Apache AT600 led vs 1000w HPS Blue Dream Grow

love the way this one went...good growing GG

as for the g/w thing,it's not hard to reach that 1g/w with hps(hood) or vert...and it's not really that much bulb replacing going on(unless you feel the need to do so)
i think i get a new bulb(horti) every 15 months..now a cheaper bulb may need to be replaced sooner.
truth is,if i was in them high energy cost states,i for sure grab a at600 or 2.
now them at200(for the veg room)...hell yes..i'm already getting rid of the mh's in there for the 315 lec.

back to the GG show..

SupraSPL said:

As far as fertilizer goes, if I try to push yields higher, quality suffers. I get dreading or buds that shade themselves out, bud rot, less frosting, less flavor and in the worst cases, overfert can cause farmy smelling buds. I have been really stingy with electricity in veg (for no reason) and with the amount of soil in each bucket (to get a timely finish with no dreading). The next thing I plan to try is more soil/veg up bigger for more root mass and cut the underbrush a bit more. Basically a taller canopy since LED gives me more headroom and the ladies that get tall seem to yield best for me.

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Hi I'm still pretty new to the site but I've never come across the term 'dreading' in reference to a plant. Would anybody mind explaining? Thanks in advance

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Dreading AKA foxtailing, in my opinion a bad thing because the new calyxs are immature mixed with calyxs underneath that are fully mature. If you let the new calyxs mature, the old calyxs get overripe or the delay may even lead to bud rot. It detracts from bag appeal and bud density. May affect flavor and potency. Some plants are more prone to finish like this. I suspect there are some things can make it worse like excess heat in the canopy, excess fertilizer available during the finishing weeks, killing off the root hairs and causing root regrowth (by underwatering or overwatering)

It has been suggested that organic growers may want to avoid certain fertilizers/hormones during flowering such as excessive kelp meal, alfalfa meal, high N ferts etc.

SupraSPL said:

Happy, I get what you are saying, but I am not sure I buy into the idea that both GG and I are simply poor growers. Neither of us are neglecting our gardens or failing in any major way and we have both been at it for years. I have been working in commercial greenhouses since the age of 8. I am sure there is some room for improvement of course, but I doubt that we would increase our yields by 50% by being schooled by these expert 1 g/W growers that we hear about.

That said, I do believe 1g/W is possible with HPS, 1.5gr/W with commercial LED and 2gr/W with diy LED, but as jbone said it may require vertical bulbs, brand new bulbs every cycle, long veg times, long flower times, and likely lower quality nugs like the giant skunks I mentioned above. The point is, if you make all those sacrifices and get 1 g/W, how much medicine did you really grow if there is only half the amount of cannabinoids?

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Thanks for the reply Supra. You are both better growers than me because I am just starting. But I am wondering what would be the maximum yield possible with led and AT600. Next week there is a Greentech meeting in Amsterdam regarding horticultural technology. There are some professionals on HPS and led. Will see what they have to say about the maximum possibilities of led and HPS.

happy75 said:

Hi Greengenes. I liked your thread and the results, it inspired me a lot. You stated it above...You are a 1.5 ish per light guy... I was wondering... Some people reach with the hps 1.0 grams/watt. You reached 0.66, that means that a very good grower has results 50% above yours with hps (no offence). What would happen when those growers would grow with the AT600? Would or could they improve your ledresult with also 50%? So reach 1.5 gr/watt? Of would 1 gr/watt be the max possible?

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No...nobody can ever do better than me...I am the best of all time....hahah OF COURSE THAT MY GROW IS NOT THE LIMIT OF THE AT600.
But seriously, I have never gotten very close to 1g/w of full trimmed prime buds. Specially with one solo light no crossover...how many 4x4 tents have you seen with over 1000g( in it???I haven't seen any mayself. The ones that pull those numbers are usually covering closer to 5x5+(That's 56% more space than a 4x4), using multiple lights for crossover, and run co2(~25% increase...some even claim 40%)

Also...people seem to think 1g/w with a 1000w is 2lbs...actually ~15% more. It's would be 2.26lbs@1g/w with my 1000w hps(pulling 1028w total).


VVVVRead what I just posted on the last page...specially the bold partVVVV

Greengenes707 said:

Yes I could get it up for sure...but that has to do with me as a grower, not the lights I think

I have said it many times I am a 1.5(.68g/w))ish per light guy...always have been. I've bumped it up to 1.75(~.8g/w), but only once and the other times with that strain were over 1.5, but not by too much. And that was with multi lights. I was not originally satisfied with this run because I thought I would have been close to 1g/w with hps, but I just don't and never did. I'm getting more proud of it the more I come back to reality(my reality). The were both solo lights with no help and pulled solid numbers. If that was a true 4x8 garden with no divider I think I would have really had a big pull. But all things considering, not bad at all imo.

My basic statement to all is... for me this at600 does everything a 1000w hps does/used to do for me. If you are a person who yields more than I do with their hps...then you will yield more than I do with an at600 and I would expect it to replace your 1K like it did for me.

Next run will also have co2, which I expect close to 20%+ yield bump...I personally believe that the light(form both) was not fully utilized by the plants because of a lack in the other factors such as co2.
Bigger pots+better soil+co2+no divider=even bigger yields and buds for me.

I will have a diffent strain in the mix too...but BD will be around too.

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My grow showed that the a grower(me in this case) can replace what he/she can produce with a 1000w hps by switching to a at600 led. So what ever that is person to person the atr600 will do.


The smell and bag appeal have what have gotten me my reputation in my area...outdoor, hps, led does't matter, my buds are an extra shelf above the top...not to toot my own horn, but it's true. So I know that I am a good if not better than that grower...yield I just am not the king of yet. But by no means is my pulls anything that isn't up to par. Look around and see how many people ewith straight jaw dropping n gardens are only pulling 1.25-1.6 per light...check out medicropper on youtube, great grower with massive gardens, mostly fresh air and pulls +/-1.5/light in 18000w gardens. So I know even though there is the potential to do better(increase yield by 33%ish), I am right there and doing just fine for what it is.

genuity said:

it's not hard to reach that 1g/w with hps(hood) or vert

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That is what we keep hearing but I am not seeing it in years of growing with bare 600s and I never see it in any of my friends setups, 600s and 1000s, 6 foot tall huge skunk bushes couldn't manage it. When I was getting .5 g/W with HPS some of the colas were as wide as soda cans but the quality was not very impressive.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent GG, I think that your g/W is very good and I am unsure about how much room for 'improvement' there really is.

SupraSPL said:

That is what we keep hearing but I am not seeing it in years of growing with bare 600s and I never see it in any of my friends setups, 600s and 1000s, 6 foot tall huge skunk bushes couldn't manage it. When I was getting .5 g/W with HPS some of the colas were as wide as soda cans but the quality was not very impressive.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent GG, I think that your g/W is very good and I am unsure about how much room for 'improvement' there really is.

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It's no tagent at all...it's exactly how I feel. I try and try and have everything going for me the whole time...and then fall well short. Doesn't make sense to MY reality...but I keep striving for it.

SupraSPL said:

That is what we keep hearing but I am not seeing it in years of growing with bare 600s and I never see it in any of my friends setups, 600s and 1000s, 6 foot tall huge skunk bushes couldn't manage it. When I was getting .5 g/W with HPS some of the colas were as wide as soda cans but the quality was not very impressive.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent GG, I think that your g/W is very good and I am unsure about how much room for 'improvement' there really is.

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i know a couple people that hit over 1 gpw with a 1000w. All 3 are growing the same og strain. they average 2.5 lbs per light in hydro bucket systems. its all harsh chemy weed. they also have 6 - 10 1000's going ...Supposedly one of them paid 5k for the strain.. Which is utterly stupid.... aside from them I have never seen it.. My best under a 1000w was 24 zips Thats barely over 0.5 gpw

SupraSPL said:

That is what we keep hearing but I am not seeing it in years of growing with bare 600s and I never see it in any of my friends setups, 600s and 1000s, 6 foot tall huge skunk bushes couldn't manage it. When I was getting .5 g/W with HPS some of the colas were as wide as soda cans but the quality was not very impressive.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent GG, I think that your g/W is very good and I am unsure about how much room for 'improvement' there really is.

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not trying to continue the tangent but IMO and experience biggesr plants under artificial lighting is not what you want when trying to max yield. vert barebulb grows might be another matter as the light isnt getting pumped downwards in such a case. dont need soda can buds to get more yield. very missleading to the eye.

sea of green is how it can be done. this is the only way i say it can because it the only one where i've accomplished it myself. a mere two times iv pulled 1 gpw off a 1k and both times it was 6 inch suare pots sea of green with a late fimming a week into 12/12 and supercropping to accomplish a string free LST effect. plants were about 12-15 inches tall at flip and 20-24 after stretch. even canopy where no budsites are in less than optimal position for light and air flow.

i have zero pictures or evidence outside of nah brain though so take it with the "stranger on weed forum spouting off about yields" pinch of salt lol

maybe some can accomplish 1gpw without pampering in a small garden but thats the only way i could ever get it done.

5k for the strain hy?!?! i think i just threw up a lil. my mind cannot wrap round that statement lol

happy75 said:

Thanks for the reply Supra. You are both better growers than me because I am just starting. But I am wondering what would be the maximum yield possible with led and AT600. Next week there is a Greentech meeting in Amsterdam regarding horticultural technology. There are some professionals on HPS and led. Will see what they have to say about the maximum possibilities of led and HPS.

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This grow is proof that whatever a grower can yield with a top of the line 1000w hid they can also, pretty much, yield with this at 600 led. Max yield possible with led??? 12

I personally think yield is based on nute strength. I feel a lower ec or ppm will result in better quality higher ec ppm will result in more weight. I have no back up to my claim just my opinion from looking at grows on the forum and noticing that the great looking buds are usually lower in feeding strength, but sog does increase yield and so does vert but no matter the style the people who feed lower seem to get better quality.

A Bitch A Blunt And A Beer, Lifes Great

Hi,
did you make a cost calculation?

I took some random Equipment with the names of the items in it (some 1000W Horti eye, one "raptor" Hood, and one Soli Tek Ballast 1000W -though there r different raptor Hoods with different Price tags etc).
So i came up with about 500$ for the HPS Equipment.
Is that somewhere near correct?
I think someone said the AT costs about 2500$.

So thats about 2000$ you need to get back in electricity-cost and savings on hps bulbs.

How Long does it take (years?) until the AT600 makes up for the high initial Investment ? I think you said something about using several tents and 2000W+ and the Need an Additional AC unit and stuff like that...but how is it with just the AT vs HPS in your case?

Or could you just sum up the cost for the hps and at Equip? so i could use the cost of electricity in my Country and make a guess.
Wondering, Apache Tech is only US? So i guess for europe you have to add another 500$ for taxes.

Sorry if you already mentioned that, but this awesome grow report is 42 pages long.

lax123 said:

Hi,
did you make a cost calculation?

I took some random Equipment with the names of the items in it (some 1000W Horti eye, one "raptor" Hood, and one Soli Tek Ballast 1000W -though there r different raptor Hoods with different Price tags etc).
So i came up with about 500$ for the HPS Equipment.
Is that somewhere near correct?
I think someone said the AT costs about 2500$.

So thats about 2000$ you need to get back in electricity-cost and savings on hps bulbs.

How Long does it take (years?) until the AT600 makes up for the high initial Investment ? I think you said something about using several tents and 2000W+ and the Need an Additional AC unit and stuff like that...but how is it with just the AT vs HPS in your case?

Or could you just sum up the cost for the hps and at Equip? so i could use the cost of electricity in my Country and make a guess.
Wondering, Apache Tech is only US? So i guess for europe you have to add another 500$ for taxes.

Sorry if you already mentioned that, but this awesome grow report is 42 pages long.

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you will get it for around 1900 to 2 grand so at least 500 cheaper

Yep so call it 1500 difference in up front cost. The LED savings come from reduced electric for the light, reduced ventilation, reduced AC, no replacing bulbs and there is an improvement in bud quality. Also consider, greatly reduced heat allows you to grow more in a given space, use your entire space more thoroughly or even grow in a space that would not be possible at all with HPS. Lower ventilation allows for better stealth and more contact time with the carbon.

LED lacks the infrared spike that all HIDs have. That infrared driver water out of the leaves leading to higher humidity in the grow space. During the summer, removing humidity cost me almost as much as running the lights, so that is a huge advantage. GG pays $0.36/kWh if I recall.

If a person doesn't mind paying for their 1000+w of hids on the electric bill and has money for LEDs then they should just get two of the at600s. Two at600 would be over 1300 watts and I think that's pretty close to the 1000w hid with the ballast and etc...

lax123 said:

Hi,
did you make a cost calculation?

I took some random Equipment with the names of the items in it (some 1000W Horti eye, one "raptor" Hood, and one Soli Tek Ballast 1000W -though there r different raptor Hoods with different Price tags etc).
So i came up with about 500$ for the HPS Equipment.
Is that somewhere near correct?
I think someone said the AT costs about 2500$.

So thats about 2000$ you need to get back in electricity-cost and savings on hps bulbs.

How Long does it take (years?) until the AT600 makes up for the high initial Investment ? I think you said something about using several tents and 2000W+ and the Need an Additional AC unit and stuff like that...but how is it with just the AT vs HPS in your case?

Or could you just sum up the cost for the hps and at Equip? so i could use the cost of electricity in my Country and make a guess.
Wondering, Apache Tech is only US? So i guess for europe you have to add another 500$ for taxes.

Sorry if you already mentioned that, but this awesome grow report is 42 pages long.

Click to expand...

You can also do diy and create a light just productive for around 500-1000 depending on wattage and parts but it will last longer than hid

A Bitch A Blunt And A Beer, Lifes Great

Mt Doo said:

I personally think yield is based on nute strength. I feel a lower ec or ppm will result in better quality higher ec ppm will result in more weight. I have no back up to my claim just my opinion from looking at grows on the forum and noticing that the great looking buds are usually lower in feeding strength, but sog does increase yield and so does vert but no matter the style the people who feed lower seem to get better quality.

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My question for you is how much is from reading and how much is from experience?
My way is that you should basically be feeding at their max level already. If one were to increase ppm of my garden it would be burn them and be negative. If you are feeding low but you have never found how much/high ppm they will take without burning, then I agree with your statement...but that is just based on plant needs more than is available and is deficient in a sense.

That is all based on a garden that needs to be feed. With a good soil mix there should be plenty in there at high concentrations to get a top end yield.

SOG doesn't change the yield per harvest...it increases the amount of harvest per year. so in stead of 4units 4 times a year...it's 4units 6 times a year.

Vert is interesting...I think that the increased canopy size is the bigger player in that situation.
The best are the undercurrent guys that don't get crazy g/w...but get mega crazy g/sqft...using vert and horizontals...basically sun power top to bottom of the plants.

lax123 said:

Hi,
did you make a cost calculation?
I took some random Equipment with the names of the items in it (some 1000W Horti eye, one "raptor" Hood, and one Soli Tek Ballast 1000W -though there r different raptor Hoods with different Price tags etc).
So i came up with about 500$ for the HPS Equipment.
Is that somewhere near correct?
I think someone said the AT costs about 2500$.
So thats about 2000$ you need to get back in electricity-cost and savings on hps bulbs.
How Long does it take (years?) until the AT600 makes up for the high initial Investment ? I think you said something about using several tents and 2000W+ and the Need an Additional AC unit and stuff like that...but how is it with just the AT vs HPS in your case?
Or could you just sum up the cost for the hps and at Equip? so i could use the cost of electricity in my Country and make a guess.
Wondering, Apache Tech is only US? So i guess for europe you have to add another 500$ for taxes.
Sorry if you already mentioned that, but this awesome grow report is 42 pages long.

Click to expand...

Supra and spaz pretty much covered it...
You can get the at600 for $1950...and I pay $0.36/KwH....comes out to about $90/60days...so 16 cycles on just lighting
Then I save 80% on cooing cost. with a 735w AC unit being the go to when running multiple 1000w in my situation(7ft ceilings) that is much more than my lighting savings.
As where about 100w with my inline cools the whole room with 1800w of LED in it. Honestly the cooling is the biggest savings imo. But you need to be on a larger scale to truly benefit form it.
And that is basically the story of AT...the bigger the garden the better fit they are, and the more the gardener will save.


To me with the at600's capabilities, it's now practical to say that part(1/3) of the harvest can pay off the light in 3 months...you produce 1.5units...still profit form 1 and the .5 pays the difference from hps to led. And I know in certain area's someones .5 is worth 2X mine, so it could be less.

Grandmah said:

If a person doesn't mind paying for their 1000+w of hids on the electric bill and has money for LEDs then they should just get two of the at600s. Two at600 would be over 1300 watts and I think that's pretty close to the 1000w hid with the ballast and etc...

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What a thought...probably not price practical, but sure would be cool.
At that point I would go all 50lenes and turn the drivers down to pull 600 each light...1200w total...then put it against any hps/cmh/what ever on the market or in development.

Mt Doo said:

You can also do diy and create a light just productive for around 500-1000 depending on wattage and parts but it will last longer than hid
A Bitch A Blunt And A Beer, Lifes Great

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If I was a buyer in EU...I would diy

Greengenes707 said:

If I was a buyer in EU...I would diy

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EU sucks for growlights, also for other things but that is an other dicussion.

happy75 said:

EU sucks for growlights, also for other things but that is an other dicussion.

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