Aero pump failures.

Ok guys. I love lurking here and this is my first post.

The issue I'm having is with my pondmaster pumps I'm using for my aero.

I'm running a short cycle (1/5) and the impellers keep failing. I use a filter and all that jazz, but I can't take hits like this. Every time it fails it brings my new cuttings closer to death.

I have two 350's and one 500. The 500 seems to like to fail quite a bit. Twice in as many weeks. Out of the 350's, only one has failed in 6 months. The impeller key just breaks off.

Is there a pump out there that can stand up to short cycles? I really hate to mothball these 3 pumps, but I can't rely on them. Such a waste of money!

I will go to my shop tomorrow since they are closed today and see what they can do for me. In the mean time, you all can help me out with some suggestions.

: )

Aquarium and pond pumps are made to run continuous not intermittant. Just use two solenoid valves or a divertor valve so the pump is always running. When the water is not running to the sprayers it is simply just diverted straight back to the reservoir. Every thime you turn a pump on you put tremendous stress on the pump blades and the shaft, shaft key etc. You also strike a new arc on your armature contact that leaves an insulating layer of carbon. This will also eventually cause a problem. Solenoid valves are available quite cheaply on Ebay. Buy either plastic or stainless steel valves for long life.

fatman7574 said:

Aquarium and pond pumps are made to run continuous not intermittant. Just use two solenoid valves or a divertor valve so the pump is always running. When the water is not running to the sprayers it is simply just diverted straight back to the reservoir. Every thime you turn a pump on you put tremendous stress on the pump blades and the shaft, shaft key etc. You also strike a new arc on your armature contact that leaves an insulating layer of carbon. This will also eventually cause a problem. Solenoid valves are available quite cheaply on Ebay. Buy either plastic or stainless steel valves for long life.

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That's what I was thinking. The only reason that popped into my head is because of the solenoid valves used on paintball guns. What kind of solenoids would I use? Link to some pictures / prices / specs?

Ideally I would want something which is fully submersible, 120v plug in, one in and two out, 1/2" NPT female threaded.

totallytoastin said:

That's what I was thinking. The only reason that popped into my head is because of the solenoid valves used on paintball guns. What kind of solenoids would I use? Link to some pictures / prices / specs?

Ideally I would want something which is fully submersible, 120v plug in, one in and two out, 1/2" NPT female threaded.

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What he said. I'm in the same boat.

http://www.omega.ca/shop/pptsc.asp?ref=SV900&Nav=grej05

This would work great, but the $660 price tag is a bit much. Might as well buy new pumps.

Does anyone know something that would work like this but isn't a rip off?

I don't know of any that are submersible. I would just have them outside attached to a Tee fitting. One would be the inlet arm and the other two Tee arms would have a solenoid. One would be normally open and the other normally closed. IE NO or NC. There are a huge number of them on ebay. Plastic ones are inert to the fertilizer salts. Second choice is stainless steel and third choice is the brass.

Most people use a low enough pressure pump so the cheap plastic solenoids work fine. Top of the line are Hayward or Plastomatic, but they are very far from cheap. The small 1/4 plastic valves are cheap enough some people use small tubing and the small plastic valves for the feed line control and a single large valve for the return/divertor valve. It all really depends what your systems needs are in regard to the number of mister/sprayers and the flow they require. By contacting the seller he will sell in larger numbers cheaper. I paid $10 each by purchasing 10 at once. You could use a seperate solenoid valve for each and every mister and still pay less that you would for some of the larger plastic valves like Hayward or Plastomatic if bought at retail prices. Forget about looking at valves from places like Cole-Parmer or Omega etc. Just keep cruising eBay or Craigs etc.

fatman7574 said:

I don't know of any that are submersible. I would just have them outside attached to a Tee fitting. One would be the inlet arm and the other two Tee arms would have a solenoid. One would be normally open and the other normally closed. IE NO or NC. There are a huge number of them on ebay. Plastic ones are inert to the fertilizer salts. Second choice is stainless steel and third choice is the brass.

Most people use a low enough pressure pump so the cheap plastic solenoids work fine. Top of the line are Hayward or Plastomatic, but they are very far from cheap. The small 1/4 plastic valves are cheap enough some people use small tubing and the small plastic valves for the feed line control and a single large valve for the return/divertor valve. It all really depends what your systems needs are in regard to the number of mister/sprayers and the flow they require. By contacting the seller he will sell in larger numbers cheaper. I paid $10 each by purchasing 10 at once. You could use a seperate solenoid valve for each and every mister and still pay less that you would for some of the larger plastic valves like Hayward or Plastomatic if bought at retail prices. Forget about looking at valves from places like Cole-Parmer or Omega etc. Just keep cruising eBay or Craigs etc.

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ideally i would want the valve inline with the mister assembly.

(pump)-->(valve)-->(mister assembly)

so for each res, i would only use one valve for the whole unit. since all of the valves i saw on ebay are two way, would it be safe to run the pump with the output fully blocked off? ideally i would use a 3 way and have it bypassing all the time. i see your design uses two noids to make a 3 way for bypassing, but what if i didnt do any bypassing?

Ideally if you have a pump with say a 3/4" discharge you use a 1" solenoid valve on a Tee fitting so that when you do not want water flow to the sprayers you activate the solenoid and the water will take the path of least restsitance and flow back to the reservoir rather than to the sprayers. However some water will usually still make it to the sprayers so they will drip. Therefore some people who do not like the drip add a second solenoid as it is cheaper than buying a divertor solenoid. Many three way solenoids either are totally closed at both exits or open at both outlets and feed through the third. So really they are like using a 2 way valve with a Y fitting at the exit. Not much help.

A divertor valve has both a normally open and a normally closed exit on the same valve. It also has a single inlet. They are expensive valves however. The cheap alternative is using two 2 way valves, one normally open and one normally closed They are supplied power by the same timer output. When you supply power to both at the same time one will close and one will open. By doing this you will have total flow to either the reservoir or the sprayers and your pump will run 24/7. The opening and closing time are almost instantly so your pump will experience little shock to its impellors or other parts and pieces.

Might want to check out the mag drive pumps that the EZ Cloner uses:
Available in multiple GPH ratings and also inline or submersiblwe operation.

http://www.ezclone.com/products/925-water-pump/

These come with a lifetime mfg warranty...remember you get what you paid for, so you might as well pay for what you want to get.

MacGuyver4.2.0 said:

Might want to check out the mag drive pumps that the EZ Cloner uses:
Available in multiple GPH ratings and also inline or submersiblwe operation.

http://www.ezclone.com/products/925-water-pump/

These come with a lifetime mfg warranty...remember you get what you paid for, so you might as well pay for what you want to get.

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They are just cheap pumps. Nothing a reef aquarium keeper would ever consider using so I would definitely not recommend them for use with a crop worth as much as mj. I guarantee you if you cycle the pump on and off repeatedly they will not warranty the pump. That is misuse/abuse, as the pump is designed and sold to be run 24/7 not repeatedly short cycled. They only warrant aginst manfacturing defects. Not standing up to misuse and abuse is not a mannafacturing defect. As for their bull about no heat being produced. They are simply not telling the truth. No motor is 100% efficient, especially not cheap motors such as the ones they sell with their units. While they are low wattage so the heat will not be large it adds upuickly as it is constant emitted. Where air cooled pumps transfer most heat to the surrounding air, a submersible pump transfers all heat directly to the water it sets in. Most reservoirs have a problem of being to warm, not to cold. A submersible pumps should not be used unless you have a problem keeping your water warm enough without supplemental heat. The efficiency of a cheap submersible pump is probably not much more than 60%. That means the other 40% is heat passed on to the water.

fatman7574 said:

They are just cheap pumps. Nothing a reef aquarium keeper would ever consider using so I would definitely not recommend them for use with a crop worth as much as mj. I guarantee you if you cycle the pump on and off repeatedly they will not warranty the pump. That is misuse/abuse, as the pump is designed and sold to be run 24/7 not repeatedly short cycled. They only warrant aginst manfacturing defects. Not standing up to misuse and abuse is not a mannafacturing defect. As for their bull about no heat being produced. They are simply not telling the truth. No motor is 100% efficient, especially not cheap motors such as the ones they sell with their units. While they are low wattage so the heat will not be large it adds upuickly as it is constant emitted. Where air cooled pumps transfer most heat to the surrounding air, a submersible pump transfers all heat directly to the water it sets in. Most reservoirs have a problem of being to warm, not to cold. A submersible pumps should not be used unless you have a problem keeping your water warm enough without supplemental heat. The efficiency of a cheap submersible pump is probably not much more than 60%. That means the other 40% is heat passed on to the water.

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My frinds EZ Cloner 60 site has been in use (not constant though) for 2 years now. I always thought the mag drive pumps WERE the ones that most salt water tank owners use anyways.
Salt water tanks are the most abusive on pumps there are...
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/126/Danner-Supreme-Mag-Drive-Pumps/pump/0

MacGuyver4.2.0 said:

My frinds EZ Cloner 60 site has been in use (not constant though) for 2 years now. I always thought the mag drive pumps WERE the ones that most salt water tank owners use anyways.
Salt water tanks are the most abusive on pumps there are...
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/126/Danner-Supreme-Mag-Drive-Pumps/pump/0

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Wow, you picked out some more garbage pumps. danner-Mag drive pumps are crap. Few reef keepers iuse submersible pumps in their sumps. the vast majority use air cooled pumps. I have a living room full of reef tanks. Most reef kkepers only use submersible pumps as needle whhel pumps to supply air and water to small in sump protein skimmers. I am sure some reef keepers start out buying low grade equipment, however it usually quickly gets thrown in a box or a trash can. Reef tanks really are no harf der on pumps that growers are. Both are using pumps to pump very corrosive water. Both generally have the pumps running 24/7.

If you want to look at some good pumps look at some Iwaki air cooled or some Eheim, Sicce Syncra, Sedra or Ocean Runner, not Danners or Rio's etc.

The cloner pump is OK for a cheap pump. What I am saying is it is just not a quality pumpbut simply a bargain basement pump. Pumps experaince very little waer when they run 24 hours per day. I have many, many large 1/4 hp to 1 hp pumps thart are over 20 years old that have required no maintenance but bearings and seals. I have many that have been in constant use for over 4 to 5 years now that have need no mainteance other than blowing out dust from the vent slots.

However cheap pumps such as that supplied by eazy cloner are not repairable pumps as far as bearings and seals. I am not sure anyone would want to bother with repairs on a retailed $30 or $40 pump.

fatman7574 said:

Wow, you picked out some more garbage pumps. danner-Mag drive pumps are crap. Few reef keepers iuse submersible pumps in their sumps. the vast majority use air cooled pumps. I have a living room full of reef tanks. Most reef kkepers only use submersible pumps as needle whhel pumps to supply air and water to small in sump protein skimmers. I am sure some reef keepers start out buying low grade equipment, however it usually quickly gets thrown in a box or a trash can. Reef tanks really are no harf der on pumps that growers are. Both are using pumps to pump very corrosive water. Both generally have the pumps running 24/7.

If you want to look at some good pumps look at some Iwaki air cooled or some Eheim, Sicce Syncra, Sedra or Ocean Runner, not Danners or Rio's etc.

The cloner pump is OK for a cheap pump. What I am saying is it is just not a quality pumpbut simply a bargain basement pump. Pumps experaince very little waer when they run 24 hours per day. I have many, many large 1/4 hp to 1 hp pumps thart are over 20 years old that have required no maintenance but bearings and seals. I have many that have been in constant use for over 4 to 5 years now that have need no mainteance other than blowing out dust from the vent slots.

However cheap pumps such as that supplied by eazy cloner are not repairable pumps as far as bearings and seals. I am not sure anyone would want to bother with repairs on a retailed $30 or $40 pump.

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Some of these pumps look very expensive. The ocean runner pumps look very similar to the danner pumps in the impeller construction. Is it a more sturdy pump than a danner pump or is it more of the same?

totallytoastin said:

Some of these pumps look very expensive. The ocean runner pumps look very similar to the danner pumps in the impeller construction. Is it a more sturdy pump than a danner pump or is it more of the same?

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The ocean runner pump ia constructed much better. It is used on many brands of protein skimmers. You would be hard pressed to find any manfacturers that use the Danner pumps for their products. They have always been considered near bottom rung pumps. The ocean runner is submersible where as the Danner claims to be both air cooled or submersible.

I really do not recommend submersibles. They just don't perform as well as the air cooled and they heat the water too much. There are a some real good Iwaki MD-30RZT medium pressure pumps available cheap on ebay. They will run circles around any of the submersibles and all of the high flow air cooled pumps. They put out around 24 psi, versus the 2 to 5 psi put out by most high flow pumps. They actually make your sprayers spray rather than trickle out streams of water. It will pump at heights up to 36 feet. A Danner pumps to 5 ft or 12.5 feet for there largest model.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Magnetic-Pump-MD-30RZT-115NL01-New_W0QQitemZ390174488700QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item5ad836387c

This Iwaki MD-70RZT puts out over 42 psi presure and pumps to heights of 66 feet. It will run a huge number of sprayers at a full fan spray. Only $70

http://cgi.ebay.com/IWAKI-magnet-pump-MD-70RLZ-120v_W0QQitemZ330418274893QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pumps?hash=item4cee76c24d

Good pumps cost more but they are beeter performing pumps. If you are going to push water through a little sprayer hole you need a pump that is designed to put out pressure instead of a large volume at low pressure. Consider the MD-70RZT can handle over 800 high pressure sprayers that put out a mist and use 0.75 gallons per hour. Or it can supply over 60 low pressure high volume sprayer and they will really spray and not trickle streams.

The MD-30RZT will handle about 25 low pressure high volume sprayers. They will also spray instead of the putting out the trickling streams produced by the Danners and other low pressure high volume pumps.

If you want to see the difference scab together some pipe, fittings and such and use youtr kitchen or out door faucet to spay water through a chepa low pressure high volume sprayer. You should see a great difference over that spraying a cheap Danner or such will produce. Even the low pressuree sprayers are typically designed for 15 psi. A Danner nor any other flow bias pump will deliver 15 psi.

The manfacturers sacrificed pressure for higher volumes. Iwaki is about the only small flow high pressure pumps. No one usually needs both high pressure and high volume in a home sized or common sized commercial grow room. They are avilable though. They will not be submersibles or the brands commonly talked about in growing forums. Iwaki is the pump manfacturer for all plastic contact surface pumps. It all just depends on how much you want your electric bill to be.

Thanks for the help.

I will look into iwaki pumps in the future, but i like the ease of submersible. For now I will check out the ocean runner pumps as they are carried locally. Maybe some iwaki pumps in the future.

For my application submersible will work fine. The performance the danner puts out is satisfactory, it's just the reliability which is my main concern. I would like to have a pump I can cycle continuously and be able to rely on. They don't heat the water up very much at all either.

But thanks a lot. I'm saving this thread for future reference.

I went with a marineland 600 gph pump for now. The impeller is a rigid design which will hopefully stand up to cycling.

The Marineland powerheads are made for repetitive cycling so they will hold up better to your cycling needs, They are a very low pressure pump however, the 600 deliver a maximum of about 2.4 psi. They like other flow biase pumps are made to circulate water, not tp ump at pressure through filters or sprayers etc. I can pretty much gurantee you that if you ever use a higher pressure pump with sprayers you will not return to low pressure pumps.

fatman7574

Thanks for all your input on pumps, lots of information. I did check on the EZ Cloner's mag drive pump and even though it says 'New & Improved' you are correct...is not not meant to be cycled and this is in fact stated in the warranty (bummer). I too, will check out some of the other pumps you mentioned. rep+