All BS set aside CMH yields

febisfebi said:

First off I think you mean CDM, not cdl, and please don't take any of this as an attack on you personally.

I'm not sure what kind of MH you were using, I know a lot of people have tried various hps/mh combos, but that is very different when you are talking about a regular old SE HPS, and a regular old 600w MH. I can tell you right now though that a 1:1 ratio of SE HPS and standard MH (as you obviously can tell) is not a comparable lighting system to 3 CMH. The magic number is supposedly around 20% blue, which is why the 3k cmh is (arguably) the preferred all in one flowering light when it comes to CDM/CMH. So you were definitely overdoing it on the blue side, especially when you are talking about your GPW. As I described earlier your GPW is going to come from your HPS. The supplemental is going to raise your quality, and the extra power draw could hurt your overall GPW extensively. So in that case, using a full 600w of supplemental light is going to bring your GPW way down. in fact I would venture to speculate that even 2 315w 3k CMH would still beat out the 1200w combo in GPW. This is why @Merlin34 is able to run a commercial operation with around half the watts covering the same area, and getting better quality, which in his case makes a lot of sense, since the power draw of commercial operations is so much more of a problem at that scale, and quality dictates the crop value over quantity.

I am trying to compare performance of top quality DE HPS, which is a whole different animal than old SE HPS, both in spectrum and overall growing horsepower. Pairing those with Top quality Supplementals, at a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio. Now this could be anything from for example, a Hortilux blue (which I would personally not suggest for limiting cost or power draw, as it is lacking in both) or similar FS MH, there are other more efficient options in this family of full spec. Similarly, it could be a 4200k CMH, or in my example, an ushio opti-blue, or any of 10 other options available from different mfgs. I figure the opti-blue is a good solution, to the extra power draw, since it is more focused on the parts of the spectrum that the DE is lacking in, and has significant UVA output. But I am still testing all three of these types of supplementals before I make a final decision on which works best. But what I don't have to compare is a roomful of 3k CMH lights.

I just stumbled upon something new I wasn't aware of. I knew that Ushio started making CMH, but I didnt realize they were not just a clone of the Philips. look at the spectral chart of this bad boy. >95CRI: http://www.ushio.com/files/specs/hiluxgro-CMH5002537.pdf

Could potentially be a little lacking in the UVA dept, compared to some other options, but they only go down to 380 on the chart, so we dont really know for sure, but it looks like a steep drop at that point.

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please let us know the results of ur testing..
cdl=ceramic discharge lamp, cmh= ceramic metal halide, lec= light emitting ceramic,,all the same thing.. i got mine from boulder lamp and it sais cdl on the box.. anyways i like your thoughts, as its all about spectrum and tring to replicate the sun spec indoors..however ive grown with reg digital, and magnetic,hid for 20+ years ive never hit 1.5 gram per watt with hps alone or the hps/mh combo..im loving the results ive gotten with the ceramics, yield and potency

TheChemist77 said:

please let us know the results of ur testing..
cdl=ceramic discharge lamp, cmh= ceramic metal halide, lec= light emitting ceramic,,all the same thing.. i got mine from boulder lamp and it sais cdl on the box.. anyways i like your thoughts, as its all about spectrum and tring to replicate the sun spec indoors..however ive grown with reg digital, and magnetic,hid for 20+ years ive never hit 1.5 gram per watt with hps alone or the hps/mh combo..im loving the results ive gotten with the ceramics, yield and potency

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I have heard CMH, CDM, and Lec, but CDL is a new one to me. my bad. I wonder how many more different names they will come up with for the same thing.

Most people will have trouble hitting 1.5 gpw with any sort of SE HPS and non specialized MH. Its tech from 20 years ago. If it were possible for the average grower, then we would have heard about it, there is no question about that. But with the newer DE HPS, and some of the new fancy MH/ FS/ specialty supplemental lights out there, the results will undoubtedly be different. like I said, I know some people are getting 1.5 gpw wtih DE HPS alone. I'd like to find out what a supplemented DE HPS can do, and if it will stack up against CMH in yeild, and potency.

Theres actually a 630W dual CMH by grower's choice, has anyone heard or tried it?

they supposedly fit in any DE fixtures

febisfebi said:

First off I think you mean CDM, not cdl, and please don't take any of this as an attack on you personally.

I'm not sure what kind of MH you were using, I know a lot of people have tried various hps/mh combos, but that is very different when you are talking about a regular old SE HPS, and a regular old 600w MH. I can tell you right now though that a 1:1 ratio of SE HPS and standard MH (as you obviously can tell) is not a comparable lighting system to 3 CMH. The magic number is supposedly around 20% blue, which is why the 3k cmh is (arguably) the preferred all in one flowering light when it comes to CDM/CMH. So you were definitely overdoing it on the blue side, especially when you are talking about your GPW. As I described earlier your GPW is going to come from your HPS. The supplemental is going to raise your quality, and the extra power draw could hurt your overall GPW extensively. So in that case, using a full 600w of supplemental light is going to bring your GPW way down. in fact I would venture to speculate that even 2 315w 3k CMH would still beat out the 1200w combo in GPW. This is why @Merlin34 is able to run a commercial operation with around half the watts covering the same area, and getting better quality, which in his case makes a lot of sense, since the power draw of commercial operations is so much more of a problem at that scale, and quality dictates the crop value over quantity.

I am trying to compare performance of top quality DE HPS, which is a whole different animal than old SE HPS, both in spectrum and overall growing horsepower. Pairing those with Top quality Supplementals, at a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio. Now this could be anything from for example, a Hortilux blue (which I would personally not suggest for limiting cost or power draw, as it is lacking in both) or similar FS MH, there are other more efficient options in this family of full spec. Similarly, it could be a 4200k CMH, or in my example, an ushio opti-blue, or any of 10 other options available from different mfgs. I figure the opti-blue is a good solution, to the extra power draw, since it is more focused on the parts of the spectrum that the DE is lacking in, and has significant UVA output. But I am still testing all three of these types of supplementals before I make a final decision on which works best. But what I don't have to compare is a roomful of 3k CMH lights.

I just stumbled upon something new I wasn't aware of. I knew that Ushio started making CMH, but I didnt realize they were not just a clone of the Philips. look at the spectral chart of this bad boy. >95CRI: http://www.ushio.com/files/specs/hiluxgro-CMH5002537.pdf

Could potentially be a little lacking in the UVA dept, compared to some other options, but they only go down to 380 on the chart, so we dont really know for sure, but it looks like a steep drop at that point.

Click to expand...

That ushio lamp like the O rated philips has uv blocking and states it right on the base. Solis tek makes the only O rated 315 lamp without uv blocking. There are so many things going on in the HID world it will make your head spin.
Hortilux is doing some new things that should be interesting, white hps, DE.. Sunplix is making a ballast for the allstart
860.
http://solis-tek.com/solistek-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-3200k-lamp.html
http://eyehortilux.com/products/CHPS600-PerformanceSpecs.aspx
http://sunplix.com/

mstuhxjk said:

Theres actually a 630W dual CMH by grower's choice, has anyone heard or tried it?

they supposedly fit in any DE fixtures

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are you sure, that's really weird, because de sockets only have one wire and a clip that i wouldn't trust to hold a bulb from one end. How do you fire a bulb with one wire, thats what i wanna know, ahaha. I assume you need a special ballast anyways, and its not like DE hoods are cheap or anything. Unless of course they are talking about a double ended 630w CMH bulb, which I don't think you are, but correct me if i'm wrong.

dbkick said:

That ushio lamp like the O rated philips has uv blocking and states it right on the base. Solis tek makes the only O rated 315 lamp without uv blocking. There are so many things going on in the HID world it will make your head spin.
Hortilux is doing some new things that should be interesting, white hps, DE.. Sunplix is making a ballast for the allstart
860.
http://solis-tek.com/solistek-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-3200k-lamp.html
http://eyehortilux.com/products/CHPS600-PerformanceSpecs.aspx
http://sunplix.com/

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Virtually all bulbs outer shell is made of borosilicate glass which has uv blocking properties, but they are mostly for the harmful (to humans) UVB, and UVC that they block 90 some percent of. A good portion of UVA makes it through non specialized glass.
The only bulbs I know of that use different (quarts) glass for the outer shell, are DE bulbs, which essentially ditch the outer shell and just have a quarts glass outer layer, which is high quality glass that is usually reserved for the arc tubes and sleeves inside the Boro shell. aslo solis tek claims to have some "low iron" glass, that doesnt block uv so much, but from what I understand regular boro glass doesnt have iron in it either. so I was warned that may just be a marketing gimmick. whether or not they have a special glass that lets more UV(X) through than regular bulbs we would need a uv intensity tester to use on both bulbs at the same distances to compare, and I dont think anyone around here has one of those lying around unfortunately. i'v got 2 bulbs that clearly state they emit UVA down to 350nm, they both have regular boro glass. I know you cant beleive everything companies say, but I think its pretty clear that almost all HID bulbs emit some UVA, including HPS, MH, CMH, and other specialty bulbs. sure some of it is blocked, but peolple talk about UV as a whole, but what they are really talking about is (the harmful) UVB/C from which special blocking properties are required on regular light bulbs glass most of the time, so that carries over into our lights since mfg methods and tech is used pretty universally most types of light bulbs. UVA is a different story. Since it is not particularly harmful to anything but your eyes, and your not supposed to stare at a light bulb (hence lamp shades) they are not required to block it as significantly, so a lot more gets through.. UVB and UVA are both useful for plants, but serve different purposes.

I'm glad they are making some advances in HID lighting. Now that they are getting so much pressure from the idea of all theses HID users switching over to LED, now that there are at least some decent options for led, they are finally being forced to innovate, to keep us burning our low efficiency hid lights, and more importantly buying bulbs that have to be replaced constantly. I like the hortilux spectrum. it looks even more complete than DE. too bad they only make it in 600. but im not sure how useful the extra far red is, cause the plant curve takes nosedive after 650nm, but it looks like there is some usable light in there that DE lacks.. its about time. we havent had major advances in the past 20 years other than slight variations on old tech. CMH has been around for a while, even to the point where it has largely been phased out in exchange for led's in streetlights, cause they cant compete in terms of power draw, life, etc.

More wattages to come, the 600 se isnt even on shelves yet. Theyll be releasing de in October

Yup pretty damn sure.

Anyone has tried these??!!?!?!?!?!

I have a bunch of gavitas and would love to use these

http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-3k-630w-double-ended-cmh

http://www.growersc.com/#!630w-4k/m2wm4

HA, cool, two CMH arc tubes in a DE sleeve. I never would have thought of that but that's awesome. I though you meant they were putting two separate bulbs in a DE fixture, hence the 1 wire comment. What I would be worried about is its supposed to be 630, so what kind of ballast do you use. just a regular 600w they say.. and im assuming that would mean a magnetic 600w, because CMH arc tubes will rattle apart with high freq electronic ballasts, that are supplied with all but one kind of DE fixture from revolution micro, but its a 1kw.

Edit: yeah I highly doubt these will work on your gavita fixtures, unless its just the hood. you could use that with a different ballast. The question is which one. I assume 600w mag, unless they are making a square wave for it

I don't think you can just turn down a 1000w ballast to 600 and use a 600w bulb in it. I don't think that's how the dimming works on 1000w ballasts, but I've never tried any thing like that. They should be making a 630w low freq. square wave ballast to go with it. I wonder if they make it out of quartz glass, like other DE sleeves. I believe quartz is supposed to have less uv blocking properties than regular borosilicate, which would obviously be a selling point for this product. EExpensive though, oouuch almost $200 for the 4k. I wonder why its so much more. But all the CMH stuff is an expensive habit, with the exception of an allstart and mag ballast. and now were talking DE hoods to go with, but at least you get the output of 2 so you have less fixtures overall.

febisfebi said:

HA, cool, two CMH arc tubes in a DE sleeve. I never would have thought of that but that's awesome. I though you meant they were putting two separate bulbs in a DE fixture, hence the 1 wire comment. What I would be worried about is its supposed to be 630, so what kind of ballast do you use. just a regular 600w they say.. and im assuming that would mean a magnetic 600w, because CMH arc tubes will rattle apart with high freq electronic ballasts, that are supplied with all but one kind of DE fixture from revolution micro, but its a 1kw.

Edit: yeah I highly doubt these will work on your gavita fixtures, unless its just the hood. you could use that with a different ballast. The question is which one. I assume 600w mag, unless they are making a square wave for it

I don't think you can just turn down a 1000w ballast to 600 and use a 600w bulb in it. I don't think that's how the dimming works on 1000w ballasts, but I've never tried any thing like that. They should be making a 630w low freq. square wave ballast to go with it. I wonder if they make it out of quartz glass, like other DE sleeves. I believe quartz is supposed to have less uv blocking properties than regular borosilicate, which would obviously be a selling point for this product. EExpensive though, oouuch almost $200 for the 4k. I wonder why its so much more. But all the CMH stuff is an expensive habit, with the exception of an allstart and mag ballast. and now were talking DE hoods to go with, but at least you get the output of 2 so you have less fixtures overall.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. Hmmmm....interesting. Im actually talking to this guy that works for them, and he assures me that they work with any DE fixtures and ballast on high frequency.

If these could replace my 1000ws that would be so awesome. They are selling online for 138+ Tax, i can mess with that if it performs...

Anyone actually tried these bulbs?

mstuhxjk said:

Thanks for your reply. Hmmmm....interesting. Im actually talking to this guy that works for them, and he assures me that they work with any DE fixtures and ballast on high frequency.

If these could replace my 1000ws that would be so awesome. They are selling online for 138+ Tax, i can mess with that if it performs...

Anyone actually tried these bulbs?

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Edit: never mind, just saw the link above. Wonder if its 400v? If it is then its gavita compatible.

My nanolux 630 (2×315w's) are high frequency.

Tim Fox said:

what i am noticing ,, is this, all the new led start ups may go out of buisness if it turns out the cmh 315 performs better?

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I'm finding they make great supporting flower lights. I have supplemented my LED grows with CMH's getting pretty close to 1100 weights.

concentrate makers are keyed on LEC/CMH because of perceived boost in resins by the UV/UBB

but the CMH, I can bet bring color to the flower, for what ever reason. flower under HPS color wise look more softer vs the vivid stark colors I see when I run the CMH's you will still get more weight from the 1100's its has a great crisp frosty cyan tone in the jar. the CMH jars look full of color and contrast, albeit truth be told the nuggs are a bit smaller, just as frosty though.

mixing lights: is a practice I have always subscribed too. whatever lights they maybe.

ADD: I don't like the dual bulb CMH solutions, I don't like the built in ballast either.

I use lec/cmh's in my veg room and flowering support on my gavitas. I do notice that the plants that are closer to the lec lamps get a bit tighter buds and it might be a mindfuck but I swear they smell stronger and better. Noticed it more before I got the gavitas and was using the lec's as supplemental lighting with 1000w hps open air vert lamps, really brought out the colors which the gavitas now do.

bottletoke said:

Edit: never mind, just saw the link above. Wonder if its 400v? If it is then its gavita compatible.

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Just asked the dude works under the gavitas. Can run it on 660.

He told me someone is supercharging their galaxy's to 1150 and running a splitter with them.
so one 1000w ballast, running two 630W CMH with two separate hoods

Can anyone confirm this!?!?!?!? This is making me so excited lol

mstuhxjk said:

Just asked the dude works under the gavitas. Can run it on 660.

He told me someone is supercharging their galaxy's to 1150 and running a splitter with them.
so one 1000w ballast, running two 630W CMH with two separate hoods

Can anyone confirm this!?!?!?!? This is making me so excited lol

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Problem with this is if one lamp dies the other lamp is going to get the full 1150 and the last thing you want is a cmh exploding cuz your gonna have yourself a fire. If your gonna try it you better fuse each lamp to its max capacity.

bottletoke said:

Problem with this is if one lamp dies the other lamp is going to get the full 1150 and the last thing you want is a cmh exploding cuz your gonna have yourself a fire. If your gonna try it you better fuse each lamp to its max capacity.

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if one lamp dies the circuit is broken, assuming you wire them in series, which you would need to split the voltage I think.
When the circuit is broken it has the effect of powering the other bulb down. ballast would be running still, but nothing to draw power from the other end, may make it jump into super low power save mode, if you have a newer electronic ballast auto sensing ballast, that is, which most are, but you never know, cause they don't like to tell you the things you need most, and there is usually some sort of monetary reasoning behind this, they figure if they keep us ignorant, then they can come up with new flashy names for things as they pull wool out from over our eyes just enough to have their new product launch successful, and then keep with the program.

Soo I think the warning should be something like: Do not wire in parallel if you try this. It probably wont even work, but like @bottletoke said it could be dangerous. We are not talking about wiring led's here, this could cause a real fire.
I still recommend using a correct fuse for each bulb separately wired right before the bulb on the positive wire in your series circuit

febisfebi said:

if one lamp dies the circuit is broken, assuming you wire them in series, which you would need to split the voltage I think.
When the circuit is broken it has the effect of powering the other bulb down. ballast would be running still, but nothing to draw power from the other end, may make it jump into super low power save mode, if you have a newer electronic ballast auto sensing ballast, that is, which most are, but you never know, cause they don't like to tell you the things you need most, and there is usually some sort of monetary reasoning behind this, they figure if they keep us ignorant, then they can come up with new flashy names for things as they pull wool out from over our eyes just enough to have their new product launch successful, and then keep with the program.

Soo I think the warning should be something like: Do not wire in parallel if you try this. It probably wont even work, but like @bottletoke said it could be dangerous. We are not talking about wiring led's here, this could cause a real fire.
I still recommend using a correct fuse for each bulb separately wired right before the bulb on the positive wire in your series circuit

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I'm an electrician with a graduate diploma in electrical technology. you wouldn't wire this in series. Its an inductive circuit which requires constant voltage. A series circuit is only good on resistive loads where current is constant and the voltage drop doesn't matter.
Edit: not trying to be a dick, just saying it won't work in series.

mstuhxjk said:

Yup pretty damn sure.

Anyone has tried these??!!?!?!?!?!

I have a bunch of gavitas and would love to use these

http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-3k-630w-double-ended-cmh

http://www.growersc.com/#!630w-4k/m2wm4

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I have these.. only ran testing so far.. can't wait to get a run in with these babies...i was hoping no-one caught on to fast

coughphee.connoiseur said:

I have these.. only ran testing so far.. can't wait to get a run in with these babies...i was hoping no-one caught on to fast

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If you dont mind me asking...where did you get them? i went to my local store and they have never heard of them. im based in Norcal also.

How long have you tested them for? how are they looking??? Sorry for all these questions, im just really interested in getting some of these.

I have only ran some par testing and basic hand to heat test vs reg D/E ran at the same currents, voltage, watts/% etc.