Best led for 2x4

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Hey I have been thinking about buying the sp3000. I know the pro's with it but do you have any con's about it?
I bought an SP 3000 in 2021 but wouldn't buy the current version unless you can't swing the $$ for a better light. If that's the case, I'd argue that, if possible, wait until you can save the extra $$ for a better light.

The SP 3000 of 2021 had a very different PPFD map than the current version. The older model wasn't as powerful but it had a more even light cast. The advantage of an even PPFD map is that it makes it easier to light your grow.

The PPFD for the current model of the SP 3000 is here. The PPFD values in the center 2' are very high, call it 1400µmol. While it's good to have 1400µmol, the problem with the SP 3000 is that, once you leave a very small area at 1400µmol, the PPFD level drops off very quickly and is extremely unbalanced. Look at the PPFD values on the right side of the map - the highest value reported is 511µmol and from there is drops into the 400's. The lowest light level recommended for cannabis in flower is 600µmol*. The entire right side of the SP 3000 doesn't generate even that very modest level of light.

Note too that with the exception of 1' at the center left of the PPFD map, light levels do not reach the 600 threshold.

The bottom line, for me, is that the new SP 3000 has a hot spot very similar to the hot spot found in many HLG lights. I understand that a lot of growers love HLG lights and get good results but that doesn't change the simple fact that lights with a hot spot in the center make it more difficult to get even light on your canopy.

If you use a light light this, one tradeoff are that the only place you can get good levels of light will be in the center and we know that because Mars is showing us that in the PPFD map. In terms of how to set up your grow, you can either grow one plant in the center and get it to 1000µmol, assuming that's your target. Per the Mars PPFD map, you'll be running your light at about 70% power. If you do that, the PPFD values for the entire grow will be about 70% of what's shown on the PPFD map. As such, the areas that are 500±µmol will be in the 350-400µmol region. Those light levels less than ½ of the light levels needed for maximum yield.

One of the reasons for this light pattern is that it allows a company to produce a less expensive product and that takes us back to my opening paragraph - it all you've got is $270, then you're going to get a $270 light. The downside to that is that you're going to have to take into account the fact that the lightcast is uneven. You'll get a crop, no question about that, but a light with that level of light output is far below that of other grow lights for a 2' x 4' space.

For reference, I've attached the PPFD maps of grow lights that I considered after I purchased my SP 3000. When I started growing in 2021, I "unarchived" my grow tent from 2018. I had done one grow in 2018 and then buttoned it up. When I started growing again, I got the PPFD map for the blurple (a Kind 600XL). When I saw the light levels, I put it in the trash and looked for another light. I was in a bit of a time bind and, after a quick look around, I went with the SP 3000.

After starting to learn about grow lighting, I settled on the Growcraft X3 330. The PPFD map for the Growcraft X3, the X2, the SP 3000, and a Migro array are shown below (the X2 is in the top left, the SP 3000 is in the top right, the Migro is lower right):

PPFD Maps - Chilled X3, X2, Mars SP3000 & Migro Array.png


If you look at the PPFD map for the SP 3000 from 2021, you'll note that the maximum values are lower but the PPFD map is more even. The advantage of that is that I can run the Mars at 100% power and get good light in the center but I'm still well over 600µmol for the entire grow. In contrast, look at the PPFD map for the current model and, if I turn the dimmer down low enough to get the center values down to 1000µmol, I'm DAWA ("dark as a whale's ass") on a very high percentage of my canopy.

So what gives with the new SP 3000? Products are designed to be sold at price points. The SP 3000 was $300 in 2021 but $300 in 2021 is…$360-$370 today. Yes, some components are cheaper but many things that go into designing, manufacturing, selling, and supporting a product are much higher. The new Mars is only $260 ($215 on sale). Something's gotta give. What we're seeing here is a markedly different PPFD map than the preceding model (and I would argue that it's inferior) but it's at a very low price point. There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.

If you look at the PPFD map for the Migro array, you'll see that it's a very even light cast. I don't know if that model is available today but just comparing the current model SP 3000 vs the Migro, the latter has a superior light cast.

While I liked the Migro PPFD map, I didn't like their spectrum and I bought a Growcraft X2 veg light and their X3 flower light. I've had some excellent results with that setup but the flower light is getting long in the tooth. I will not do business with Growcraft again, for reasons outside of this discussion, and, with my Fall grow coming up, my current favorite is the Spider SE4500. That light is $450± and they offer the G4500 which is priced at $400. Both models are 430 watts and generate very high PPFD levels with very good uniformity. The $400 price point is higher than the $260 price of the SP 3000. The Spider lights are more expensive but the result of using the Spider vs the Mars is that, all other factors being equal, every crop that you grow will be significantly larger with the Spider than it would be if you were using the Mars.


*That's the value recommended by de Bacco - I have no idea where he got that but, overall, I find him a credible source of information for cannabis growers. My recommendation is at least 800µmol and I light my grows with at least 1000µmol and preferably 1100±.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I’m thinking for going for the spiderfarmer, I’ve been hearing that the already is super nice and even. How is the light for depth penetration if anyone has experience with it?
I would buy the Spider 4500, either flavor, over anything else in the 2' x 4' market but that's because of how I grow cannabis. My goal I growing a crop is to maximize yield and the driver of plant growth is the amount of light falling on the canopy. Plants require glucose for energy (pretty much the same way humans do) and glucose is created when photons + water + carbon dioxide are used in photosynthesis. The relationship between light and crop yield has been around for decades and over the past few years research has demonstrated that yield will be 0.2 to 0.3 gm/mol.

(Mitch Westmoreland, PhD candidate studying under Dr. Bruce Bugbee, shared that information in at least two YT videos. I strongly urge every grower to watch the two vids. I've spent hundreds of hours researching various topics about cannabis lighting, and much of that info is distilled into what Westmoreland shares in his videos.)

The reason why I'm so keen on the Spider 4500 is that is generates a staggering amount of light 2' x 4' space, it has an extremely uniform light cast, and it's cheap.

When I started growing in 2021, I threw out my Kind 600XL that I used for my grow in 2018 and bought a Mars SP 3000. It was a good product back then but, as I started learning about grow lighting, I wanted something that generated more light and I decided to add a Growcraft X3 330 watt flower light. I used the Mars for germination and in veg and then switched to a flower light to take advantage of the red-heavy spectrum and to avoid what I refer to as the "blue photon penalty" of white LED's*.

In the ensuing three years, more research has come out (Westmoreland in 2022±, Bugbee in 2024, and Westmoreland opening the floodgates, per above, earlier this year) where the relationship between light levels and crop yield is clearly demonstrated. One topic that Westmoreland discusses in his 2024 video is something that he mentioned in a 2022 video on growing hemp (search for the video using "Westmoreland" and "hemp" and you should be able to find the video). It's considered a "given" that more light> yield and "crop quality" (the ration of flower to above ground mass) but many growers, here and on other cannabis sites, won't turn up the dial because of the impression that doing so reduces the number of secondary metabolites.

I ascribed to that position for a couple of years even though I saw the Westmoreland 2022 video. The crux of that video was that secondary metabolites were dramatically reduced when flower temperature exceeded 78°. I read that and pretty much blew it off because of his and his bosses' "high light is the way to go" mantra and also because I allowed my ignorance to convince me that it was OK because Westmoreland was researching hemp (cannabis <3% THC) vs regular cannabis.

That was wrong.

Per Westmoreland's 2024 video, in which he discussed four of the topics that are part of his PhD dissertation, he lays it out for the world to see. Secondary metabolites start to degrade rapidly as flower temp exceeds 78°F. Earlier this year, Bugbee threw out a teaser line when Shane @ Migro interviewed his (check YT for that video). He didn't go into detail because, I suspect, he didn't want to steal the limelight of one of his students. Now that the word is out and is backed by data, it seems a good idea to do what the pointy-head guys recommend.

And so?

The Spider is…the cat's meow as far as I'm concerned. In a 2' x 4' tent, it's the light to buy and, in a similar manner, if you're in a 4' x 4' space, the Migro "CO2" light looks excellent.

Why the Spider?

It's a 430 watt light that generates a huge amount of light and it spreads it very evenly across the canopy. It's very reasonably priced for what you get and, since more light=greater yield, with the usual caveats, the ROI is very quick.

I spent $650 on my Growcraft X3 lights and the flower light will be retired. In place, I'll be getting the SE or G4500. The charts below show the light falloff for the Growcraft vs the Spider.

What these charts illustrate is the % drop in PPFD with 12" and 10" hang heights. The man PPFD for the Growcraft is 1308µmol, as indicated in the green square in the center. In contrast, the SE4500 is generating 1400±µmol in the center.

The drop-off for the Growcraft is immediate and significant. The drop-off in the SE 4500 is insignificant (0-1%) over 50% of the area, is 6-7% for 15% of the canopy, and rolls off 17-18%only at the ends of the canopy.

The data are from the manufacturers web sites for their respective products.

1719179730551.png

1719179719317.png


1719180050623.png

1719180040596.png

All in all, the Spider products are a tour de force.

A logical question is "Who cares about 1300µmol? Cannabis can't handle that much light unless you add CO2!" That's correct. The typical value for the light saturation point of cannabis is 800-1000µmol. I've seen grows that max out at 500, on one extreme that was caused by hydrophobic soil due to poor watering practices. On the other hand, I routinely run my grows at 1000µmol and my last grows, photos, were at >1100µmol (I use an Apogee and measure light daily for most of the grow). Cannabis is a light whore loves light.

But 1150≠1308 so why have light that goes to 1300?

As I see it, it's "all about the temperature".

For my Spring grow this year, I hit some warm days and I switched from the driver in the tent to the driver outside the tent. Two drivers - yup because I have two 330 watt lights, per above. I thought that using a driver outside the tent would drop my tent temp.

Nope.

What was driving up the temperature at the canopy was the heat generated by the grow light. The driver was 2' above the canopy and, since heat rises and since I had a fan pulling in ambient air, the hot air was going out of the tent. It was the light itself was heating the tent. I ran the light at 300 watts and then turned it down to 280 and it was still pretty warm even though the light was no more than 105° and was 100±* in most places. Even those moderate temps were enough to heat things up over the course of a day.

Bottom line — the biggest reason why the canopy was warm was the light, not the driver.

So that means I can get canopy temperature down if I raise the light, right?

But, looking at the PPFD chart below, if I raise the light, my canopy PPFD goes to hell pretty quickly. And that's where the SE/G4500 will rock the house.

With that light, I can raise the hang height to 18" or 20" and still get "lotsa light" and, by moving the light away from the canopy I can drop the canopy temperature.

How will it work out? Dunno. I won't be doing a grow until September/October, after the summer heat has passed, and, assuming that no other manufacturer comes out with a 2' x 4' light that offers better bang for the buck, my plan is to put the X3 flower light out to pasture and replace it with a SE/G4500.

Long answer to a short question, I realize but I hope it's helpful. I think the SE/G4500 will be a great light for a grower who can take advantage of its tremendous, level output. A grow has to be in good shape to run at >1000µmol but even at 800 to 900, cannabis is very rewarding. The great thing about this light is that you can raise the light well above the canopy and still get prodigious amounts of light while keeping you canopy temp down. That's the recipe for lots of very high quality herbal refreshment.

*Topic for another discussion.
 

compassionateExotic

Well-Known Member

2x4 needs = many options but my 2cents I suggest this bad boy . Under 200 bucks and 260 watts, for 2x4 that looks like a perfect match.
25% off code on checkout:
BOXLAPSE
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member

2x4 needs = many options but my 2cents I suggest this bad boy . Under 200 bucks and 260 watts, for 2x4 that looks like a perfect match.
25% off code on checkout:
BOXLAPSE
Its a good deal for hlg and nice spread but plain white, no supplements seems a bit simplistic.
 

Hbrew4u

Member
I bought an SP 3000 in 2021 but wouldn't buy the current version unless you can't swing the $$ for a better light. If that's the case, I'd argue that, if possible, wait until you can save the extra $$ for a better light.

The SP 3000 of 2021 had a very different PPFD map than the current version. The older model wasn't as powerful but it had a more even light cast. The advantage of an even PPFD map is that it makes it easier to light your grow.

The PPFD for the current model of the SP 3000 is here. The PPFD values in the center 2' are very high, call it 1400µmol. While it's good to have 1400µmol, the problem with the SP 3000 is that, once you leave a very small area at 1400µmol, the PPFD level drops off very quickly and is extremely unbalanced. Look at the PPFD values on the right side of the map - the highest value reported is 511µmol and from there is drops into the 400's. The lowest light level recommended for cannabis in flower is 600µmol*. The entire right side of the SP 3000 doesn't generate even that very modest level of light.

Note too that with the exception of 1' at the center left of the PPFD map, light levels do not reach the 600 threshold.

The bottom line, for me, is that the new SP 3000 has a hot spot very similar to the hot spot found in many HLG lights. I understand that a lot of growers love HLG lights and get good results but that doesn't change the simple fact that lights with a hot spot in the center make it more difficult to get even light on your canopy.

If you use a light light this, one tradeoff are that the only place you can get good levels of light will be in the center and we know that because Mars is showing us that in the PPFD map. In terms of how to set up your grow, you can either grow one plant in the center and get it to 1000µmol, assuming that's your target. Per the Mars PPFD map, you'll be running your light at about 70% power. If you do that, the PPFD values for the entire grow will be about 70% of what's shown on the PPFD map. As such, the areas that are 500±µmol will be in the 350-400µmol region. Those light levels less than ½ of the light levels needed for maximum yield.

One of the reasons for this light pattern is that it allows a company to produce a less expensive product and that takes us back to my opening paragraph - it all you've got is $270, then you're going to get a $270 light. The downside to that is that you're going to have to take into account the fact that the lightcast is uneven. You'll get a crop, no question about that, but a light with that level of light output is far below that of other grow lights for a 2' x 4' space.

For reference, I've attached the PPFD maps of grow lights that I considered after I purchased my SP 3000. When I started growing in 2021, I "unarchived" my grow tent from 2018. I had done one grow in 2018 and then buttoned it up. When I started growing again, I got the PPFD map for the blurple (a Kind 600XL). When I saw the light levels, I put it in the trash and looked for another light. I was in a bit of a time bind and, after a quick look around, I went with the SP 3000.

After starting to learn about grow lighting, I settled on the Growcraft X3 330. The PPFD map for the Growcraft X3, the X2, the SP 3000, and a Migro array are shown below (the X2 is in the top left, the SP 3000 is in the top right, the Migro is lower right):

View attachment 5402295


If you look at the PPFD map for the SP 3000 from 2021, you'll note that the maximum values are lower but the PPFD map is more even. The advantage of that is that I can run the Mars at 100% power and get good light in the center but I'm still well over 600µmol for the entire grow. In contrast, look at the PPFD map for the current model and, if I turn the dimmer down low enough to get the center values down to 1000µmol, I'm DAWA ("dark as a whale's ass") on a very high percentage of my canopy.

So what gives with the new SP 3000? Products are designed to be sold at price points. The SP 3000 was $300 in 2021 but $300 in 2021 is…$360-$370 today. Yes, some components are cheaper but many things that go into designing, manufacturing, selling, and supporting a product are much higher. The new Mars is only $260 ($215 on sale). Something's gotta give. What we're seeing here is a markedly different PPFD map than the preceding model (and I would argue that it's inferior) but it's at a very low price point. There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.

If you look at the PPFD map for the Migro array, you'll see that it's a very even light cast. I don't know if that model is available today but just comparing the current model SP 3000 vs the Migro, the latter has a superior light cast.

While I liked the Migro PPFD map, I didn't like their spectrum and I bought a Growcraft X2 veg light and their X3 flower light. I've had some excellent results with that setup but the flower light is getting long in the tooth. I will not do business with Growcraft again, for reasons outside of this discussion, and, with my Fall grow coming up, my current favorite is the Spider SE4500. That light is $450± and they offer the G4500 which is priced at $400. Both models are 430 watts and generate very high PPFD levels with very good uniformity. The $400 price point is higher than the $260 price of the SP 3000. The Spider lights are more expensive but the result of using the Spider vs the Mars is that, all other factors being equal, every crop that you grow will be significantly larger with the Spider than it would be if you were using the Mars.


*That's the value recommended by de Bacco - I have no idea where he got that but, overall, I find him a credible source of information for cannabis growers. My recommendation is at least 800µmol and I light my grows with at least 1000µmol and preferably 1100±.
Thanks for the info. I know that took some time to put together and type in. Many thanks...
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Its a good deal for hlg and nice spread but plain white, no supplements seems a bit simplistic.
I suspect that's because of the price point they're trying to hit.

Also, the impacts that I can think of are far red are increased photons (more mols) and the Emerson effect. Those a marginal gains might appeal to a higher end buyer but, for someone who just wants a decent white LED with the HLG backing, it looks to be a very competitive product.
 

compassionateExotic

Well-Known Member
It pretty much have everything one could ask for a low hanging 4x2 light. Nice spread, plenty of watts, double bluepeak, strong red spike and a bit of far red.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
What about this gml light? It's available in uk nxt month anygood? Tarantula 320View attachment 5402416
Good specs but not quite up to the output of the Spider 4500 models. No surprise since they use a 430 watt driver vs the 320 in the Tarantula.

I suspect the driver is detachable but I didn't see that in their blurb. I'm assuming that to be. the case since they sell an extension for the driver cord. It used push locks. That's a good sign since that makes it very quick to swap to a different driver.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Good specs but not quite up to the output of the Spider 4500 models. No surprise since they use a 430 watt driver vs the 320 in the Tarantula.

I suspect the driver is detachable but I didn't see that in their blurb. I'm assuming that to be. the case since they sell an extension for the driver cord. It used push locks. That's a good sign since that makes it very quick to swap to a different driver.
 
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