are air stones even necessary?

Enigma

Well-Known Member
Turbulence prevents root rot and not overferting.

Do explain how this works.


My low pressure aero hits high 80s in the summer and never gets root rot. I dont have any airstones. All I have is a pump that sprays the roots with water.

Your roots should be fine in aeroponics without an airstone, having the pump on a cycle allows the roots to breathe oxygen between cycles. Alternatively, you could use a NFT system as well to allow the roots to breathe oxygen, again, without the use of an air stone.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Chilling is the correct method. Not only does the lower temperature prevent certain organisms from thriving in your nutrient mixture, it raises the level of dissolved oxygen the water can hold.

Couple that with an air pump pumping warm air into cold water with a micron air stone and you are in business.
I agree with the first part but vigorously disagree with the second; reefers use waterfalls to keep their fish happy. Fish have a higher requirement for dissolved oxygen than plants.

This is why I tried waterfalls in my RDWC, and lo and behold, it worked!

Airpumps are hot, noisy, suck power and are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. By contrast, I just use the same circulation pump everyone else has in their RDWC.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Do explain how this works.





Your roots should be fine in aeroponics without an airstone, having the pump on a cycle allows the roots to breathe oxygen between cycles. Alternatively, you could use a NFT system as well to allow the roots to breathe oxygen, again, without the use of an air stone.
You're already 2/3 of the way to the same conclusion I came to years ago; that airstones aren't needed or desirable in hydroponics, period.

@firsttimeARE is pointing out that active water circulation benefits roots by moving water actively through them, eliminating the potential for nutrient or oxygen depletion.
 

ANC

Well-Known Member
You want the finest mist you can manage. A very thin layer of water can easily be oxygenated by surrounding air.
It also keeps aerobic bacteria in the water alive, they are a lot less nasty and smelly than their anaerobic cousins.
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
I agree with the first part but vigorously disagree with the second; reefers use waterfalls to keep their fish happy. Fish have a higher requirement for dissolved oxygen than plants.

This is why I tried waterfalls in my RDWC, and lo and behold, it worked!

Airpumps are hot, noisy, suck power and are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. By contrast, I just use the same circulation pump everyone else has in their RDWC.

I guess this is me holding onto old methods because they worked, my RDWC has a waterfall for the return, I still feel like air stones in the flower bucket would benefit more than the waterfall alone.

As we've discussed, my final will be an aeroponic drip system. No air stones, no air pump, just a wet and dry cycle with a water pump.
 

glani

Member
@firsttimeARE is pointing out that active water circulation benefits roots by moving water actively through them, eliminating the potential for nutrient or oxygen depletion.[/QUOTE]

In reference to moving water around, my research has brought me to a few videos on UC where they claim its way easier to just top off your external rez, but that would leave your air stones as the only thing agitating the water. From some of these and other comments, im getting the impression diffusers dont move the water enough and water pumps are necessary...?
 

firsttimeARE

Well-Known Member
^^ No. What you should take from this post is there are more than one way of oxygenating water. Water pumps is what some people find helpful. Albeit its a good advice if you need the water pump to circulate water back to the buckets.

I use stones in single bucket dwc as im not going to have a pump in each bucket as it will be A) Costly B) Heat up that 3gal quickly and C) plants need little O2 and all these methods work.

In RDWC I use a waterfall, but im dealing with 17gal per plant of buffer vs 6gal is my biggest single bucket dwc I use. In RDWC im not affected by cost, cause I need the pump anyways, im not affected by heat as I use a chiller and 17gal buffer per plant as noted above and lastly it solves the O2 issue.

Id use air pumps in a standing reservoir in a DTW system, unless they make venturi pumps that have a brain that can normally operate venturi, but occasionally pump? This serious question as I dont know and in the market for something like this for my DTW table.
 
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glani

Member
So if I'm using undercurrent to move water between buckets and rez without water pumps, the air stones will agitate the water around the roots enough to control the 'nutrient and oxygen depletion' problem? Sry if I'm being repetitive, I'm just tryin to figure out if what i read about ucdwc without a waterpump is viable. 6 buckets on UC will be drinking water fast and ill be topping off daily.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
So if I'm using undercurrent to move water between buckets and rez without water pumps, the air stones will agitate the water around the roots enough to control the 'nutrient and oxygen depletion' problem? Sry if I'm being repetitive, I'm just tryin to figure out if what i read about ucdwc without a waterpump is viable. 6 buckets on UC will be drinking water fast and ill be topping off daily.
I solved this problem by increasing the size of my tubsites. Each one is a 27 gallon tuffbox which, thanks to a collar that raises the netpot bucket lid I grow the plant in, I can fill about 3/4 full. This means that each plant effectively gets a 20 gallon reservoir right at its feet, times however many plants the system needs to service.

The waterfall fitting is in the lid so it's always above the waterline. Bulkhead fittings serve lines leading back to the circulation pump in the control bucket. These are mounted low on the sides and more or less at the corners so the plant can't clog all the outlets and cause a flood.

This is how I'm able to support the growth of plants that reach 6' tall and produce as much as 2lb of finished product apiece. Such plants can easily drink 2 gallons of nutrient solution a day, yet I only need to refill the system on 7 to 14 day intervals depending on their size, metabolism and environmental conditions.
 

J Henry

Active Member
Aeration or oxygenation – many claim the point of water chillers, water falls, air bubblers, big bubbles, tiny bubbles, H2O2 is to increase dissolved oxygen in res water, more oxygen is better than less oxygen. At least that’s the story I see repeated over and over again.

All I see here is misinformation, myth, old wives tales, confusion and chaos, forum gurus and dudes promoting oxygenation and calling air – oxygen, refer to ambient air as oxygen and visa-versa.

It is crystal clear to me that ambient air and elemental O2 is definitely confusing for the average Jack because Jack cannot smell, taste, feel or see the difference between air and O2, therefore no one can question the difference between plain ole ambient air and elemental oxygen, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen… how many of you ever actually tested the DO in res water?

Did I hear you say that no one ever test DO in res water because a DO meter cost too much, is not necessary and guessing is cheaper?

Did you know that aerobes (DWC cannabis roots and beneficial microbes) in res water can have plenty air and suffocate from lack of elemental in the blink of an eye, in minutes in low DO environments? And, that dead decaying roots are the precursor inviting fungal outbreaks and disease? Now who in the world here would ever think that sick dying and decaying roots come 1st before the fungal outbreaks and mass colonization happens. And that a common cause of root death and rot is suffocation or lack of elemental oxygen (DO) and not lack of ambient air or low elemental Nitrogen - Dissolved N2 (DN2).

Hey dudes, I Googled ambient air, had a Eureka moment and discovered that ambient air is a mixture of different gases at sea level consist of elemental Nitrogen gas, 78% N2, air is whopping 4/5ths Nitrogen, 590 mm/hg partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg atmospheric pressure and change.

I also found that ambient air at sea level does have little dab of elemental oxygen, 21% O2, air is only 1/5th O2… that’s only 159 mm/hg O2 partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg total barometric gas pressure.
Isn't that something!

Most people really believe that when they are depending on ambient air to insure minimal "safe" continuous oxygenation for roots and microbes in a DWC/RDWC… if they add more bubblers, say increase from 1 bubbler to 2-3 bubblers, buy a bigger air pump and that pumps 2 X more air than 1 little air pump, use a higher water fall and so on that the low O2 matter will be fixes because they will 2 times as much oxygen out of the air, 42% O2 or more than 318 mm/hg O2 partial pressure.

Twice the volume of air = 2 times as much O2… low o2 problem solved and plenty O2 is guaranteed – a simple no brainer solution to prevent low oxygen problems and root rot.

Hypothermia, water chillers. Do you know that aerated fresh water @ 65F res fresh water saturates DO at 100%. Aerated fresh water @ 80F saturated DO @ 100?

The tiny difference in aerated water DO concentration @ saturation between 65F water and 80F fresh water is only 1.1 PPM DO concentration.

That means for the cost of a water chiller, electricity, noise and chiller maintenance, the DO Chart says that you can possibly increase the DO with no roots or microbes in the water consuming elemental O2 by only ---- 1.1 / 1,000,000.

Now is that impressive or what?
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
Aeration or oxygenation – many claim the point of water chillers, water falls, air bubblers, big bubbles, tiny bubbles, H2O2 is to increase dissolved oxygen in res water, more oxygen is better than less oxygen. At least that’s the story I see repeated over and over again.

All I see here is misinformation, myth, old wives tales, confusion and chaos, forum gurus and dudes promoting oxygenation and calling air – oxygen, refer to ambient air as oxygen and visa-versa.

It is crystal clear to me that ambient air and elemental O2 is definitely confusing for the average Jack because Jack cannot smell, taste, feel or see the difference between air and O2, therefore no one can question the difference between plain ole ambient air and elemental oxygen, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen… how many of you ever actually tested the DO in res water?

Did I hear you say that no one ever test DO in res water because a DO meter cost too much, is not necessary and guessing is cheaper?

Did you know that aerobes (DWC cannabis roots and beneficial microbes) in res water can have plenty air and suffocate from lack of elemental in the blink of an eye, in minutes in low DO environments? And, that dead decaying roots are the precursor inviting fungal outbreaks and disease? Now who in the world here would ever think that sick dying and decaying roots come 1st before the fungal outbreaks and mass colonization happens. And that a common cause of root death and rot is suffocation or lack of elemental oxygen (DO) and not lack of ambient air or low elemental Nitrogen - Dissolved N2 (DN2).

Hey dudes, I Googled ambient air, had a Eureka moment and discovered that ambient air is a mixture of different gases at sea level consist of elemental Nitrogen gas, 78% N2, air is whopping 4/5ths Nitrogen, 590 mm/hg partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg atmospheric pressure and change.

I also found that ambient air at sea level does have little dab of elemental oxygen, 21% O2, air is only 1/5th O2… that’s only 159 mm/hg O2 partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg total barometric gas pressure.
Isn't that something!

Most people really believe that when they are depending on ambient air to insure minimal "safe" continuous oxygenation for roots and microbes in a DWC/RDWC… if they add more bubblers, say increase from 1 bubbler to 2-3 bubblers, buy a bigger air pump and that pumps 2 X more air than 1 little air pump, use a higher water fall and so on that the low O2 matter will be fixes because they will 2 times as much oxygen out of the air, 42% O2 or more than 318 mm/hg O2 partial pressure.

Twice the volume of air = 2 times as much O2… low o2 problem solved and plenty O2 is guaranteed – a simple no brainer solution to prevent low oxygen problems and root rot.

Hypothermia, water chillers. Do you know that aerated fresh water @ 65F res fresh water saturates DO at 100%. Aerated fresh water @ 80F saturated DO @ 100?

The tiny difference in aerated water DO concentration @ saturation between 65F water and 80F fresh water is only 1.1 PPM DO concentration.

That means for the cost of a water chiller, electricity, noise and chiller maintenance, the DO Chart says that you can possibly increase the DO with no roots or microbes in the water consuming elemental O2 by only ---- 1.1 / 1,000,000.

Now is that impressive or what?

What about microbial growth in water above 70° F?

The chiller brings temps down to control unwanted growth, thereby limiting the amount of toxins in the reservoir, i.e. root rot.

We all know roots need oxygen, if not it is only a Google away, which is why aeroponics is always talked about being the best of all hydroponics because of the wet/dry cycle or constant aeration of the root mass.

People have dosed their reservoirs with H2O2 and various forms of chlorine to achieve the same results. These methods work well, although it makes the system more "hands-on".

It seems the 1.1 ppm that you calculated has a huge impact on root health and yield.
 

Jypsy Dog

Well-Known Member
Aeration or oxygenation – many claim the point of water chillers, water falls, air bubblers, big bubbles, tiny bubbles, H2O2 is to increase dissolved oxygen in res water, more oxygen is better than less oxygen. At least that’s the story I see repeated over and over again.

All I see here is misinformation, myth, old wives tales, confusion and chaos, forum gurus and dudes promoting oxygenation and calling air – oxygen, refer to ambient air as oxygen and visa-versa.

It is crystal clear to me that ambient air and elemental O2 is definitely confusing for the average Jack because Jack cannot smell, taste, feel or see the difference between air and O2, therefore no one can question the difference between plain ole ambient air and elemental oxygen, nitrogen, helium or hydrogen… how many of you ever actually tested the DO in res water?

Did I hear you say that no one ever test DO in res water because a DO meter cost too much, is not necessary and guessing is cheaper?

Did you know that aerobes (DWC cannabis roots and beneficial microbes) in res water can have plenty air and suffocate from lack of elemental in the blink of an eye, in minutes in low DO environments? And, that dead decaying roots are the precursor inviting fungal outbreaks and disease? Now who in the world here would ever think that sick dying and decaying roots come 1st before the fungal outbreaks and mass colonization happens. And that a common cause of root death and rot is suffocation or lack of elemental oxygen (DO) and not lack of ambient air or low elemental Nitrogen - Dissolved N2 (DN2).

Hey dudes, I Googled ambient air, had a Eureka moment and discovered that ambient air is a mixture of different gases at sea level consist of elemental Nitrogen gas, 78% N2, air is whopping 4/5ths Nitrogen, 590 mm/hg partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg atmospheric pressure and change.

I also found that ambient air at sea level does have little dab of elemental oxygen, 21% O2, air is only 1/5th O2… that’s only 159 mm/hg O2 partial pressure out of 760 mm/hg total barometric gas pressure.
Isn't that something!

Most people really believe that when they are depending on ambient air to insure minimal "safe" continuous oxygenation for roots and microbes in a DWC/RDWC… if they add more bubblers, say increase from 1 bubbler to 2-3 bubblers, buy a bigger air pump and that pumps 2 X more air than 1 little air pump, use a higher water fall and so on that the low O2 matter will be fixes because they will 2 times as much oxygen out of the air, 42% O2 or more than 318 mm/hg O2 partial pressure.

Twice the volume of air = 2 times as much O2… low o2 problem solved and plenty O2 is guaranteed – a simple no brainer solution to prevent low oxygen problems and root rot.

Hypothermia, water chillers. Do you know that aerated fresh water @ 65F res fresh water saturates DO at 100%. Aerated fresh water @ 80F saturated DO @ 100?

The tiny difference in aerated water DO concentration @ saturation between 65F water and 80F fresh water is only 1.1 PPM DO concentration.

That means for the cost of a water chiller, electricity, noise and chiller maintenance, the DO Chart says that you can possibly increase the DO with no roots or microbes in the water consuming elemental O2 by only ---- 1.1 / 1,000,000.

Now is that impressive or what?
Do you even grow??
 
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