Biden Shanked The Progs

SpideyManDan

SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'll be glad when Trump is dead. The mfkr has been trying to kill me or didn't care if his actions cost me or mine their lives. I'll let that shit go when he's no longer a threat.


Tell us more about how awful Democrats are.
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I get it. It's hard, especially when you or a loved one is harmes. I dont know what I would do if a close relative died from this, but I do know that keeping that bottled in your soul only creates animus and eventually an anger that cant be quelled.

Having that inside you doesnt affect trump in anyway, in fact it does the opposite, and only hurts you and your mental wellbeing.

I know I'm not going to change your opinion over a couple comments on a forum, but hopefully after some time you realize this and grow from it. I wish everyone the best. Stay strong and realize that if we cant find some common ground with others, our country is doomed. :weed: bongsmilie
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
I get it. It's hard, especially when you or a loved one is harmes. I dont know what I would do if a close relative died from this, but I do know that keeping that bottled in your soul only creates animus and eventually an anger that cant be quelled.

Having that inside you doesnt affect trump in anyway, in fact it does the opposite, and only hurts you and your mental wellbeing.

I know I'm not going to change your opinion over a couple comments on a forum, but hopefully after some time you realize this and grow from it. I wish everyone the best. Stay strong and realize that if we cant find some common ground with others, our country is doomed. :weed: bongsmilie
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Wherever he's been and wherever he goes, he hurts people. It's just who he is. I'll be glad when that threat is no longer able to harm people.

So, no, I won't get teary eyed when he's gone.

Thank you for caring but you are mistaken.

Regarding finding common ground with Trumpers. How do you plan to do that?
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
I feel like a character on Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia, "what is happening?" Lets me real, no one is super excited about Biden. He is pretty vanilla. However, he is the perfect candidate to bring us back to the middle after this last 4 years of this wild fucking ride.

Progress is always a good idea. We need to move forward as a species to become better then what were in the past. BUT, rushing head first into uncharted, unplanned territory is never a good idea. I dont need anything for free, I dont want anything for free. I just dont want to be butt fucked (without lube) when i need to pay my premium or my deductible. We need to find a healthy balance. Whether you like it or not, we have to work with the other side. Thats how democracy works. So pull your god damn head out of your ass and stop fucking up the democratic party with your Bernie bullshit.

Ok im done. Enjoy everyone.
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we've been fvcked in every way possible through a feckless government under Trump..if only our framers took it one step further..but who would ever think they could do such a thing with Social Media?
 
SpideyManDan

SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
we've been fvcked in every way possible through a feckless government under Trump..if only our framers took it one step further..but who would ever think they could do such a thing with Social Media?
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Agreed. There is no denying that. This isnt a republican vs democrat thing, this is a man in a powerful position that is not just abusing power, but is fundamentally abusing and destroying our democratic republic that we hold so dear.

We have never truly witnessed something like this in the almost 250 years since the founding of this country. Hopefully we can learn and grow from this, realizing that we are a short, hop skip and a jump away from potentially becoming an autocracy. It only takes half of the county(more like a third because barely anyone votes :wall:) to throw away the last 250 years of tradition because of some imaginary enemy. I hate comparing things like this to Hitler because it trivializes what happen, but this has a very similar feel to it. A bunch of people get wound up, that anger is directed towards other countrymen or another country, and they follow a mad man into the depths of hell.

Now, I probably wont vote for a republican for a long time, if the party is even still around then, however, there are still some republicans by name who are reasonable and more moderate, we need to tap into those people and start progressing sane, logical policy. I mean hell, we havent passed a fucking budget in what, over ten years? We need to keep moving and progressing forward. Learn from our mistakes and move forward.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
Agreed. There is no denying that. This isnt a republican vs democrat thing, this is a man in a powerful position that is not just abusing power, but is fundamentally abusing and destroying our democratic republic that we hold so dear.

We have never truly witnessed something like this in the almost 250 years since the founding of this country. Hopefully we can learn and grow from this, realizing that we are a short, hop skip and a jump away from potentially becoming an autocracy. It only takes half of the county(more like a third because barely anyone votes :wall:) to throw away the last 250 years of tradition because of some imaginary enemy. I hate comparing things like this to Hitler because it trivializes what happen, but this has a very similar feel to it. A bunch of people get wound up, that anger is directed towards other countrymen or another country, and they follow a mad man into the depths of hell.

Now, I probably wont vote for a republican for a long time, if the party is even still around then, however, there are still some republicans by name who are reasonable and more moderate, we need to tap into those people and start progressing sane, logical policy. I mean hell, we havent passed a fucking budget in what, over ten years? We need to keep moving and progressing forward. Learn from our mistakes and move forward.
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To solve a problem one must first correctly diagnose its cause. I'd like to present an alternative to your theory, that "a man in a powerful position is fundamentally abusing and destroying our democratic republic". Some would say that Trump is a symptom and not a cause. There are layers to this issue. The outer layer is Trump, a layer under him are the people who wanted that kind of person at the top. What is it that caused so many people to stop listening to objective facts and turn to alternate reality?


There is a massive delivery system for disinformation in the world today, not just the US. Note that authoritarian populists like Trump are found elsewhere in the world too. It began in the 90's and today is so well developed that hours after the election a well coordinated wall of fake news was blaring nonstop about election fraud. Who funds and controls that?
 
SpideyManDan

SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
To solve a problem one must first correctly diagnose its cause. I'd like to present an alternative to your theory, that "a man in a powerful position is fundamentally abusing and destroying our democratic republic". Some would say that Trump is a symptom and not a cause. There are layers to this issue. The outer layer is Trump, a layer under him are the people who wanted that kind of person at the top. What is it that caused so many people to stop listening to objective facts and turn to alternate reality?


There is a massive delivery system for disinformation in the world today, not just the US . Note that authoritarian populists like Trump are found elsewhere in the world too. It began in the 90's and today is so well developed that hours after the election a well coordinated wall of fake news was blaring nonstop about election fraud. Who funds and controls that?
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That is pretty deep. Ive only in the last 4 years become more entuned with with whats really going on here and tbh I have trump to thank for that. I feel like after Obama became president there was this huge backlash on the conservative side and i believe thats what really kick started this in to motion. Conspiracy theories have always fluttered around now and then, but with the advent of social media and the reckless nature of the wild west of tech companies have things gotten substantial worse. Its crazy, we are literally in the age of information yet inaccuracies and conspiracies feel like they are at an all time high. We in the past, we may have disagreed on policy, but at least agreed on basic facts and unfortunately that is no longer the case.

As pertaining to the whole money thing, who knows, with dark money being spent behind the scenes and ,IIRC, the S.C. allowing this essentially from a verdict some 8 or 7 years ago. I cant remember the case off the top of my head. I dont agree with it, but we have meddled in so many other countries elections and political processes that this feels like its a really bad dose of karma..
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
That is pretty deep. Ive only in the last 4 years become more entuned with with whats really going on here and tbh I have trump to thank for that. I feel like after Obama became president there was this huge backlash on the conservative side and i believe thats what really kick started this in to motion. Conspiracy theories have always fluttered around now and then, but with the advent of social media and the reckless nature of the wild west of tech companies have things gotten substantial worse. Its crazy, we are literally in the age of information yet inaccuracies and conspiracies feel like they are at an all time high. We in the past, we may have disagreed on policy, but at least agreed on basic facts and unfortunately that is no longer the case.

As pertaining to the whole money thing, who knows, with dark money being spent behind the scenes and ,IIRC, the S.C. allowing this essentially from a verdict some 8 or 7 years ago. I cant remember the case off the top of my head. I dont agree with it, but we have meddled in so many other countries elections and political processes that this feels like its a really bad dose of karma..
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9/11 birthed the 24 hour news cycle and the decades since has seen millions of people walking around with undiagnosed PTSD.


Pinpoint accuracy to propagandize people with the exact lies they are most likely to fall for, and this is were we find ourselves after at least 6 years of a foreign military hijacking the Republican 'platform' for Trump while pushing people on the 'far left' out of believing their vote for the Democrats is worthwhile.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
That is pretty deep. Ive only in the last 4 years become more entuned with with whats really going on here and tbh I have trump to thank for that. I feel like after Obama became president there was this huge backlash on the conservative side and i believe thats what really kick started this in to motion. Conspiracy theories have always fluttered around now and then, but with the advent of social media and the reckless nature of the wild west of tech companies have things gotten substantial worse. Its crazy, we are literally in the age of information yet inaccuracies and conspiracies feel like they are at an all time high. We in the past, we may have disagreed on policy, but at least agreed on basic facts and unfortunately that is no longer the case.

As pertaining to the whole money thing, who knows, with dark money being spent behind the scenes and ,IIRC, the S.C. allowing this essentially from a verdict some 8 or 7 years ago. I cant remember the case off the top of my head. I dont agree with it, but we have meddled in so many other countries elections and political processes that this feels like its a really bad dose of karma..
Click to expand...
It's not dark money, spent behind the scenes that I'm talking about. It's out in the open for the most part. The Koch Brothers, for example have their own multi-million dollar PAC that they use to influence people and government. The DeVos family also plays on this field. Tracking with the rise in Fox so-called news is a rise in right wing radicalism. That trend goes back into the '90s.

This is an article about the rise of right wing radicalism in Sweden and its ties to US propaganda and Putin:

www.nytimes.com

The Global Machine Behind the Rise of Far-Right Nationalism (Published 2019)

Sweden was long seen as a progressive utopia. Then came waves of immigrants — and the forces of populism at home and abroad.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

To dig beneath the surface of what is happening in Sweden, though, is to uncover the workings of an international disinformation machine, devoted to the cultivation, provocation and amplification of far-right, anti-immigrant passions and political forces. Indeed, that machine, most influentially rooted in Vladimir V. Putin’s Russia and the American far right, underscores a fundamental irony of this political moment: the globalization of nationalism.

The central target of these manipulations from abroad — and the chief instrument of the Swedish nationalists’ success — is the country’s increasingly popular, and virulently anti-immigrant, digital echo chamber.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
It's not dark money, spent behind the scenes that I'm talking about. It's out in the open for the most part. The Koch Brothers, for example have their own multi-million dollar PAC that they use to influence people and government. The DeVos family also plays on this field. Tracking with the rise in Fox so-called news is a rise in right wing radicalism. That trend goes back into the '90s.

This is an article about the rise of right wing radicalism in Sweden and its ties to US propaganda and Putin:

www.nytimes.com

The Global Machine Behind the Rise of Far-Right Nationalism (Published 2019)

Sweden was long seen as a progressive utopia. Then came waves of immigrants — and the forces of populism at home and abroad.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

To dig beneath the surface of what is happening in Sweden, though, is to uncover the workings of an international disinformation machine, devoted to the cultivation, provocation and amplification of far-right, anti-immigrant passions and political forces. Indeed, that machine, most influentially rooted in Vladimir V. Putin’s Russia and the American far right, underscores a fundamental irony of this political moment: the globalization of nationalism.

The central target of these manipulations from abroad — and the chief instrument of the Swedish nationalists’ success — is the country’s increasingly popular, and virulently anti-immigrant, digital echo chamber.
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I found this part of that story very interesting:
Screen Shot 2020-11-28 at 2.26.58 PM.png


Especially since I was going to mention earlier that Russian TV on Youtube (Ruptly) is pushing live protests now, and I have noticed them in many of the American protests too.
Screen Shot 2020-11-28 at 2.28.39 PM.png
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
That is pretty deep. Ive only in the last 4 years become more entuned with with whats really going on here and tbh I have trump to thank for that. I feel like after Obama became president there was this huge backlash on the conservative side and i believe thats what really kick started this in to motion. Conspiracy theories have always fluttered around now and then, but with the advent of social media and the reckless nature of the wild west of tech companies have things gotten substantial worse. Its crazy, we are literally in the age of information yet inaccuracies and conspiracies feel like they are at an all time high. We in the past, we may have disagreed on policy, but at least agreed on basic facts and unfortunately that is no longer the case.

As pertaining to the whole money thing, who knows, with dark money being spent behind the scenes and ,IIRC, the S.C. allowing this essentially from a verdict some 8 or 7 years ago. I cant remember the case off the top of my head. I dont agree with it, but we have meddled in so many other countries elections and political processes that this feels like its a really bad dose of karma..
Click to expand...
let's stop sugar coating this to make ourselves feel better, that somehow it was out of our control; it's the choices we've made.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
let's stop sugar coating this to make ourselves feel better, that somehow it was out of our control; it's the choices we've made.
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I don't control the choices others make. I do believe that people make choices according to what they perceive as their own best interests. Trump's voters were not, I believe, trying to tear it all down. Maybe some but a relatively small number, that. So, you are right. People make their own choices. It's the influences behind those choices that I'm talking about. Some of it is social and cultural. Some of it is influenced externally. Some if it is Trump's cult of personality.

The contradiction that the radical right represent is: with all that information available, they chose to reject objectively verifiable information and consume fake stuff. Yes, they chose the fake stuff, but why? Is it all social and cultural influenced? Religion is part of it too.

Trump is a heavy player in this situation. But there is something underneath that I think is the root of the problem and it goes beyond Trump.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Two studies on the effects of media on how people voted. One from 2007 and one more recently.

I'm not going to copy and paste much from them.

The second study was reviewed on Vox and their summary is easier to digest:

www.vox.com

A stunning new study shows that Fox News is more powerful than we ever imagined

It could even be flipping elections.
www.vox.com www.vox.com

the first study, published in 2007 and looked into changes in voting patterns between 1996 and 2000 in communities after Fox began to broadcast in them. Fox came online earlier in some areas than in others and the study compared shifts in voter sentiment based when Fox began to pump their brand of "news" into them. Their conclusion:

We find a significant effect of exposure to Fox News on voting. Towns with Fox News have a 0.4 to 0.7 percentage point higher Republican vote share in the 2000 presidential elections, compared to the 1996 elections. A vote shift of this magnitude is likely to have been decisive in the 2000 elections. We also find an effect on vote share in Senate elections, which Fox News did not cover, suggesting that the Fox News impact extends to general political beliefs. Finally, we find evidence that Fox News increased turnout to the polls

The second study, published in 2017, looked into the relative effects of cable news channels, MSNBC, CNN, and Fox. It also builds off of the earlier study and shows the effect that Fox has on elections is very strong.

Our estimates imply increasing effects of FNC on the Republican vote share in presidential elections over time, from 0.46 points in 2000 to 6.34 points in 2008. Furthermore, we estimate that cable news can increase polarization and explain about two-thirds of the increase among the public in the US, and that this increase depends on both a persuasive effect of cable news and the existence of tastes for like-minded news. Finally, we find that an influence-maximizing owner of the cable news channels could have large effects on vote shares, but would have to sacrifice some levels of viewership to maximize influence.

Elsewhere in the study, they showed that MSNBC, though every bit as biased as FNC, did not have the same effect on its viewers as did FNC. In fact, FNC was a stronger influence to get moderates and Democrats to vote for Republicans but MSNBC had none of that kind of effect on Republicans.

Given the results from these studies -- that FNC is a force in determining elections for Republicans in a way that left side biased channels do not -- the graphic shown below is a bit ominous to me. I don't really want to live in a right wing society that is hooked on fake news in order to justify its actions:

1606598069106.png
Fox News knows what it's doing. Republican and wealthy people know it too. Even when its ideology was just slightly to the right, they helped Republican swing the 2000 elections. Over time, they have gone harder and harder to the left with concurrent effect on the political choices their viewers made. And then we had Trump.

So, I don't know how effective "reaching out" to the the radical right is going to be. Their propaganda machine is able to broadcast fake news 24/7 and get their viewership to buy into their BS without any evidence to back up their claims. Perhaps the problem is not that Democrats aren't being nice enough.
 
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SpideyManDan

SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Two studies on the effects of media on how people voted. One from 2007 and one more recently.

I'm not going to copy and paste much from them.

The second study was reviewed on Vox and their summary is easier to digest:

www.vox.com

A stunning new study shows that Fox News is more powerful than we ever imagined

It could even be flipping elections.
www.vox.com www.vox.com

the first study, published in 2007 and looked into changes in voting patterns between 1996 and 2000 in communities after Fox began to broadcast in them. Fox came online earlier in some areas than in others and the study compared shifts in voter sentiment based when Fox began to pump their brand of "news" into them. Their conclusion:

We find a significant effect of exposure to Fox News on voting. Towns with Fox News have a 0.4 to 0.7 percentage point higher Republican vote share in the 2000 presidential elections, compared to the 1996 elections. A vote shift of this magnitude is likely to have been decisive in the 2000 elections. We also find an effect on vote share in Senate elections, which Fox News did not cover, suggesting that the Fox News impact extends to general political beliefs. Finally, we find evidence that Fox News increased turnout to the polls

The second study, published in 2017, looked into the relative effects of cable news channels, MSNBC, CNN, and Fox. It also builds off of the earlier study and shows the effect that Fox has on elections is very strong.

Our estimates imply increasing effects of FNC on the Republican vote share in presidential elections over time, from 0.46 points in 2000 to 6.34 points in 2008. Furthermore, we estimate that cable news can increase polarization and explain about two-thirds of the increase among the public in the US, and that this increase depends on both a persuasive effect of cable news and the existence of tastes for like-minded news. Finally, we find that an influence-maximizing owner of the cable news channels could have large effects on vote shares, but would have to sacrifice some levels of viewership to maximize influence.

Elsewhere in the study, they showed that MSNBC, though every bit as biased as FNC, did not have the same effect on its viewers as did FNC. In fact, FNC was a stronger influence to get moderates and Democrats to vote for Republicans but MSNBC had none of that kind of effect on Republicans.

Given the results from these studies -- that FNC is a force in determining elections for Republicans in a way that left side biased channels do not -- the graphic shown below is a bit ominous to me. I don't really want to live in a right wing society that is hooked on fake news in order to justify its actions:

View attachment 4754571
Fox New knows what it's doing. Republican and wealthy people know it too. Even when its ideology was just slightly to the right, they helped Republican swing the 2000 elections. Over time, they have gone harder and harder to the left with concurrent effect on the political choices their viewers made. And then we had Trump.

So, I don't know how effective "reaching out" to the the radical right is going to be. Their propaganda machine is able to broadcast fake news 24/7 and get their viewership to buy into their BS without any evidence to back up their claims. Perhaps the problem is not that Democrats aren't being nice enough.
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Very interesting. Good find. Im really interested in why this is, what is the difference between the 3 channels that would have this affect? Maybe it has something to do with the vitriol and lies that they propagate on Fox.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
SpideyManDan said:
Very interesting. Good find. Im really interested in why this is, what is the difference between the 3 channels that would have this affect? Maybe it has something to do with the vitriol and lies that they propagate on Fox.
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There is plenty of psychology going on here too. During the scandal that Facebook caused when it gave Cambridge Analytica free access to it's user-database, quotes from Cambridge-Analytica seemed to suggest they could use that data along with their proprietary psychological-targeting software to get voters to do whatever they wanted.

As Nix of Cambridge analytica said: "We did all the research, all the data, all the analytics, all the targeting, we ran all the digital campaign, the television campaign and our data informed all the strategy."

 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
There is plenty of psychology going on here too. During the scandal that Facebook caused when it gave Cambridge Analytica free access to it's user-database, quotes from Cambridge-Analytica seemed to suggest they could use that data along with their proprietary psychological-targeting software to get voters to do whatever they wanted.

As Nix of Cambridge analytica said: "We did all the research, all the data, all the analytics, all the targeting, we ran all the digital campaign, the television campaign and our data informed all the strategy."

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There is a reason some advanced countries ban advertising targeted at children and the EU is coming down on info privacy. Governments knew the power of media right from the beginning and tightly regulated broadcast media. The arts of mass psychology have acquired powerful new tools, we in Canada and the EU regulate broadcast media more and thus have less of an issue with it. However the internet, Facebook and YouTube have disrupted the technological and communications landscape, this is primarily an American issue to solve right now. You need the senate and a commission on the whole thing, an expert panel, then you need to work with your allies and we can come up with some kind of unified coherent policy to combat bullshit, plain and simple. The people have a basic right to the truth, how else can they make more perfect unions or pursue happiness?
 
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S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
True that. 'Every click you make'


You could have chosen to not click and that would have slowed the formation of the information bubbles people find themselves in.
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i don't 'click.' it's an offensive word that you intimate. not everyone is a moron.
 
injinji

injinji

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
There is a reason some advanced countries ban advertising targeted at children and the EU is coming down on info privacy. Governments knew the power of media right from the beginning and tightly regulated broadcast media. The arts of mass psychology have acquired powerful new tools, we in Canada and the EU regulate broadcast media more and thus have less of an issue with it. However the internet, Facebook and YouTube have disrupted the technological and communications landscape, this is primarily an American issue to solve right now. You need the senate and a commission on the whole thing, an expert panel, then you need to work with your allies and we can come up with some kind of unified coherent policy to combat bullshit, plain and simple. The people have a basic right to the truth, how else can they make more perfect unions or pursue happiness?
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The printing press did the same thing. The religious wars in Europe were stoked by pamphlets. Any time a new communications system comes on line, folks will use to sow hate and division. It's just human nature.
 
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