Almost 1/3 of all homicides in my county 2010-16 were police killings

jonsnow399 said:
the public was never gonna win an arms race and don't need to, you ever hear of guerrilla fighters? The Viet cong had no Air force, navy or sophisticated weapons and kicked crap out of the usa.
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Omfg. It's not that it's factually wrong.. more that you are actually in the mind set of gorilla warfare vs your own country. You guys need stripped of guns fast.

jonsnow399 said:
First one, a win is a win/QUOTE]
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A man steps on your lawn, you ask him to get off. He pulls out a gun and mows down your entire family. You run toward him, he steps back, puts a bullet in your head. He's off your lawn, you win.
 
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jonsnow399 said:
One of the reasons we think we have a constitutional right to own guns is because of the 2nd amendment and the Supreme court has upheld it. You want the U.S. govt (currently represented by Trump) to be the only one with guns?
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Anything the government upholds means it's correct?. Do a check of violent murders in America, and this I think does not show the full story such as some cop murders or missing persons. The only places you are likely to find similar or worse gun crime is third world country's and/or country's basically ran by drug cartels. ''Constitutional right'' is no reasoning for these statistics in a civilized country. The truth of it is cultural break down. I don't doubt many government officials can see guns need to go but you guys are so culturally rooted in this falsity guns make you safer they are very much aware of your dumb ass mentality of ''gorilla warfare''. On top of that is the out right greed of gun corp, guaranteed they are playing that shit right up ''you need to protect yourself from yada yada''. Playing all your fears to keep you thinking you need a gun. It isn't them or their children getting shot. Your government created a problem that they probably want to, but is almost unsolvable. That's probably where it ties into ttys's comments on a cop/civilian arms race.

Keep on waving the hate stick at trump (as if he's any worse than bush and co). Is he a good president?, he's about as good as you culturally deserve.
 
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Flowki said:
Omfg. It's not that it's factually wrong.. more that you are actually in the mind set of gorilla warfare vs your own country. You guys need stripped of guns fast.



A man steps on your lawn, you ask him to get off. He pulls out a gun and mows down your entire family. You run toward him, he steps back, puts a bullet in your head. He's off your lawn, you win.
Click to expand...
a man steps on my lawn, I ask him to get off, he pulls a gun, I pull mine and blow his head off. He's off my lawn, I win! Makes about as much sense as your post.
 
jonsnow399 said:
a man steps on my lawn, I ask him to get off, he pulls a gun, I pull mine and blow his head off. He's off my lawn, I win! Makes about as much sense as your post.
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A man pulls a gun, you have no chance to pull yours.
Flowki said:
Omfg. It's not that it's factually wrong.. more that you are actually in the mind set of gorilla warfare vs your own country. You guys need stripped of guns fast.
Click to expand...

gorilla (snicker)

We agree here. US gun nuts have this fantasy of small arms resistance against military weapons that include helicopter gun ships and missiles. Fat old white men who talk of armed resistance haven't a clue what they'd face. Oh sure, maybe some could survive for a while in the mountains. Until winter, anyway.

Australia did it right recently with the arms purchases and new gun control laws. Gun nuts here have been distorting how well the program worked to reduce gun crime.
 
Fogdog said:
A man pulls a gun, you have no chance to pull yours.


gorilla (snicker)

We agree here. US gun nuts have this fantasy of small arms resistance against military weapons that include helicopter gun ships and missiles. Fat old white men who talk of armed resistance haven't a clue what they'd face. Oh sure, maybe some could survive for a while in the mountains. Until winter, anyway.

Australia did it right recently with the arms purchases and new gun control laws. Gun nuts here have been distorting how well the program worked to reduce gun crime.
Click to expand...
Guns are safe when used properly, we need to restrict the hands they go into and not the guns themselves.
 
Fogdog said:
We agree here. US gun nuts have this fantasy of small arms resistance against military weapons that include helicopter gun ships and missiles. Fat old white men who talk of armed resistance haven't a clue what they'd face. Oh sure, maybe some could survive for a while in the mountains. Until winter, anyway.

Australia did it right recently with the arms purchases and new gun control laws. Gun nuts here have been distorting how well the program worked to reduce gun crime.
Click to expand...

Yes those are probably, or at-least media stereo typed people who will resist gun laws. It's very likely deeper than that with other ethnics holding the same mentality on top of gang, drug and random shootings. All have very different reasoning/cultures but the goto of a gun is the common factor in acting out the end game. In my country that end game usually results in fists or at worse knives/blunt weapons. Far less damage can be done.

SneekyNinja said:
Guns are safe when used properly, we need to restrict the hands they go into and not the guns themselves.
Click to expand...

This would limit the problem but not by much. The things you don't seem to account for is bad cultures that heavily depend on guns. For as long as those cultures exist gun smuggling or illegal sales/theft will ensure guns are getting in the hands of the wrong people simply at a greater cost. First time offenses are a thing, giving people with clean records guns will only go so far. The politics, cultures and way of life in America (from an outsider) seem very harsh and create a lot of mental break downs or momentary flip outs. So imagine if your idea worked and only trustworthy people are given guns. What if one of those people become unstable by what ever force (including radicalization) they have a huge advantage over the rest of the town. It basically has to be an all or nothing kind of deal while tackling the core cultural issues such as the glorified gangster life styles and so forth. Gangs and so forth will always exist but the connection between ''you crossed me'' to ''I'll settle this with gun fire'' needs to be broken. Removing guns almost entirely will quickly break that connection purely down to lack of availability. But naturally ''quickly'' would be over a 5 to 10 year period with very harsh crack downs by police force to break trafficking cycles.

I think also is a correlation between gang count and size a long with general crime such as robbery's. It is easier for people who would be considered ''weak'' to bridge those short fillings with a gun. Crime and gang activity over all would decline along with fatality.
 
Flowki said:
Yes those are probably, or at-least media stereo typed people who will resist gun laws. It's very likely deeper than that with other ethnics holding the same mentality on top of gang, drug and random shootings. All have very different reasoning/cultures but the goto of a gun is the common factor in acting out the end game. In my country that end game usually results in fists or at worse knives/blunt weapons. Far less damage can be done.



This would limit the problem but not by much. The things you don't seem to account for is bad cultures that heavily depend on guns. For as long as those cultures exist gun smuggling or illegal sales/theft will ensure guns are getting in the hands of the wrong people simply at a greater cost. First time offenses are a thing, giving people with clean records guns will only go so far. The politics, cultures and way of life in America (from an outsider) seem very harsh and create a lot of mental break downs or momentary flip outs. So imagine if your idea worked and only trustworthy people are given guns. What if one of those people become unstable by what ever force (including radicalization) they have a huge advantage over the rest of the town. It basically has to be an all or nothing kind of deal while tackling the core cultural issues such as the glorified gangster life styles and so forth. Gangs and so forth will always exist but the connection between ''you crossed me'' to ''I'll settle this with gun fire'' needs to be broken. Removing guns almost entirely will quickly break that connection purely down to lack of availability. But naturally ''quickly'' would be over a 5 to 10 year period with very harsh crack downs by police force to break trafficking cycles.

I think also is a correlation between gang count and size a long with general crime such as robbery's. It is easier for people who would be considered ''weak'' to bridge those short fillings with a gun. Crime and gang activity over all would decline along with fatality.
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The tl;Dr version:

"Gangs will have guns either way, so fuck normal people just to make it a little harder for gangs"
 
SneekyNinja said:
The tl;Dr version:

"Gangs will have guns either way, so fuck normal people just to make it a little harder for gangs"
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I get it, you're in a culture where guns is a way of life, you lack perspective to see it any other way.. and/or are caught up on short term implications blinding the long game.

And for the record, gangsters tend to kill other gangsters, not saying that's good or that innocents don't get caught up.

The bigger scare is the people pushed over the edge and takes out his/her own family, random nut jobs or extremists who run riot in a school, mall or comparable place filled with innocent life. What are the safety checks you can do on these people?.. bet most of them would pass em. Pretty easy to spot a gang banger.
 
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Flowki said:
I get it, you're in a culture where guns is a way of life, you lack perspective to see it any other way.. and/or are caught up on short term implications blinding the long game.

And for the record, gangsters tend to kill other gangsters, not saying that's good or that innocents don't get caught up.

The bigger scare is the people pushed over the edge and takes out his/her own family, random nut jobs or extremists who run riot in a school, mall or comparable place filled with innocent life. What are the safety checks you can do on these people?.. bet most of them would pass em. Pretty easy to spot a gang banger.
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Yet the police in this country have now proven themselves to be both the worst gang of murderous thugs in American history AND all but completely above the law.

Go figure...
 
SneekyNinja said:
Guns are safe when used properly, we need to restrict the hands they go into and not the guns themselves.
Click to expand...
Not really. US accident rates due to guns is orders of magnitude higher than most other countries. Simply putting a bullet into a gun makes one less safe. Not to mention the number of people who should not be carrying and the gun lobby defends their right to do so.

I recognize that gun death and safety are tiny issues in the grand scheme. Not to the people who are affected by it, but as a society this is a small issue. The few hundred killed, maimed or who lose loved ones to guns is a small number, so I guess I shouldn't consider them.
 
Fogdog said:
Not really. US accident rates due to guns is orders of magnitude higher than most other countries. Simply putting a bullet into a gun makes one less safe. Not to mention the number of people who should not be carrying and the gun lobby defends their right to do so.

I recognize that gun death and safety are tiny issues in the grand scheme. Not to the people who are affected by it, but as a society this is a small issue. The few hundred killed, maimed or who lose loved ones to guns is a small number, so I guess I shouldn't consider them.
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Ive already said we need to restrict the people with access to guns, not the guns themselves.

Stupid people kill themselves with electricity, ban electricity?

Restrict certain people to 12v DC?
 
SneekyNinja said:
Ive already said we need to restrict the people with access to guns, not the guns themselves.
Click to expand...
Accidental death and injury from a person's own firearm in the US is much higher than elsewhere. It's easy and quite natural to dismiss this as an avoidable mistake.

First, I challenge the assertion that personal gun ownership in this country as a right that shall not be abridged somehow protects freedom from tyranny. Maybe this made sense in the days of muskets.

Second, I challenge the assumption that the guns themselves are safe. They are not. Much could be done to make guns more safe by design.

Third, gun ownership should require regular safety re-certification to establish the gun owner understands protocol for safe gun ownership. Alongside of this severe penalties when a gun found not kept in a certified safe manner, including stripping the license to own a gun from the owner.

We have safety requirements for cars, why not guns? Handle a gun while drunk and get caught? Lose the right to own guns.
 
Fogdog said:
We have safety requirements for cars, why not guns? Handle a gun while drunk and get caught? Lose the right to own guns.
Click to expand...

That already exists in most states. If you are drunk and in possession of a firearm it is usually a felony or at least a midameaner. At the least you would lose your permit (if ccw). Btw, the limit is usually .02, not .08. so one drink and you are toast.
 
greg nr said:
That already exists in most states. If you are drunk and in possession of a firearm it is usually a felony. At the least you would lose your permit (if ccw).
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Maybe in the 3 states that have permit to own requirements. Even then, these laws are hardly ever enforced. Same goes when a gun that is stored in a manner that allowed a child to kill or injure in an accident. Laws are on the books that require guns be stored in a way to prevent a child from having acces but virtually nobody is ever charged for this.
 
ttystikk said:
Yet the police in this country have now proven themselves to be both the worst gang of murderous thugs in American history AND all but completely above the law.

Go figure...
Click to expand...

No doubt, but the connection between a violent nation and an even more violent police force can hardly be over looked, who knows what one came first. If you were to simply tame the police force then anarchy would ensue. Would seem more logical to cool down violent cultures/gun crime then the level of police hostility would also drop. At some point respect has to be had for police officers but I understand that can no be given if they are hostile. Only fear or hatred exists then.

Put yourself in the shoes of a white police officer. You pull a black man over for some minor offense and he gives you the usual ''it's coz I'm black'' routine, x that by how ever many, it's going to get on your nerves after a while no matter how professional you are. It may even push you into becoming racist. Pull another person over on a basic routine stop and he's one of those smart arsed self entitled anti establishment type who thinks he knows all about law and wants to make things as difficult as possible. The next guy you pull over seems ordinary, you ask him to step out the car, he reaches into his shorts and you're forced to shoot him. They riot in town saying it was an unlawful killing of a ''good lad'' despite the kilo of cocaine in possession that was surely planted by the government to cover the cops ass. This same police officer tells his work mates how his job is impossible, they speak of similar difficulties and they all reinforce the negativity of a unwinnable situation.

I can not for one second think all police officers join the force with nothing but malice inside. I think the large majority of the bad ones are human beings who were trying to do good but slowly broken by the impassable hatred of society and horror stories from previously broken officers.
 
If the job is that stressful and corrosive, there should be term limits on how long someone can be a cop. Even wal mart rotates it's customer services people. They can't do that job and stay sane.

Just because you get frustrated doesn't mean you can treat everyone like crap.
 
Flowki said:
No doubt, but the connection between a violent nation and an even more violent police force can hardly be over looked, who knows what one came first. If you were to simply tame the police force then anarchy would ensue. Would seem more logical to cool down violent cultures/gun crime then the level of police hostility would also drop. At some point respect has to be had for police officers but I understand that can no be given if they are hostile. Only fear or hatred exists then.

Put yourself in the shoes of a white police officer. You pull a black man over for some minor offense and he gives you the usual ''it's coz I'm black'' routine, x that by how ever many, it's going to get on your nerves after a while no matter how professional you are. It may even push you into becoming racist. Pull another person over on a basic routine stop and he's one of those smart arsed self entitled anti establishment type who thinks he knows all about law and wants to make things as difficult as possible. The next guy you pull over seems ordinary, you ask him to step out the car, he reaches into his shorts and you're forced to shoot him. They riot in town saying it was an unlawful killing of a ''good lad'' despite the kilo of cocaine in possession that was surely planted by the government to cover the cops ass. This same police officer tells his work mates how his job is impossible, they speak of similar difficulties and they all reinforce the negativity of a unwinnable situation.

I can not for one second think all police officers join the force with nothing but malice inside. I think the large majority of the bad ones are human beings who were trying to do good but slowly broken by the impassable hatred of society and horror stories from previously broken officers.
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Do you're saying corruption in police forces is inevitable and unavoidable.

I say that's compete bullshit and a copout- pun intended.

Restore accountability and the good cops will get rid of the bad ones- which will then restore the public's respect for their job.

Accountability. It's what's gone missing from all levels of government and corporations, and it's very much responsible for the slide of our country into the shitter.
 
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I've always argued (unsuccessfully) that there should be tiers to gun ownership. Hunting, self defense, and tactical. Each having it's own levels of training and certification. The lower the risk the weapon poses for mass murder, the lower the bar should be.

Anything in the tactical class - which would include guns without lever actuated safeties like glocks (the trigger safety is not a safety at all) and any semi auto capable of holding large clips - would require special training and special permitting. They should be limited to professions that need them, not suzy midwesterner who gets killed by a toddler reaching into her purse.

But there is a reason the NRA opposes even the gathering of statistics. They don't want a safer product. Dozens if not hundreds of accidental shootings could easily be avoided through proper design and application. But it is illegal to even research it.

Want a black powder musket? Just prove you are mentally fit. Want an AR-15, prove you can use one and have a valid reason to own it.

We don't let just anyone have grenades or bombs. Yet those are arms.

Fogdog said:
Accidental death and injury from a person's own firearm in the US is much higher than elsewhere. It's easy and quite natural to dismiss this as an avoidable mistake.

First, I challenge the assertion that personal gun ownership in this country as a right that shall not be abridged somehow protects freedom from tyranny. Maybe this made sense in the days of muskets.

Second, I challenge the assumption that the guns themselves are safe. They are not. Much could be done to make guns more safe by design.

Third, gun ownership should require regular safety re-certification to establish the gun owner understands protocol for safe gun ownership. Alongside of this severe penalties when a gun found not kept in a certified safe manner, including stripping the license to own a gun from the owner.

We have safety requirements for cars, why not guns? Handle a gun while drunk and get caught? Lose the right to own guns.
Click to expand...
 
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