Bone Meal vs Bat Guano release times

So I've been growing for about five years, and recently switched to growing organically. I've mostly been doing compost teas and top dressings but for this next round I'm doing some soil mix experiments trying narrow in on a technique and I'm wondering if anyone has any insight. So I know the benefit of organic, is the plant will take what it needs. But I'm a little unsure how that works when it comes to faster breaking down guano vs slower breaking down bone meal. Will the guano get used up quicker since it breaks down faster? Or will it remain just as long as the bone meal because the plant will just use it up as it needs it?

I'm growing ten plants for my test.

My soil mix is the same for them both. Locally sourced compost (Hammond Farms in mid Michigan is the shit!), perlite, and vermiculite, worm castings, Kelp meal, Azomite, greensand, Gypsum.

The difference is six of them also have blood, and bone meal. While the other four are Mexican and Indonesian bat guano.

I'm super excited to see how this turns out and will post my progress just wondering about anyone else's experience!

Rasta Roy said:

So I've been growing for about five years, and recently switched to growing organically. I've mostly been doing compost teas and top dressings but for this next round I'm doing some soil mix experiments trying narrow in on a technique and I'm wondering if anyone has any insight. So I know the benefit of organic, is the plant will take what it needs. But I'm a little unsure how that works when it comes to faster breaking down guano vs slower breaking down bone meal. Will the guano get used up quicker since it breaks down faster? Or will it remain just as long as the bone meal because the plant will just use it up as it needs it?

I'm growing ten plants for my test.

My soil mix is the same for them both. Locally sourced compost (Hammond Farms in mid Michigan is the shit!), perlite, and vermiculite, worm castings, Kelp meal, Azomite, greensand, Gypsum.

The difference is six of them also have blood, and bone meal. While the other four are Mexican and Indonesian bat guano.

I'm super excited to see how this turns out and will post my progress just wondering about anyone else's experience!

Click to expand...

Get a good mask or respirator. Bone blood meals a d guanos can be nasty for your health

That being. Said. Bone meals csn take years. Snd many runs to fully be used up. Guanos ime are maybe good for one run.

But. I would think about skipping yhe guano and slaughterhouse products. Instead neem seed meal. Aflafa. Crab meal. Fish bone meal( much bettrr alternative to your bone meal) and You got your kelp already. 4 cupsnutrients per cf. 3-4 cups minerals per cf.
Dont forget peat? And or coir. Youll want something besides compost and airation. 1 part ewc. 1 part peat. 1 part araition. Than per cf half gallon of compost or so. Ectra for top dress. But since ever amendment breaks doene differently a lsrge diversity is a good practice with nutrients in soils. Best of luck

green_machine_two9er said:

Get a good mask or respirator. Bone blood meals a d guanos can be nasty for your health

That being. Said. Bone meals csn take years. Snd many runs to fully be used up. Guanos ime are maybe good for one run.

But. I would think about skipping yhe guano and slaughterhouse products. Instead neem seed meal. Aflafa. Crab meal. Fish bone meal( much bettrr alternative to your bone meal) and You got your kelp already. 4 cupsnutrients per cf. 3-4 cups minerals per cf.
Dont forget peat? And or coir. Youll want something besides compost and airation. 1 part ewc. 1 part peat. 1 part araition. Than per cf half gallon of compost or so. Ectra for top dress. But since ever amendment breaks doene differently a lsrge diversity is a good practice with nutrients in soils. Best of luck

Click to expand...

I'm avoiding peat moss because it's not a sustainable resources and it breaks down and gets more acidic over time. And I'm no fan of Coco. Only ever had subpar grows out of it. The vermiculite has the water and nutrient holding capabilities I need.

Definitely got a respirator! I'm not against slaughterhouse products (I eat bacon and that rolls in shit before it dies) but I love fish bone meal for the taste it brings and it's traditionally my go to but bone meal was on sale at menards...and I always have to go to this one specific grow store just for fish bone meal...so there you go. Do you know if fish bone meal carries the same hearty amount of calcium that bone meal has (20somethingpercent)? I use Alfalfa teas during veg so I usually don't bother with it in the soil.

Mainly I want to see are the guano plants going to take up all the phosphorus they break down right away, or will it take them the whole flower period? Bone meal or fish bone meal with its slower break down time should provide for the whole life but I want to see the side by side.

Guanos have a greater water solubility over the meals. You'll need to reapply them more often depending on your watering methods and soil volume.

Give coco another try. Some are much better than others. Cheaper ones need lots of rinse to remove salts. Just like life, "variety is the "spice" of organic gardening." I like a wide variety of organic materials and reuse as much as possible. Recently discovered a good source of llama/alpaca manure, and it gave my reused mix a great boost. Get on the mailing list for kelp4less dot com and buy on their 2-for-1 Tuesday promotions. Recently purchased added their silica and my stems seem stronger and the claim is the plant becomes overall much more disease resistant and drought tolerant. Just keep building your organic base and you'll enjoy benefits for years to come.

I definitely want to keep reusing, that's why I've been avoiding peat but maybe I'll give Coco another shot. I can get a 40 lbs bag of high quality locally made organic compost made from food scraps for $3.50 so it's hard to find the desire to look elsewhere for grow mediums but I'll look into Coco again. And I'll check out that kelp4less site that sounds awesome, I go through bags like crazy.

bigskymtnguy said:

Give coco another try. Some are much better than others. Cheaper ones need lots of rinse to remove salts. Just like life, "variety is the "spice" of organic gardening." I like a wide variety of organic materials and reuse as much as possible. Recently discovered a good source of llama/alpaca manure, and it gave my reused mix a great boost. Get on the mailing list for kelp4less dot com and buy on their 2-for-1 Tuesday promotions. Recently purchased added their silica and my stems seem stronger and the claim is the plant becomes overall much more disease resistant and drought tolerant. Just keep building your organic base and you'll enjoy benefits for years to come.

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Thanks for the tips!

Rasta Roy said:

I definitely want to keep reusing, that's why I've been avoiding peat but maybe I'll give Coco another shot. I can get a 40 lbs bag of high quality locally made organic compost made from food scraps for $3.50 so it's hard to find the desire to look elsewhere for grow mediums but I'll look into Coco again. And I'll check out that kelp4less site that sounds awesome, I go through bags like crazy.

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This is kinda old news and I'm just going to touch on it if you would care to research out the real story. The bit about peat and the renewability/sustainability is mostly BS put out by the coco industry to draw attention away from clear cutting forests for coconut plantations and the child/slave(ish) labor they use. Plus, peat moss is superior to coco in both CEC and microbe activity. Pretty much a smear campaign and has been thoroughly debunked, but the myth still hangs around.

I don't use guanos simply due to cost. Have used bone meal for years with no problems. Yeah, it's slow, but I reuse my peat based mix so it's all good.

Sorry to be no help with the guano question.

Wet

Wetdog said:

This is kinda old news and I'm just going to touch on it if you would care to research out the real story. The bit about peat and the renewability/sustainability is mostly BS put out by the coco industry to draw attention away from clear cutting forests for coconut plantations and the child/slave(ish) labor they use. Plus, peat moss is superior to coco in both CEC and microbe activity. Pretty much a smear campaign and has been thoroughly debunked, but the myth still hangs around.

I don't use guanos simply due to cost. Have used bone meal for years with no problems. Yeah, it's slow, but I reuse my peat based mix so it's all good.

Sorry to be no help with the guano question.

Wet

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Good to know about the coco industry! I know that spaghnam peat moss from Canada uses sound and renewable practices so I'm not totally against. How many grows can you use your peat moss for before it becomes too acidic? Or do you just add more lime to counter? Do you have add anything additional in flower for phosphorus or does the bone meal cover it for you?

Rasta Roy said:

I'm avoiding peat moss because it's not a sustainable resources and it breaks down and gets more acidic over time. And I'm no fan of Coco. Only ever had subpar grows out of it. The vermiculite has the water and nutrient holding capabilities I need.

Definitely got a respirator! I'm not against slaughterhouse products (I eat bacon and that rolls in shit before it dies) but I love fish bone meal for the taste it brings and it's traditionally my go to but bone meal was on sale at menards...and I always have to go to this one specific grow store just for fish bone meal...so there you go. Do you know if fish bone meal carries the same hearty amount of calcium that bone meal has (20somethingpercent)? I use Alfalfa teas during veg so I usually don't bother with it in the soil.

Mainly I want to see are the guano plants going to take up all the phosphorus they break down right away, or will it take them the whole flower period? Bone meal or fish bone meal with its slower break down time should provide for the whole life but I want to see the side by side.

Click to expand...

It's not that it's a "slaughterhouse" product, it's the fact that it can kill you, prion disease is some seriously scary shit.
http://www.alz.org/dementia/creutzfeldt-jakob-disease-cjd-symptoms.asp
also look into spongiform bovine encelepathy
http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/GuidanceComplianceEnforcement/ComplianceEnforcement/BovineSpongiformEncephalopathy/default.htm

It takes decades to manifest, and some theorists actually believe that alzheimers is the same thing...
soooo
yea...
fishbone meal, over bovine spinal dust

Porcine bone meal is an equal substitute to bovine bone meal. Nothing rivals fish bone meal or even better yet, whole fish finley chopped or pureed. Like most have said, DIVERSITY is key.

Rasta Roy said:

So I've been growing for about five years, and recently switched to growing organically. I've mostly been doing compost teas and top dressings but for this next round I'm doing some soil mix experiments trying narrow in on a technique and I'm wondering if anyone has any insight. So I know the benefit of organic, is the plant will take what it needs. But I'm a little unsure how that works when it comes to faster breaking down guano vs slower breaking down bone meal. Will the guano get used up quicker since it breaks down faster? Or will it remain just as long as the bone meal because the plant will just use it up as it needs it?

I'm growing ten plants for my test.

My soil mix is the same for them both. Locally sourced compost (Hammond Farms in mid Michigan is the shit!), perlite, and vermiculite, worm castings, Kelp meal, Azomite, greensand, Gypsum.

The difference is six of them also have blood, and bone meal. While the other four are Mexican and Indonesian bat guano.

I'm super excited to see how this turns out and will post my progress just wondering about anyone else's experience!

Click to expand...

Vermiculite is some really good shit, however I found there to be certain issues with it...
It was GREAT cec, in fact maybe the best.
But it doesn't do well over time, so if you want to reuse your soil, it may create problems.
As far as guanos, in my experience they do well as topdressings and as teas, but they are a bit more water soluble for my liking, as far as a soil nutrient.
I prefer slower/more stable release nutrients that kinda stay where they are... so to speak.
water soluble nutrients follow the water, and therefore you can have issues over time.
If your compost is some good stuff (more vegetation based, rather than manure based) then you can sub out the vermiculite for the compost.
Keep in mind the greensand does nothing other than act as aeration for at least a year, but it's a good soil amendment for sure.

Wetdog said:

This is kinda old news and I'm just going to touch on it if you would care to research out the real story. The bit about peat and the renewability/sustainability is mostly BS put out by the coco industry to draw attention away from clear cutting forests for coconut plantations and the child/slave(ish) labor they use. Plus, peat moss is superior to coco in both CEC and microbe activity. Pretty much a smear campaign and has been thoroughly debunked, but the myth still hangs around.

I don't use guanos simply due to cost. Have used bone meal for years with no problems. Yeah, it's slow, but I reuse my peat based mix so it's all good.

Sorry to be no help with the guano question.

Wet

Click to expand...

Coco is a natural and prefered home for trichoderma, peat is not. Not saying tricoderma won't colonize it, their just not naturally found within it.
I've learned the CEC matters but the application of nutrient delivery and frequency also come into play with CEC. But each has their own attributes they bring to the table, which is why coco should always be in a soil mix.

greasemonkeymann said:

It's not that it's a "slaughterhouse" product, it's the fact that it can kill you, prion disease is some seriously scary shit.
http://www.alz.org/dementia/creutzfeldt-jakob-disease-cjd-symptoms.asp
also look into spongiform bovine encelepathy
http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/GuidanceComplianceEnforcement/ComplianceEnforcement/BovineSpongiformEncephalopathy/default.htm

It takes decades to manifest, and some theorists actually believe that alzheimers is the same thing...
soooo
yea...
fishbone meal, over bovine spinal dust

Click to expand...

Aren't prions most present in sheep proteins? I agree with you that fish bone meal is better just wondering. Do you worry about fish bone meal being heavy in metals or mercury from pollution or if they come from a fish factory does it matter?

Just wondering if fish suppliers are more ethical with their byproduct industry than the cattle industry? Or is fish just a better source even with the pollution risks?

greasemonkeymann said:

Vermiculite is some really good shit, however I found there to be certain issues with it...
It was GREAT cec, in fact maybe the best.
But it doesn't do well over time, so if you want to reuse your soil, it may create problems.
As far as guanos, in my experience they do well as topdressings and as teas, but they are a bit more water soluble for my liking, as far as a soil nutrient.
I prefer slower/more stable release nutrients that kinda stay where they are... so to speak.
water soluble nutrients follow the water, and therefore you can have issues over time.
If your compost is some good stuff (more vegetation based, rather than manure based) then you can sub out the vermiculite for the compost.
Keep in mind the greensand does nothing other than act as aeration for at least a year, but it's a good soil amendment for sure.

Click to expand...

My compost is 100% organic made from food waste from a repuateable local landscape and garden supplier in my area. Ill try doing some mixes without the vermiculite next round and see how they go.

Rasta Roy said:

Aren't prions most present in sheep proteins? I agree with you that fish bone meal is better just wondering. Do you worry about fish bone meal being heavy in metals or mercury from pollution or if they come from a fish factory does it matter?

Just wondering if fish suppliers are more ethical with their byproduct industry than the cattle industry? Or is fish just a better source even with the pollution risks?

Click to expand...

I can attest to farm raised fish being more "Organically safe" when compared to open water caught. As a chemical applicator I'm always concerned of drift and run off into natural or man made waters. I'm legally and criminally liable if I'm to blame. A fish hatchery is more concerned with my type of employment and would immediately file a report if anything went wrong. There's alot of salmon and trout farms around my neck of the woods and I can assure you that if they care about my actions, they care about the water quality and it's source as well as feed they grow the fish on.

Grandpa GreenJeans said:

I can attest to farm raised fish being more "Organically safe" when compared to open water caught. As a chemical applicator I'm always concerned of drift and run off into natural or man made waters. I'm legally and criminally liable if I'm to blame. A fish hatchery is more concerned with my type of employment and would immediately file a report if anything went wrong. There's alot of salmon and trout farms around my neck of the woods and I can assure you that if they care about my actions, they care about the water quality and it's source as well as feed they grow the fish on.

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Hell yea good to know, thanks for the insight! I'll be sure to keep the fish bone meal over the bone meal in my next mix.

Rasta Roy said:

Aren't prions most present in sheep proteins? I agree with you that fish bone meal is better just wondering. Do you worry about fish bone meal being heavy in metals or mercury from pollution or if they come from a fish factory does it matter?

Just wondering if fish suppliers are more ethical with their byproduct industry than the cattle industry? Or is fish just a better source even with the pollution risks?

Click to expand...

not sure the relevence of that though man, you aren't using sheep bone meal, it's bovine.
I am much more afraid of prion disease than metal poisoning, but if the fishbone meal is from a good source, I doubt the metals are that high.
from my understanding, the accumulation of methylmercury in fish is stored in their muscles, and meat, rather than their bones.

Grandpa GreenJeans said:

I can attest to farm raised fish being more "Organically safe" when compared to open water caught. As a chemical applicator I'm always concerned of drift and run off into natural or man made waters. I'm legally and criminally liable if I'm to blame. A fish hatchery is more concerned with my type of employment and would immediately file a report if anything went wrong. There's alot of salmon and trout farms around my neck of the woods and I can assure you that if they care about my actions, they care about the water quality and it's source as well as feed they grow the fish on.

Click to expand...

careful though man, I've read many reports on farm raised fish being actually worse than wild.
Let me see if a can google some stuff on that, coulda swore I JUST read something about that a couple months ago

greasemonkeymann said:

careful though man, I've read many reports on farm raised fish being actually worse than wild.
Let me see if a can google some stuff on that, coulda swore I JUST read something about that a couple months ago

Click to expand...

I havent heard anything of the sort. But yes, please correct me if i was wrong.
This discrepency may vary by location and farm.