Al B. FAQt

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ceestyle

Well-Known Member
Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to hyptonic conditions which cause cell lycis with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients. This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections.
Although they can't spell, apparently what they're trying to say is that having super-low concentrations of ions outside the cell walls (hypertonicity) can create a great enough osmotic pressure across the wall to rupture (lyse) it. This would leave it more vulnerable to bacterial or fungal infections.

Not sure how exactly their product would avoid that - or that it does, just sayin.

None of that is really relevant if you don't believe in preharvest flushing anyway.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Thanks for the insight.

Not sure how exactly their product would avoid that - or that it does, just sayin.
Fair enough.

Do excuse my scepticism, but magic sauce makers have been known to invent problems which they claim their sauces will solve.

However the mechanism works, the question then is begged, if their product removes ionic compounds (aka nute salts) from the medium and it is the absence of the same which may cause damage, exactly why would one do such a thing? If this is a notable, common, truly harmful and independently verified effect for those who do flush plants, why not flush with a weak nutrient solution to assure one never has a super-low concentration of ionic compounds?
 

CALIGIRL

Well-Known Member
Hey ABF, My plants are still growing! after 4 weeks of flower there all 4ft+ now.
I was thinking would it be possible that they are growing so tall because i water them alot? Right now they are in hydroton rocks and i water 8x a day but they seem like it, or atleast not mind it.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Hey ABF, My plants are still growing! after 4 weeks of flower there all 4ft+ now.
I was thinking would it be possible that they are growing so tall because i water them alot? Right now they are in hydroton rocks and i water 8x a day but they seem like it, or atleast not mind it.
Well, a couple things are happening here. Your temps were high early on, triggering some stretchiness, plus they were in their first 4wks of flowering, while veg habit is still tapering off.

If you've sorted the temp probs, they ought to slow their vertical height gain. In wk4 of flowering, the plants will be switched almost fully to flowering mode and out of veg mode. Vert height gains should be all but stopped this week or soon into next for you.

Pellets are great because they have lots of airspace and allow you to flood often. Watering often in a medium which can tolerate it won't contribute to stretch. All that's happening there is you are bathing the roots with freshly oxygenated nute solution more often, which makes sure that anything the plant needs, it's getting. The growth of the plant will be maximised if it has a ready supply of oxygenated nutes, but the habit is mainly controlled by factors such as room temp and photoperiod.

Starving the plant for water or nutes won't alter the growth habit. It'll just give you a wilty or nute deficient plant. Getting temps right will sort it out.
 

stucklikechuck

Well-Known Member
thanks for all your help al!!!! alas i have another question: how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the insight.

Fair enough.

Do excuse my scepticism, but magic sauce makers have been known to invent problems which they claim their sauces will solve.

However the mechanism works, the question then is begged, if their product removes ionic compounds (aka nute salts) from the medium and it is the absence of the same which may cause damage, exactly why would one do such a thing? If this is a notable, common, truly harmful and independently verified effect for those who do flush plants, why not flush with a weak nutrient solution to assure one never has a super-low concentration of ionic compounds?
As you know from experience - and this is certainly not limited to gardening - your skepticism is certainly warranted. Even if what they professed as logic does in fact hold some scientific merit, the fact that they used the terms without defining them or explaining them to "the layman" means they were using them for effect. Like when you watch a movie and someone whips out "newtonian physics" in an effort to wow the audience into thinking they're smart.

My assumption would be that the approach you alluded to is what an ideally designed flushing solution would do: create a lower concentration outside the cell wall without overdoing it. Presumably, you could do this with a well-calibrated nutrient solution, even stepping down gradually to clean water. I imagine that you could also put some snake oil in there that selectively sucks out the nute components you'd like to get rid of. Who knows.

In any case, I don't hear people screaming about bacterial infections in week 9 of flower, so it doesn't seem to be a predominant problem. On the other hand, if cell repair hoards resources that should go into fatter nuggies, that is a problem.

As with any product, I think about what I would do if I were to market a product that actually worked: demonstrate that it works. I know it's not favorable just yet to post a side-by-side on the plants we love to grow, but give me something. I will not take someone else's word for it unless they can SHOW ME that it works, and side-by-side. None of this "I switched to XXX super nova killer buzz bloom and the buds totally fattened up a week later" shit that I see all too often. You can count me a skeptic too ...
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.
I haven't run an op in RW slabs, rather pots stuffed fully with RW for quite a while, but I'd actually think that 3x/d * 15m might be a bit on the high side. You're the best judge, are the slabs remaining saturated up to the next watering or are they losing a significant amount of water weight by flood time? If you have mature, vigorously growing SoG sized plants, they'll suck up quite a lot, perhaps a litre or more each per day. More can be lost to direct evaporation from the slab. If the slabs are exposed to direct strong light and a lot of air motion, evaporation loss will increase.

RW is fibrous and has a strong wicking action up to the saturation point. I can't see the need to flood the material for long stretches. I bet the slab is saturated if only flooded to 1/4 of its height for a minute or so. Observe the top surface of the material when flooding. You'll be able to see water wicked to the upper surface. Stop your pump at that amount of time. The material is then saturated and won't pick up any more.

If the roots are encased in rockwool, there's no benefit to flooding longer or more often than it takes to saturate the material. If RW is still saturated from the last flooding, adding more water won't displace the 'old' water. The plant has to take it out or it has to evaporate. In RW, you shouldn't give more water until until a significant amount of water from the last flood is used by the plant or evaporated.

Pellets, on the other hand, have comparatively huge air gaps between them and don't retain as much water, most drains out when the pump shuts off. There's a lot more direct exposure to freshly oxygenated nute soln with each flood in pellets for this reason.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
As with any product, I think about what I would do if I were to market a product that actually worked: demonstrate that it works. I know it's not favorable just yet to post a side-by-side on the plants we love to grow, but give me something. I will not take someone else's word for it unless they can SHOW ME that it works, and side-by-side.
And fucking HOW.

The side by side thing is generally difficult for the end-user to do, but if done right with a significant number of test samples and accurately controlled conds, really tells the tale.

None of this "I switched to XXX super nova killer buzz bloom and the buds totally fattened up a week later" shit that I see all too often. You can count me a skeptic too ...
See, this is where a lot of growers fall down. They simply get confused as to causes and effects and a number are not familiar with scientific method for controlling variables. Performance differences between serial batches where changes like a new magic sauce have been made can owe to many other variables. Few home grow ops have dead-steady conditions 24/7/365. Only side-by-side comparisons can be trusted.
 

gvega187

Well-Known Member
3x/day (or more) for larger, vigorously growing plants (wk3 of flowering & after), 2x/day for younger plants.



It's relatively new, been in the shops for about 18 mos. Made in Australia, easily available here.

If in the USA:
okay so I have decided that this fytocell stuff is impossible for me to obtain in the US.

are there any other media i could use that would not saturate for as long? (note i hate pebbles 2 & I am trying to duplicate your flood-drain op)
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Yeah, try perlite. Soak it well before plugging plants in it. Plug the drain holes in your pots with a layer of tightly packed RW floc. Should be able to handle 3x/day watering, perhaps more with more mature plants, post wk4.
 

Kaosisglobal

Well-Known Member
You don't need a light mover in a space that small.

Light movers are not a good thing, anyway. It's better to have a stationary lamp that suits the size of the space you're trying to light rather than trying to spread light out over an area that is really too large for that particular lamp.

With movers, you have a new figure to contemplate; lux-hours (lumens per sq metre per hour). When a mover has the lamp over one end of the grow, it's not over the other. You have to derate the amount of light the plants are getting owing to the mover having the light elsewhere for a certain amount of time.

Linear light movers also do not distribute light evenly. Plants in the middle of the traverse get more light than plants on the ends. Rotary light movers don't have this problem, but they do need 'slipper ring' connections to conduct electricity to the lamp from the ballast, which can be troublesome.

Also, light movers are mechanically complex. I'm pretty handy with electronics and welding/metalwork and even I would not attempt to DIY one.
I have a shitty reflector, how would you recommend mounting it? I would like to get it in, I know it will add to my growth. So you think it will get corner to corner, stationary? I also wanted to build another box square 3x3 4x4 for that light and then a 600HPS when I could buy it, just for budding and keeping the first box only for veg. If the 400 is in bud I have the floros and when I get a 600W then the 400 is permenant in the Veg box. Cause I do see the growth difference using floros. I will take a pic of that light and put it in my journal. I am hittin the sack soon, so tomorrow for the pic. What do you think is my best next investment aside from nutes I need? (Cool Tube?)
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
I have a shitty reflector, how would you recommend mounting it?
First, remove the shit. ;)

I would like to get it in, I know it will add to my growth.
Glad you're sure, what sort of reflector is it? Size? Pics are good.

So you think it will get corner to corner, stationary?
Depends on the light power & reflector size/shape. A reasonably large batwing ref will cover it with a 400 and you can make your own batwing to suit pretty easily.


I also wanted to build another box square 3x3 4x4 for that light and then a 600HPS when I could buy it, just for budding and keeping the first box only for veg. If the 400 is in bud I have the floros and when I get a 600W then the 400 is permenant in the Veg box.
You do need separate veg & flower areas for SoG, however, the floorspace reqs for vegging mums for SoG are much less than by other method which rely on vegging a plant post the clones setting root.

Cause I do see the growth difference using floros.
Well, you might. ;)

I will take a pic of that light and put it in my journal. I am hittin the sack soon, so tomorrow for the pic.
ok

What do you think is my best next investment aside from nutes I need? (Cool Tube?)
Yep, cooltube, a 150mm axial blower and some 150mm aluminium range hood duct. :)
 

potroast

Uses the Rollitup profile
thanks for all your help al!!!! alas i have another question: how many times should i flood and drain per day and how long should i flood for? i am using 6 inch rockwool slabs at the moment and currently feeding 3x a day and flooding for 15 mnutes.

I use 8-inch slabs in a tray made for them. I flood those trays from the bottom, to about 2/3 up the slabs. Once a day is enough, twice would be OK, and even every other day would work, those things hold a lot and stay wet. I cover my slabs with panda plastic though.

What I've found is that the slabs tend to build up nutrient levels within, so regular flushing is good, and I use Clearex. The bottle says the ingredients are a couple of sugars, so when I saw a Botanicare booth at a show 5 years ago I asked them if it was just sugar water. Of course they said no, that it contained many other ingredients, they mentioned the osmotic pressure, and also that it unlocked any nutrient compounds that are unavailable to the plant. Anyway, I still use the stuff, I figured that the sugars dissolved the salts.


HTH :mrgreen:
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
What I've found is that the slabs tend to build up nutrient levels within, so regular flushing is good, and I use Clearex.
Funny you should mention Clearex, I was just talking about the stuff a page or so back, if you missed the luvfest. ;)

The bottle says the ingredients are a couple of sugars, so when I saw a Botanicare booth at a show 5 years ago I asked them if it was just sugar water. Of course they said no, that it contained many other ingredients, they mentioned the osmotic pressure, and also that it unlocked any nutrient compounds that are unavailable to the plant. Anyway, I still use the stuff, I figured that the sugars dissolved the salts.
If the stuff has sugars in it, that's plenty of reason, certainly for me, to not put it in a hydro system at all, on the grounds that they're food for pathogens, which I don't want in my system and am trying actively to kill with H2O2. Beyond that, sugars are not solvents for anything, much less for residual nutrient salts. Far as I can tell, the stuff can't do anything that flushing with a weak solution of nutes couldn't, if one were seeking to prevent damage from ionic compunds imbalance across the root barrier.

I think ceestyle has it spot on when he says that the conditions that this osmotic pressure imbalance are supposed to cause, bacterial and fungal infections due to damaged cell walls, don't seem common in week 9 amongst those growers who are flushing for a week on plain water. Given the sugar content of Clearex, it seems likely that it actually could contribute to the conditions it claims to prevent.

potster, I know what you're saying about nute salts accumulating on rockwool. It has a strong wicking action which carries more water to the location where it has been voided from, either the rootzone or the top surface of the media. When it does so, it carries along more nute salts. In the rootzone, nutes are picked up by the roots. On the medium's surface, salts are left behind and accumulate when the water evaporates. This effect is highly localised, only to the very top surface layer of the medium. Salts don't generally accumulate deep in a mass of the medium, rather only on the top surface, where nothing is taking them away.

One way to avoid the crust of nute salts is to never allow the upper surface of the media to be wetted. This may not be practical with RW slabs due to their size and more linearly fibrous nature than RW floc, which doesn't wick as strongly and directly as does slab/cube RW. When I was using pots packed with RW floc only, I packed my pots deeply and watered only from the bottom so the top surface layer, about the top inch, never was wet. This meant there was no nute solution ever exposed directly to air on the top surface of the medium; voilà, no more nute salt crust.

However, since switching to Fytocell, which must be saturated fully from top to bottom before use, the nute salt crust is back on my media tops. However, since Fytocell is stark snow white, the salts on the surface are less visible- and don't bother me as much. :D The plants sure don't care.

Mind you, I suspect they WOULD care if I top flushed a bunch of accumulated salts from the surface down into the rootzone and didn't manage to leach them fully from the rootzone. It'd be a massive dose of nutes- that very likely would induce a burn. SO, what do I do about it? NOTHING! :lol: I just leave it be.
 

LostInSpace...

Well-Known Member
Stable clonebox temp at about 30C as well as a heat mat really speed things along. I get consistent 100% strikes in about 7 days in RW cubes by tightly controlling conditions.
Hey mate can you confirm the air temp and heat mat temps in your clonebox for me?
 

LostInSpace...

Well-Known Member
Yeah I thought I saw u write somewhere else air temps @ 26C, but now im confused.
I'm having trouble cloning so i'm gonna copy you :) Got me thermostat hooked but not sure where to set it, got me heating pad and not sure where to set it. Any help appreciated...
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
ah, the flowering area runs 25C +/- 1C or 24-26C.

The clonebox air temp runs about 28-30C and my heat mat is fixed temp at 30C.
 

Kaosisglobal

Well-Known Member
First, remove the shit. ;)



Glad you're sure, what sort of reflector is it? Size? Pics are good.


Depends on the light power & reflector size/shape. A reasonably large batwing ref will cover it with a 400 and you can make your own batwing to suit pretty easily.




You do need separate veg & flower areas for SoG, however, the floorspace reqs for vegging mums for SoG are much less than by other method which rely on vegging a plant post the clones setting root.



Well, you might. ;)



ok



Yep, cooltube, a 150mm axial blower and some 150mm aluminium range hood duct. :)
It is a batwing, bout 131/2in. long. The HTG Supply 400W package. I've had it for a while now. When I have money, I do want to step up to a 600W.

If you look at the pic good, the one side of the reflector broke off during my first move and gave me uneven light last run. So first things first if I use it with that reflector is the other side has to come off, so I can cast rectangular?

Of course you recommend seperate ducting, and I would to. But for a step up at a time, Do you think it is ok to duct to the 6in. duct there now and leave the other end open to intake grow smell n heat?
 

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