Afganistan Collapse

CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
You asked the question, I answered it. And instead of actually talking about anything I wrote, you troll me.
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My question was about Biden’s handling of the fallout from the situation not the situation itself.

Instead of doubling down and getting defensive, he should have just admitted that they misjudged the Taliban’s response.

Obviously, you don’t feel the same. Thanks for answering.
 
injinji

injinji

Well-Known Member
I heard on NPR about one guy who worked with the army. He started his paperwork five years ago. President Joe Rob fucked the pooch on this one. But he was not alone.
 
CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
HGCC said:
I dont think anyone could handle this well and it's going about the same as it would under anybody. We shouldn't have gone, couldn't win, etc. It was a waste of life, money, etc.

It's the same outcome every single time. The only way you win is to kill every single person. Otherwise you have an entire generation of people where some invading force killed their parents. They aren't going to stop waging war against occupying forces, tbh they shouldn't. You don't beat them into submission, at best you make them take a break, then back to it.

I think the best we could do would be to force them to allow refugees out. You can win a battle or force an action, but not the war.
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Sure, maybe.

Again, my question was about the handling of the fallout, not the situation itself.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
My question was about Biden’s handling of the fallout from the situation not the situation itself.
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I reread what you wrote and pretty sure that I answered it in my first sentence.
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Id rather him be irritated with people asking him the questions to get him to give them the soundbite they are looking for nonstop when the alternative is that more people would die because he ran his mouth like the last guy.

I guess you missed that part?

CunningCanuk said:
Instead of doubling down and getting defensive, he should have just admitted that they misjudged the Taliban’s response.

Obviously, you don’t feel the same. Thanks for answering.
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I guess if you actually watched the response of Milley you would have actually understood that was exactly what they said. They did not have any reason to think that the Taliban would gain back their power in 11 days.

So instead of deciding for yourself what it is that I 'feel', maybe just reread what I wrote?

Bu no worries about answering, it is just a bummer that you felt you needed to troll me instead of trying to get what I was saying. But it is early, so maybe you are just being grumpy.
 
HGCC

HGCC

Well-Known Member
I guess I am not sure, yeah the fallout could have been handled better, but I am not sure how. Biden isn't a great speaker/messenger on stuff, I think that has been a big failing. The pullout could have been slower, but who knows if that would have made it more orderly. They have just been waiting out the US for quite a while.

Edit: I would have to disagree with that general or whatever, like a Trumper arguing medicine lol, but it seems bizarre that they wouldn't expect the taliban to just immediately roll back in.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I am willing to admit that I do not know enough about the behind the scenes intelligence that decisions are being made with. But yeah after watching General Milley's explanation of the 2nd airport, and the situation of the troops, it sounds like it came down to escalating or continuing the withdraw with what they had. I agree with not escalating.




Maybe because we are still in a online war where the nonstop shit talking and goldfish-esque memory people have about everything has led to people thinking shit like blowing themselves up in a car bomb in our capital?

Trump stuffed as many trolls as he could throughout our executive branch and who knows what shit Biden is dealing with to try to keep our nation safe while the Republicans are actively pushing people into being radicalized by attacking everything and anything Biden of Democrats do.

And this steady bitching was the same as it was under Obama when they were starting the Tea Party bullshit, and it is worth being defensive about.
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i completely agree with you; i've been sick to my stomach with narrative..changing gears..just who would the independents be happy with? Righteous Mike who's a rightie? yeah that's the ticket..there's a lot of voting righties out there with a new label.

people have a very short memory which is why we need to keep reminding about this and bring 1/6 to the forefront.
 
CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I reread what you wrote and pretty sure that I answered it in my first sentence.

Id rather him be irritated with people asking him the questions to get him to give them the soundbite they are looking for nonstop when the alternative is that more people would die because he ran his mouth like the last guy.

I guess you missed that part?


I guess if you actually watched the response of Milley you would have actually understood that was exactly what they said. They did not have any reason to think that the Taliban would gain back their power in 11 days.

So instead of deciding for yourself what it is that I 'feel', maybe just reread what I wrote?

Bu no worries about answering, it is just a bummer that you felt you needed to troll me instead of trying to get what I was saying. But it is early, so maybe you are just being grumpy.
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There are reports that the State Department was warned months ago to start getting people out now, so, somebody saw the potential for disaster. We don’t know everything but from early reports it looks like it could have been handled better.

My point was if Biden came out in the address the other night and said we miscalculated, we made errors I would have respected him more.

It doesn’t mean I don’t respect him now. I still do.

Yes, I could just be grumpy this morning and if so, I apologize for appearing to troll you. It wasn’t my intention.
 
CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
i completely agree with you; i've been sick to my stomach with narrative..changing gears..just who would the independents be happy with? Righteous Mike who's a rightie? yeah that's the ticket..there's a lot of voting righties out there with a new label.

people have a very short memory which is why we need to keep reminding about this and bring 1/6 to the forefront.
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This just sounds like nonsense to me.

Maybe I am just grumpy this morning.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
There are reports that the State Department was warned months ago to start getting people out now, so, somebody saw the potential for disaster. We don’t know everything but from early reports it looks like it could have been handled better.
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I agree that hindsight will show many ways things could have been done better.

But Biden did come out in April and warned everyone in the world that they would be withdrawing the troops by Sept 111th. Im not sure who or why people in our nations stuck around, but that seems like a lot of warning that people did not heed.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/Screen Shot 2021-08-20 at 10.44.47 AM.png


CunningCanuk said:
My point was if Biden came out in the address the other night and said we miscalculated, we made errors I would have respected him more.
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Im not sure if I saw the press conference you are referring to man, if you want to post it I will watch it and see what it is you are saying better.

But from what I have seen, I am not sure he has not said that, maybe not every single time the press wants to ask him to say he fucked up like some kind of abusive relationship.

CunningCanuk said:
It doesn’t mean I don’t respect him now. I still do.

Yes, I could just be grumpy this morning and if so, I apologize for appearing to troll you. It wasn’t my intention.
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Right on and no worries from my end, and I didn't mean to troll you if I did either.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
This just sounds like nonsense to me.

Maybe I am just grumpy this morning.
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we will no longer send our sons and daughters to defend those who won't defend themselves.

i gave you a 'sad' because you are being grumpy. it was a response regarding two subjects- which is why i said changing gears..most of us have enough political knowledge we don't have to spell everything out. you should already get the gist and if not i'll expand if you ask.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
There are reports that the State Department was warned months ago to start getting people out now, so, somebody saw the potential for disaster. We don’t know everything but from early reports it looks like it could have been handled better.

My point was if Biden came out in the address the other night and said we miscalculated, we made errors I would have respected him more.

It doesn’t mean I don’t respect him now. I still do.

Yes, I could just be grumpy this morning and if so, I apologize for appearing to troll you. It wasn’t my intention.
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this was a Trump deal 'nuff said?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
Sure, maybe.

Again, my question was about the handling of the fallout, not the situation itself.
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It is too soon for us to tell you whether or not the situation was handled well or totally botched. I am dissatisfied with the developing hostage situation and not happy to hear Biden say he was surprised by how quickly the US-installed Afghan government fell. Because the situation is dynamic and still developing, this is more like a mid-term score rather than a final.

I agree with Biden that it was past time for the US to leave and not shocked at the apparent suddenness with which it happened, so, he gets a B for making the decision to go and go fast. He is docked for his earlier support for the occupation. I can't fault him for taking relatively quick action during the first half of his first year in office. So, give him a B.

For botching the exit for US and Afghani citizens who he agreed should get a visa to the US (not sure if that's the final destination or not), he gets an F

For his handling of the media, a B. I think he has been straightforward with the public and the story he tells makes him look weak. Then again we did hold a weak hand, so appearing weak is a statement of fact, not some sort of slip up.

Overall, two Bs and and F. So, maybe I give Biden a C or C- for this. Not a failure and not a complete success. But I'm glad the US is on the path to ending our military occupation of Afghanistan. He's sort of on probation right now.

Biden's success or failure with the US will be determined by how well he handles the end days of the epidemic and the overall sense of financial well being of voters, come Nov. 2022. It's cold to say but this isn't all that important to US voters.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
This is why I push back. This is the inevitable troll that was set up on Biden. And if the Republicans are able to win, they will impeach Biden, just like they would have Clinton if she won for their 'Benghazi' bullshit trolling.

https://www.rawstory.com/republicans-afghanistan-withdrawal-benghazi-hearings/
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Democrats have already said that they intend to investigate the role of the former Donald Trump administration and current Joe Biden administration in the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. But Republicans announced that if they take back the House and Senate they will give Biden's withdrawal the Benghazi treatment, CNN reported.

The bombing of the embassy in Benghazi was probed ten different times with 33 hearings, costing taxpayers over $7 million. Then House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy linked the GOP probe of Benghazi to a dip in Hillary Clinton's 2016 poll numbers.

"But we put together a Benghazi special committee. A select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she's untrustable. But no one would have known that any of that had happened had we not fought to make that happen," said McCarthy.

"This makes Benghazi look like a much smaller issue," Rep. Mike Johnson (R-LA) told CNN. "This may be one of the worst and most consequential foreign policy and national security disasters in our history. There will be a lot of answers to seek and questions to be answered, and I think it will be a top priority."

"After the disastrous events in Afghanistan, we must confront a serious question: Is Joe Biden capable of discharging the duties of his office or has time come to exercise the provisions of the 25th Amendment?" tweeted Sen. Rick Scott (R-FL), who is up for reelection in 2024.

"I think this is way worse than Benghazi. Without a doubt," claimed Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI), who is seeking reelection next year.

If Democrats beat the GOP to the investigation, they will likely uncover interviews with Trump's former Secretaries of Defense, both of whom have said that the agreement with the Taliban was never going to work or, according to Chris Miller, was a "play."

According to Miller, "many Trump administration officials expected that the United States would be able to broker a new shared government in Afghanistan composed primarily of Taliban officials. The new government would then permit U.S. forces to remain in country to support the Afghan military and fight terrorist elements." That deal never happened, but Miller said that the May 1 withdrawal was never actually going to be met because of the deal Trump wanted with the Taliban.

Esper told CNN International this week that Trump "undermined the agreement" and he warned without a slower withdrawal "we would see a number of things play out, which are unfolding right now in many ways." Trump moved forward anyway, going so far as to say that he wanted all Afghan troops home by Christmas 2020.

Read the full CNN.com report here.
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CunningCanuk

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
It is too soon for us to tell you whether or not the situation was handled well or totally botched. I am dissatisfied with the developing hostage situation and not happy to hear Biden say he was surprised by how quickly the US-installed Afghan government fell. Because the situation is dynamic and still developing, this is more like a mid-term score rather than a final.

I agree with Biden that it was past time for the US to leave and not shocked at the apparent suddenness with which it happened, so, he gets a B for making the decision to go and go fast. He is docked for his earlier support for the occupation. I can't fault him for taking relatively quick action during the first half of his first year in office. So, give him a B.

For botching the exit for US and Afghani citizens who he agreed should get a visa to the US (not sure if that's the final destination or not), he gets an F

For his handling of the media, a B. I think he has been straightforward with the public and the story he tells makes him look weak. Then again we did hold a weak hand, so appearing weak is a statement of fact, not some sort of slip up.

Overall, two Bs and and F. So, maybe I give Biden a C or C- for this. Not a failure and not a complete success. But I'm glad the US is on the path to ending our military occupation of Afghanistan. He's sort of on probation right now.

Biden's success or failure with the US will be determined by how well he handles the end days of the epidemic and the overall sense of financial well being of voters, come Nov. 2022. It's cold to say but this isn't all that important to US voters.
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Good post fogdog. I don’t agree with everything here but most of it and I agree, it probably won’t be much of an issue in 2022.
 
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