run a drip system in rockwool and as soon as the roots find the solution I put a little aquarium o2 blower in there and the leaves perk back up immediately; the plant roots will do well in the oxygenated solution (no such thing as too much oxygen in the solution - the plant roots will absorb what they need); all the talk about bacterial growth I think is not really the point here (if it happens, fine just add some H2O2).. but in a flood and drain for sure it is good to have o2 pumping into the solution for the entire grow.. good luck!
fatman7574
New Member
Have a good day little boy.Id watch out for this mans statements
He speaks many big words, but never provides actually pictures of his grow nor provides any links for any of his information
I do not supply photos as my last trial and conviction clearly showed that photos are a public proclimation of guilt as far as judges and jurors are concerned. DUH!
Its all heresay and his experience.
And 35 years growing experience and over tens years of college education.
Here are some LINKS with other growers OPINIONS
The Importance of Reservoir Water Temperature
Water temperature is an often overlooked yet extremely important aspect of hydroponic gardening especially in water culture or aeroponic farmers. As summer rapidly approaches I think it is important to discuss this issue.
Water temperature plays an important role with the oxygen content and with bacteria growth in a typical hydroponic reservoir. When water temps rise the oxygen levels drop and bacteria growth increases. Generally speaking water temperature should be in the 68° to 72° F. range.
http://www.simplyhydro.com/previous.htm#The%20Importance%20of%20Reservoir%20Water%20Temperature
An opinion that is wrong from another dumb ass like you and Roseman.
Why do I need cool root temperatures?
High root zone temperatures often plague indoor growers running water culture (aero/bubbler/dwc/hydro) systems.
This is another Dumb ass statement. What applies to DWC and Bubblepoinic does not apply to a good aero systems or traditional properly draining inert hydro system. Yes it does apply to DWC and Bubbleponics as rther are aquaculture systems with theor roots pr urposely in the nurtrient reservoir.
These systems are subject to rapid heating by intense HID lighting, which increases root zone temperaturewhich decreases dissolved oxygen DO levels.Yes but this only really matters to the systems other than well designes aero and traditonla hydro systems, such as DWC, bubble ponis and continously running low pressure aero in small tubes such as an Earl system.
Rapid plant growth, combined with low DO levels, can cause oxygen deprivation which in turn can result in infection by opportunistic pathogens such as pythium. Another stupid statement/myth. What has rapid plant growth got to do with pythium. Roots sitting in an anoxic or near anoxic saturated mass cause most opportunistic patogens usch as pythium.
The key to maximum growth is to keep the air temperature at 75-80F, but the root zone at 68F or less. Note: the reservoir should be kept slightly cooler than the rootzone - irrigation and system heating will warm the water by the time it reaches the roots.
More dumb ass stuff, that is just old regurgitated crap wfor before the days of CO2 aero and Hydro etc. Plants can easily handle 80, 90 or even 95 with CO2 and a good aero or hydro is fine with low DO reservoir water at 65 to 85 degrees.
Optimum root growth occurs at 70-75F; however, destructive root diseases also grow and reproduce rapidly at these root temperatures. Maintaining nutrient temperatures at or under 68F maximizes root growth and DO, and inhibits pythium.
Once again dumb ass stuff that is old and outdated and only applies to bubbleponics and DWC aqua culture systems. What inhibits pythium is not having the roots in low do water or anonic conditions. Pythium will develop at low temps if the DO is very low or the conditions are anoxic or nearly so as in water looged root masses in low pressure aero 24/7 sprayed systems.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/8621-how-keep-your-reservoir-cool.html
I have fully explained the problems and will do so agin and hopefuuly dum asses like you will be able to learn something.
If you keep nutrient properly oxygenated, 65F to 75F nutrient temp is fine. The oxygen content of a fully aerated solution at 10C (50 F) is about 13ppm, but as the solution warms up to 20 C (68 F) the ability of the liquid to 'hold' oxygen drops to 9 - 10ppm, by the time the solution has reached 30 C (86 F), then it's only 7ppm.
Plant roots want oxygen.............
That is true dumb ass. In a bubbleponic or DWC stystem you nmust supply that DO in the water as they are aqua culture systems. Aero and traditional hydro do not have there roots laying in water except in poorly designed constantly running low pressure aero systems. Dout even incerasinf resrvoir DO does not help them aas they problem is oxygen does not dissude through the water soooed root mass laying in the bottom of the tubes. With a well des igned aero sch as a intermittant misted system such as a medium or high pressure aero this m not an issue as the water darins awys between sprayim ngs so the roots even in the bottom of the tube receive lots oxygen and fresh nutrient water. Traditional hydro seldom ever hasve Pyth problems unless the choice of media does not allow for good darinage such as rockwool. Agood earo or ht ydro systems plants roots lawys have more than adequate mouny ts of O2 in the roots zone.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hydro/msg0111354428224.html
Keeping your hydropnics nutrient solution cool is easy. Hydroponics systems are a great way to grow a healthy
Wow, that is really a dumb, dumb, dumb ass statement. Algae growth is a result of light. There are always every other condition need for algae growth in a reservoir. Algae actulally oxygenate water not remove oxygen or prevent a high DO. Yeas a higher temp means without aeration the DO level will be lower. But once again this only matters with aquaculture systems lo ike bubble phonics and DWC. . Algae wilgrow at about any themp as long as they have light and nutrients,
Many people struggle to keep the temperatures within the optimal range so their plants end up suffering. The hyroponics gardener who struggle to keep nutrient solutions temperatures cool ends up seeing fewer yields. They end up spending a lot of time fighting algae and root rot due to low dissolved oxygen levels because of high nutrient solution temperatures. The following are easy steps you can take to bring those nutrient solution temperatures down.
Once again this is just more aquaculture based crap. Yes DWC people and Bubbleponic people suffer from these pron blems but they are not the problems of aero and traditional hydro growers.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5041485_easily-nutrient-solution-temperatures-cool.html
These are the facts; warm water holds less oxygen than cold water, Howe ever, very cold water can be detrimental to the plants, effectively shocking the root system until the water warms up enough for the plants to get over this shock.
You will not shock an aero plant or its roots by spraying it with the same temperaturewater as the air temp in which the planys are growing , nor will you shock a traditional hydro plants roots by using reservoir water the same temp as the palny ts and te iar it s is surrounded by. They do not care much what the DO level of the water is being delivered to them as they get over 98% of their O2 from the air. Yes spraying water much colder on the roots than the room air temperature can shock plants grown in an aero or traditional hydro systems. That is why most tof the time it is better not to chill the resrvoir water much with aero or traditional hydro. About a 10 degree difference is about the max.
One the other hand, very warm water has a detrimental effect on a plant, again shocking the plants roots until it cools to a level that enables the roots to recover from the shock.
Bull shit except with aqua culture. Again the roots are fine with temps equal to the palnts temp earture or the room temp which shopuld be the same.
So, the colder and fresher the water, the more oxygen content; the warmer, the less.
And once again to aqua culture systems this matters, but not to properly built aero or traditioanl hydro systems. Unfortunately do to people building ssytems like Earl's aero system there are a lot of porly built aero systems out there runniing low pressure pumps supplying trickling misters high volume sprayers 24 hours per day with roots lying in anoxic or neraly anoxic water 24 hours per day. Even high DO reservoirs at low temps acn not help them.
Approximately .0014% of DO can be found in very cold, fresh water. Appx .0008% of DO can be found in fresh water at room temp and water at room temp is exactly how the plants like it. Appx .0005% of DO can be found in fresh water at 86F. So as illustrated below, heating your water too much can be very detrimental to your plants potential.
Dumb ass stuff. What is room temperture? We have a guy in the Middle east who writes to this forum. Room temps thare are 95 degrees. And once again who cares about the nataural amount of DO of water at 65 versus 85 degrees if your not running an aqua culture grow like bubbleponics aor DWC.
Oxygen obtained via the roots directly from the nutrient solution only makes up 1% of the plants needs. Finally a statement that matters. So the oxygen supplied via the nutrient solution is only a minor source supplied to the roots. Aerating the nutrient solution will help, however this mainly serves to kill off any pathogens,
basically keeping the nutrient fresher for longer.
Oh well a liitle bit of good info was better than none. Aerating your reservoir will not kill off pathogens. The only patogens in your reservoir that are killed off to any extent is the naerobo ic bactertia that live only in an absence of oxygen. The cahnces of these living any where is a claen reservoir are very remote anye way. They would l have to live under a layer of filth in nooks and crannies and that is the only way theu y could survive in a resrvoir with any water movement and surface contact with oxygenated air.
So you can see that allowing the plants some dry time will serve to get more air to the roots.
Real dumb ass statement. Roots should never be allowed to dry out but they should also nver be in anoxic water. Roots should lalwys be either wet or moist due to high relative humidity in the area surrounding them. That is why high pressure aero or air atomized aero is so much better at growing most plants that low pressure or hydro. They provide nore esaily controlled optimal conditions for roots.
Even in aeroponics, which delivers a highly oxygenates solution directly to the root ball, its essential to give the plants some dry time. No never dry time!!! But yes it is better for them not to be srayed constantly.
Another technique is to add H2O2 to the reservoir, which again due to its extra oxygen atom, increases the DO in the reservoir. More importantly it is a very strong oxidants so it disinfects even better than chlorine, but its efeects are more short lived than chlorine. Chlorine can have residula disinfection effects for up to 24 hours or so. Hydrogen peroxide is nearly immediatte but has no long term residual disinfection abilities. However, when H202 is diluted, it becomes unstable and soon breaks down and dissolves completely into the reservoir, so it normally will only oxygenate the reservoir for a few hours. Also, when H2O2 is regularly administered to the reservoir, it keeps the nutrient solution fresher for longer. However, overdoing H2O2 can be very detrimental to the food chains in your reservoir Only with organic nutrients and detrimental to the plants roots. True, any oxidant used in excessive dosages can harm or even kill roots. If you have ever put hydrogen peroxide straight from the bottle on a cut you would notice it kills live tissue arounf d the cuts edge. In high doses, it attacks many usable food chains that the plants will be deprived of. Not really with chemical fertilizers but yes with organic fertilizers.
High-oxygenated root systems benefit from another very important fact. Oxygen manipulates and affects the electrical charges found in water and for that fact, nutrients. This change in electrical charges allows roots to uptake water and nutrients with a lot less energy compared to non-oxygenated root systems, so clearly roots benefit from as much oxygen as you can provide them. Wow, that is a really wild stretch. Oxygen in a nutrient solution has very minimal impact is this manner unless your talking about anoxic (absence of oxygen) or near anoxic nutrient solutions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4QftE_Y3B2YC&pg=PT65&lpg=PT65&dq=hydroponic+reservoir+temperature&source=bl&ots=dMHB3hZki2&sig=6601B6ft25bbb5TZJbOqtaOJCCA&hl=en&ei=ylkXS9mFD4auMLvtoPYC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Im gonna tell you right now bra, high levels of oxygen are good for you system, whether its areopoincs, hydroponics, any fucking ponics
Oxygen in the root system is good for living plants, period No shit dumb ass. Wow You actually wrote something your self that was worth reading. Let me guess you read it some where that you plagerized, like nearly evertyhing else you wrote.
How ever this has little to do with whiners and dumb asses who think all reservoirs for all systems have to have high DO at all y tmes regarless of the temp amd those dumb asses who think reservoir temps must alwys be kept low. Yes plant roots need oxygen. But like I said all along a good aero system or a traditional Hyrp system does not gain by high aDO nutrient reservoir but it can quite often be a debit.
Dont listen to this water analysist guy telling you to let your res temps rise and DO levels to drop.......he is flat out WRONG NOT.
You are a flat out dumb ass. Did you read what you do just wrote. Don't listen to the water analysist. Now that is definitely a clear indication that the writer is a dumb ass. I probably have more professuional text on the subject than you have IQ points.
Last time I checked and civil engineering degree and water BS degree has nothing to do with growing plants.
I am sure you think the courses in biological water and waste water systenm design. The minor in organic chemistry, the minor in inorganic chemistry, the many courses in aquatic chemistry, the courMasters degree in Biology, the Doctorates degree in Environmental Engineering, or the fact that I run a water resourses laboratory and teach courses in Environmental Engineering and Civil engineering (my Bachelors) mean nothing, yet alone over 35 years of pot growing experience.
Do YOUR OWN research next time bra, all this shit can be found on the web
Yeah he can always find dumb ass people like you with not a thimble full of education, knowlege or experience who talk shit and repost old tired myths and stupid non substantiateablecrap like k he regurgitated and posted links to. They are posted and written by people who read comic book quaility pot growing books and therefore think they are experts. They do just like this dirt bag and just regurgiate garbage.
Dont listen to some old man who sits on these boards cuz hes got no life telling you to add H2O2 and chlorine to your res, once again he is VERY WRONG and has nothing but his own "degrees" which have nothing to do with growing to back him up
Dumb ass I have grown more bud than you will likely ever see in your life, unless your possibly a cop. Yeah, your likely dumb enough for that.
It appears fatman is not accurate, I do not want to be involved in the fight, but I found countless examples to prove this point, but here it is plain as day:
"some microbes require dissolved oxygen to live (aerobic), and others do not (anaerobic). As a general rule of thumb, aerobic bacteria are "good" and anaerobic are "bad." Put simply, the by-products of anaerobic respiration are acids that wreak havoc . . . Warm stagnant water holds little dissolved oxygen, making it an ideal breeding ground for anaerobic bacteria, many of which cause crop failure as they take up home in the fragile root system and proliferate."
Source: How to Hydroponics, Keith Roberto, available at, http://books.google.com/books?id=e5xLkJLTMygC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=anaerobic+bacteria+aerobic+hydroponics+oxygen+dissolved&source=bl&ots=K31bFmNaH7&sig=cu7GLNVB59IfSLAvlVu15y5sZPA&hl=en&ei=puc_S4D6A5H-nAfn27WkCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=anaerobic bacteria aerobic hydroponics oxygen dissolved&f=false
i.e., aerate it.
"some microbes require dissolved oxygen to live (aerobic), and others do not (anaerobic). As a general rule of thumb, aerobic bacteria are "good" and anaerobic are "bad." Put simply, the by-products of anaerobic respiration are acids that wreak havoc . . . Warm stagnant water holds little dissolved oxygen, making it an ideal breeding ground for anaerobic bacteria, many of which cause crop failure as they take up home in the fragile root system and proliferate."
Source: How to Hydroponics, Keith Roberto, available at, http://books.google.com/books?id=e5xLkJLTMygC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=anaerobic+bacteria+aerobic+hydroponics+oxygen+dissolved&source=bl&ots=K31bFmNaH7&sig=cu7GLNVB59IfSLAvlVu15y5sZPA&hl=en&ei=puc_S4D6A5H-nAfn27WkCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=anaerobic bacteria aerobic hydroponics oxygen dissolved&f=false
i.e., aerate it.
fatman7574
New Member
Ie anaerobic bacteria grow in anoxic conditions (zero oxygen). I know of no one advocating a reservoir with zero oxygen. The only areas of a warm resrvoir would be areas where garbage or thick layers of organic matter have accumlated. I also do not believe I ever advocated allowing accumalations of organic matter such as dead roots accumalate in a reservoir. Unless Keith Roberto is using a waster water treatment reservoir for a resrvoir he is talking out his blow hole. I designed water and waste water systems. I am quaite well aware of biological systems as they relate to water. It requires very liitle DO to provide conditions that will not support anerobic bacteria. You can have high temops and more than adeqaute DO to prevent aneraobic bactieria from multiplying as long as t you keep orgainics out of your reservoir or simply change the reservi oir water on a regular basis. If you are simply lazy or cheap yp ou can very simply keep Pyth eradicated and anerobic bacteria out of your reservoir buy using chlorine. Chloro ine is y uased by nearly all commercial green houses and by huge numbers of commercial pot growers as well as hobby growers. Look up Flairform Pythoff. Neither aerobic or anerobic bacteria are bad as they only convert orgnic matter into a form of nitrogen usable by plants. In reality aerobic bacteria acuse more problems as they grow in oxygen rich environments and use a ge reat dael of DO. Anerobic bacteria are no better but they do not use DO as they only proliferate in an absence of DO. If your going to quote from a hydroponics book at least learn what your quoting so as to not quote out of context and quote something that means something from somebody that has some idea what he is talking about. Both aerobic and anerobic bacteria prodo uce an acid environment. You also need to llok at he adrreessses warm stganant water not circulating reservoir water. In other words he is talking out his blow hole and your buying it. Read what is actually written. Duh warm water holds less DO. Gee, is there anyone who has not read that repetaedly. The rest is simply garbage half truths.
As I said, I was trying to give the simplest quote, but have countless other examples. Horticulture is not quite as straigtforward as you seem to think. I love that your now attacking authors. I can agree with your observations of hydroponics, I do disagree with your theories about what those observations mean. For example, that it is a "debit" to aerate an aeroponic resevoir when the temp is rising. It's simply not true, are you still arguing otherwise?
Note, you also say you need to replace stagnant water with fresh, but then say don't aerate it, but replacing stagnant with fresh IS aerating it.
Also, your theory on oxygen diffusing into water is not relevant to whether the water at the bottom of the bucket is aerated. When a pump recirculates water through oxygen, it all gets aerated, that's what recirculating does.
And of course, we can all clean or chlorine our res., but that is not what we are talking about, I am only addressing your recommendations regarding aeroponic aeration.
Look, I'm here to learn and that is how I happened on your post, which threw me for a loop, until I went back to basics. That's my side, if you want to disagree, please do, but no need to personally attack everyone that disagrees with you, including respected authors. Clearly, the weight of scientific evidence is against your theories (note, you seem to understand hydroponic rules, I take issue with your synthesis of the rules and your recommendations based thereon.)
Anyway, if you want more citation, I'm happy to provide. Good luck and please provide me with some citation, like I said I want to learn and don't care if I am dead wrong, I'm no expert, but occasionally get things right, but just to show you I am not trying to win, here is a grow I did, lettuce and tomatoes, where I learned some real lessons about root rot as these bad boys all had it:
fatman7574
New Member
Dude, I have a Phd in Environmental Engineering. I design systems for biological processes such as water treatment plants, waste water treatment plants, fish hatcheries and yes green houses. I am in charge of a water resources laboratory and teach civil engineering and environmetal engineering. Yes I occasionally attack the writing of the comic book grade book authors who have no formal education in the fields in which they write.
Adding O2 to a reservoir when the temperature is rising simply increases bacterialogical growth. True hydroponic aor aeroponic system roots receive 1% or less of its roots oxygen from reservoir water DO. Period. Sure rank DWC and bubbleponic systems will gain a sk light bit by the attempts to raise the DO but I do not recomend thaose growing systems, just as I do not recomend low pressure aero or small tube aero. All of these systems suffer from low DO problems regardless of the amount of eartaion etc provided.
No one has yet to produce scientific evidence that shows anything but that colder ater can hold more DO. Air holds more O2 than water, so why are aso many people still growing in systems they must break their backs trying to get enough O2 into play? Because they listen to people like you! That's sad!
I do not bash authors who jnow what they are talking about. Who are educated and trained in the areas in which they are writing. How ever most books in print are written by laymen you quote out of context and who typically just repetaed what they have read and learned from online forums and assisting people who know what they are doing. Technicians often have no idea of why they do what they are trained to do, only how to do it.
I doubt you can provide me with any profession papers showing me I am wrong, and I have no desire to read marketing crap or Forum posts or crap from comic book grade horticulture or Pot growing books written by laymen who merely base everything on myths and opinions
Adding O2 to a reservoir when the temperature is rising simply increases bacterialogical growth. True hydroponic aor aeroponic system roots receive 1% or less of its roots oxygen from reservoir water DO. Period. Sure rank DWC and bubbleponic systems will gain a sk light bit by the attempts to raise the DO but I do not recomend thaose growing systems, just as I do not recomend low pressure aero or small tube aero. All of these systems suffer from low DO problems regardless of the amount of eartaion etc provided.
No one has yet to produce scientific evidence that shows anything but that colder ater can hold more DO. Air holds more O2 than water, so why are aso many people still growing in systems they must break their backs trying to get enough O2 into play? Because they listen to people like you! That's sad!
I do not bash authors who jnow what they are talking about. Who are educated and trained in the areas in which they are writing. How ever most books in print are written by laymen you quote out of context and who typically just repetaed what they have read and learned from online forums and assisting people who know what they are doing. Technicians often have no idea of why they do what they are trained to do, only how to do it.
I doubt you can provide me with any profession papers showing me I am wrong, and I have no desire to read marketing crap or Forum posts or crap from comic book grade horticulture or Pot growing books written by laymen who merely base everything on myths and opinions
Like I said, I am not afraid to be wrong and am here to learn, should i list my degrees? but you have to do more than try to discredit me to convince me.
SEEMS TO BE PICTURE TIME FOR YOU
let's see your grow or sewer, I'll not only admit i'm wrong, ill ask for advice. But if you ain't got no proof, then I'm signing off.
SEEMS TO BE PICTURE TIME FOR YOU
let's see your grow or sewer, I'll not only admit i'm wrong, ill ask for advice. But if you ain't got no proof, then I'm signing off.
fatman7574
New Member
If you got past high school sure list your formal education. Likely it does not exist. As for whether or not you wish to believe anything I write, I really do not care one way or the other. I am posting for those who wish to learn not those who haven't a clue but are simply content sheep that must look at pictures as they have to little intelligence to garner knowledge from words. I do not post pictures of grows but I can look up some some sewage plant photos if shit is what turns your crank. By the way what is that sick grow in your posted photos. That's sick.