Anyone a fan of defoliation to increase yeild?

Sativied said:

Your question implies otherwise, which is basically asking what happens with photosynthate. Look into the phloem pathway for example.

Here you go: http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect19.htm

Transport in plants occurs on three levels:

• the uptake and release of water and solutes by individual cells
  • absorption of water and minerals from he soil by root cells
• short-distance transport of substances from cell to cell
  • loading of sucrose from photosynthetic cells into the sieve tube cells of the phloem
• long-distance transport of sap within the xylem and PHLOEM
  • this is a WHOLE PLANT phenomena - transport of photosynthate from leaf to root

As the last sentence says: "This explanation is very simplified - scientists are just now discovering the subtle details of phloem movement in plants". Nobody completely and exactly understands photosynthesis as a previous poster suggested, it is however a well-known fact that all leaves work for the entire plant, not just the part/fruit they connect too.

Photosynthate is simply put energy harvested from the sun, stored in sugar molecules which are transported and used throughout the entire plant, everywhere where energy is needed for cellular processes (creating stems, leaves, buds, and roots).

The people who think they notice a yield increase just have too many plants or bud sites packed together. A fuck up than can be partly unfucked by removing some leaves. I have no doubt some people with some strains actually are able to push yields to a max but in general it's just a bad idea and completely unnecessary to get max yields.

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Yes, again, I understand that leaves work for the whole plant, but the question is, do they work for every part of the plant equaly efficiently. It is well known that branches that are shaded don't grow as strong and buds that are shaded don't grow as big. I don't know why you think it's unreasonable to consider one possible explanation being that most of the energy gets used by cells near where photsythesys is happening and long range transport is not so efficient.

I'm definately not an advocate of radical defoliating, but if you have a situation where you have lots of leaves covering your buds (for example in SCROG GROW), I think it might be reasonable to try and remove some of those leaves, leting leaves that grow out of the buds do more work.

Spanky84 said:

It is well known that branches that are shaded don't grow as strong and buds that are shaded don't grow as big.

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That's a common misconception not a well-known fact. Temperatures and auxins play a large role that skew the perception. I've grown a plant of which half the buds were underneath the canopy of a much large sativa ending up the same size and weight as the unshaded half. I prefer to pack quite a few plants and spread them out in many budsites and always a few buds that are entirely overlapped with leaves. They do not grow smaller or undeveloped unless they are much lower than the canopy where ideal temp.

A large fan leave is much more efficient than a few sugar leaves coated with refracting and reflecting trichomes. The larger surface means more chlorophyll means more photons hitting the Mg atom (photosynthesis...). However, it's not a matter of fans vs sugar/bud leaves, it's fans+sugar leaves vs sugar leaves alone. Surely you have noticed the leaves below other leaves aren't entirely in the dark.

Scrogs in which defoliating helps are simply too packed, scrogged too long too much. Having for example 16 smaller bud sites per plant obviously means more branches competing with eachother, compared to the same plant with for example 8 decent size colas. More budsites is more branches/stems is more leaves, which can get too much up to a point where removing leaves is the best way to unfuck the situation. That should not be interpreted as defoliation being a best practice in general (or that those 16 result in more nett weight than those 8, you also get twice the amount of branches with popcorn cause packed plants stretch and when stretched too far popcorn is pretty much inevitable).

Some plants are extremely leafy and may benefit in any setup but in such a case it's still unfucking a fucked up situation (working with bad genetics that is).

If you are doing it for light purposes:
Tuck before you pluck.

If you can bend a leafout of the way and tuck it under something so it won't go back to it's original spot, then do that instead of cutting it off.

If you need air circulation on the bottom branches thats a diferent story.

Either way, I don't recommend taking any leaves off of an auto unless they are 70% dead or have something on them that you don't want to spread.
Photo's in veg can be almost completely defoliated over and over as long as they have ample recovery time in between as well as all the nutes they need to make up for the lost growth. Once flowering starts, imo, only remove leaves that are 70% dead, or infested.

Sativied said:

That's a common misconception not a well-known fact. Temperatures and auxins play a large role that skew the perception. I've grown a plant of which half the buds were underneath the canopy of a much large sativa ending up the same size and weight as the unshaded half. I prefer to pack quite a few plants and spread them out in many budsites and always a few buds that are entirely overlapped with leaves. They do not grow smaller or undeveloped unless they are much lower than the canopy where ideal temp.

A large fan leave is much more efficient than a few sugar leaves coated with refracting and reflecting trichomes. The larger surface means more chlorophyll means more photons hitting the Mg atom (photosynthesis...). However, it's not a matter of fans vs sugar/bud leaves, it's fans+sugar leaves vs sugar leaves alone. Surely you have noticed the leaves below other leaves aren't entirely in the dark.

Scrogs in which defoliating helps are simply too packed, scrogged too long too much. Having for example 16 smaller bud sites per plant obviously means more branches competing with eachother, compared to the same plant with for example 8 decent size colas. More budsites is more branches/stems is more leaves, which can get too much up to a point where removing leaves is the best way to unfuck the situation. That should not be interpreted as defoliation being a best practice in general (or that those 16 result in more nett weight than those 8, you also get twice the amount of branches with popcorn cause packed plants stretch and when stretched too far popcorn is pretty much inevitable).

Some plants are extremely leafy and may benefit in any setup but in such a case it's still unfucking a fucked up situation (working with bad genetics that is).

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Thank you. That was helpful.

vigorously growing plants can easily outgrow a space
cutting back some of the weaker parts can allow the space to be filled to it max with stronger growth

overall if done correctly with the right strains more bud can physically fit in a given space
if some foliage is removed this makes way for more colas in the space
this would include training and removing weaker shoots too

on a single plant under ideal conditions if every part of the plant is in free space
and has good lighting i cant see how removing any leaves could help anything
you could even allow all the vine like side shoots to fatten up more if they receive direct light

if your plants are growing fast you can remove the older leaves that are tatty they will be replaced with nice new ones
in 3 days or so
i often wonder why some folk have such tatty looking plants, each to their own

peace

stickybuds* said:

In early flower, if u have to many bud sites it's good to remove weaker shoots/buds sites, as this gives you a higher yeild and larger cola's in late flower
but has to be done right to give the this result

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do you not understand the difference between pruning and trimming and defoliation?

can someone please helpme and give me so advice please i have a grow at the min, im new to this forum and also new to growing. im in the uk and have 4 plants. there all sprouted and look healthy except the stems are a little long. i am currently using 2 CFL lights (spiral) 2700 k warm white and im using 2 of these. i am thinking of getting another 2 so each plant as there own light. i have been told and read online that you can do a full grow with just these CFL lights. is that right? if i get another 2 would they be ok on that light untill right to the end? would appreciate everyone input on it. thanks guys

oh and the i have 3 speed haze fem seeds that are now small stem plants and 1 pineapple gum seed which is the longest and is the fastest. germinated first the pineapple one

i am also using mylar silver and white reflective sheets all around my grow room so there getting light from that too. plus i also have a small fan blowing constantly. does it sound like im doing anything wrong so far? done loads of reading/research online and thats why im growing the way i am and so far its working

you are gonna need way more cfls if you want to yield anything worthwhile man. gimme a minute and i'll see if I can't dig you up a cfl thread you can check out.

here is a good place to start jared https://www.rollitup.org/t/advantage-v-disadvantage-cfls.57813/

thanks mate will 1 cfl light be good enough per plant? i was reading a blog ages ago for the cheapest way to grow and it said you can use just 2 100w house bulbs so i went and baught 2 cfl bulbs which are equivilant to 175w per bulb would 2 more of these be ok? dont want to buy mega expensive lights if i dont need to

all I can say is check out the cfl section. I don't use cfls

jaredbroders said:

can someone please helpme and give me so advice please i have a grow at the min, im new to this forum and also new to growing. im in the uk and have 4 plants. there all sprouted and look healthy except the stems are a little long. i am currently using 2 CFL lights (spiral) 2700 k warm white and im using 2 of these. i am thinking of getting another 2 so each plant as there own light. i have been told and read online that you can do a full grow with just these CFL lights. is that right? if i get another 2 would they be ok on that light untill right to the end? would appreciate everyone input on it. thanks guys

oh and the i have 3 speed haze fem seeds that are now small stem plants and 1 pineapple gum seed which is the longest and is the fastest. germinated first the pineapple one

i am also using mylar silver and white reflective sheets all around my grow room so there getting light from that too. plus i also have a small fan blowing constantly. does it sound like im doing anything wrong so far? done loads of reading/research online and thats why im growing the way i am and so far its working

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My advice would be to ditch the cfl's and buy an hps, they are only £60 and they give you far better results than those candles you're using now. You only need to grow a 1/3 of an ounce extra to pay for itself, which you will do and then some using proper lights!!

It is possible to grow a plant using cfl's, but you will kick yourself that you didn't buy an hps sooner than you did.

Sativied said:

Your question implies otherwise, which is basically asking what happens with photosynthate. Look into the phloem pathway for example.

Here you go: http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/lect19.htm

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Surely this is describing translocation and not photosynthesis?

I think the common misconception here is that leaves are essential to translocation, when this is clearly not the case.

according to neo, the guy who can't even read an academic study?

you'll have to excuse me If I don't take your teachings to heart professor

joe macclennan said:

according to neo, the guy who can't even read an academic study?

you'll have to excuse me If I don't take your teachings to heart professor

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Joe for the third time, I READ and AGREED with the study you posted about leaves not working to their full potential if they are not receiving enough light, what else would you like me to do mate?

I've never claimed to be a professor, in fact I'm learning a lot about why plants react the way they do when you defoliate them.

Science and plenty of places around the web say that if you over water plants they will become sick and start wilting, yet I'm growing my plants as we speak in a shed load of water and they seem to be doing quite well on it. So I guess not everything is clear cut as science says?

I would have thought that at some point at least just one defolihater would have done an experiment to prove defoliation does not work, and it would be posted on the internet somewhere for everyone to see? Do you not think that strange, I do? It would have killed the argument and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

I usually grow the plant 5 feet tall in veg. and cut the main stem right above the soil. throw the main plant into the trash so al you have is a stem. and put it flowering . cant get any better then that,

kinddiesel said:

I usually grow the plant 5 feet tall in veg. and cut the main stem right above the soil. throw the main plant into the trash so al you have is a stem. and put it flowering . cant get any better then that,

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I think you'll find that's topping and not defoliation.

neo12345 said:

Joe for the third time, I READ and AGREED with the study you posted about leaves not working to their full potential if they are not receiving enough light, what else would you like me to do mate?

I've never claimed to be a professor, in fact I'm learning a lot about why plants react the way they do when you defoliate them.

Science and plenty of places around the web say that if you over water plants they will become sick and start wilting, yet I'm growing my plants as we speak in a shed load of water and they seem to be doing quite well on it. So I guess not everything is clear cut as science says?

I would have thought that at some point at least just one defolihater would have done an experiment to prove defoliation does not work, and it would be posted on the internet somewhere for everyone to see? Do you not think that strange, I do? It would have killed the argument and we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

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derpdeederdeedor

i'm talking about the half dozen other links I posted...for YOU

You didn't come back to me with a smoke report on your cucumbers or whatever it was you posted, you found some studies on defoliation which didn't have a positive effect on yield and I posted that one about the positive effect on yield when done with grapes.

Really in the big scheme of this argument they are fairly irrelevant because we are talking about defoliating cannabis plants whilst manipulating their environment, which is totally different to the reports that we posted. The way you keep going on about them you would think they are definitive proof!!

You clearly aren't interested in defoliation and that's fine, nobody is going to force you to try it. If you're happy growing 1970's style au naturel then that's fine too, but if you are going to tell us that defoliation doesn't work on cannabis plants then prove it?

People come here for a quick antidote to their minor issue, what they receive is pages on pages of anecdotes , but I suppose this is the smudge of today's marginal progress.

I have partaken in numerous levels of defoliation. More so, I have witnessed folks on here not defoliate at all, and I've seen folks defoliate 100% and lollipop to shit. I'll tell you right now neither are optimal for bud production. Also, you can throw away that horse shit about NATURE, and NATURAL; sorry little sprout, that's not the sun you're popping up under- where your excessive level of fans would all be beneficial, it's a lamp, rated in lumens, aka less par than that beaut you evolved under

When and where to defoliate- Strain/conditions varitaions aside. What I have gathered is that if you can effectively clear all of the leaves and stems from the lower zone that will produce smaller than .3g nugs, do it, and do it early in veg! This becomes easier the more familiar you get with a strain and your production possibilities. Generally the first 1-2 side stems can be chopped from main chutes without yield detriment (these are the little guys that turn into stretchy spaghetti); note this is where YOUR personal production possibilities come into the ruling. This also becomes easier as you become better at training your plant into the # of tops you're looking for, as well as how much periphery you need. If you're running scrog like me you want to focus the plants energy up to the photo zone, around the screen, where the fans and stems are most productive. The early veg defoliation will also create a denser photo-zone canopy caused by the extra branching stimulus.

When not to defoliate- Leave all of the healthy fans on the perimeter of girls alone. After the veg defoliation, only remove those lower fans that are either entirely shaded out or starting to fade and get dry/crispy. All of the healthy, mid level fans should remain untouched outside of special circumstances. The only time I remove a healthy fan from the upper 20% of the canopy is if it's shading the entire middle of the plant (area where you can train smaller periphery into).

Looks at how this guy does it. Chops everything that isn't resting on the screen which is pretty much entirely photo-efficient production being that it's below a powerful 1000.

Similarly, reddiamond, whose pics I stole, did a ton of pruning under his dense canopy, but definitely only the appropriate level of defoliation. It's all about maintaining the densest possible photo-zone. This is why internodal spacing is hugely important (very strain dependent), but once again, can be compensated for by the upper branching set in motion by early-veg pruning stimulus.
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Note that my opinions are best catered to dense SOG or Scrog. Anything I say is NULL for outdoors. Also, my defoliation really hinges on the side of basic pruning, but in my opinion the right level is about not being too attached or unattached when you start cutting these . Pun intended.