Advice on a FLIR thermal search warrant of a small grow

T

ta-cfk

New Member
I’m in a situation where a police officer obtained a thermal search warrant and used the results as probable cause to get a house search warrant for a VERY small closet grow. I need to show that the results of the thermal search warrant were not grounds for probable cause. The thermogolgist who conducted the search claims they saw unusual heat patterns consistent with cultivation. The thermal search warrant states probable cause would be needed from the thermal search to able to apply for a house search warrant. The light that they claim gave off the unusual heat was not a typical grow light; it was a dimmed LED running at roughly 100-120 watts. They used a handheld FLIR pointed at a basement glass cinder block window. The light was 15 feet away from window behind a closet door. It was in a cold basement room with an ambient temperature of 65-70 F. The light barely gave off any heat. The outside temperature was about 15-20 F when they executed the search.

I 100% believe their thermal results were NOT justified. I need help figuring out how to challenge their findings. I cannot find anything online for someone that has been in this situation. Does anyone have any recommendations or advice?
 
BarnBuster

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
Specifically, WHY do you think LE targeted your house out of all the houses in the city? What was the PC on the warrant to get a FLIR search in the first place? Have they charged you with anything yet? I hope you have a really good atty and not a PD. In the USA , in a non legal state I'm assuming.
There're more questions but let's start with the above.
ta-cfk said:
I cannot find anything online
Click to expand...
Search for: case law thermal imaging use Kyllo , within the last 2 years.
 
Last edited:
T

ta-cfk

New Member
I'm familiar with the case you referenced. That case was about the cops not using a search warrant for the FLIR. They used a search warrant in my case, but they lied about their findings to justify a house search warrant. I have a lawyer, but the case is so niche it is going to be extremely difficult to show the agent who conducted the thermal search warrant wasn't being truthful. I will need one hell of an expert witness to counter. From my understanding, if I can show the cop lied my case will get thrown out, but if they find the cop made a mistake then I am fucked. I applied for discovery and they supplied everything but the report from the cop thermologist.

I've been charged with a very small grow. This was a micro hobby grow for therapeutic benefit, I was NOT distributing. It is a felony though which black balls me in my career field. The PC is circumstantial. They did a garbage pull that came up negative. They had no physical evidence, or anyone with first hand knowledge that I was doing anything illegal. I had zero criminal history prior to this. On the thermal SW they described it as "affiant received information", and on the house SW as "received an anonymous tip". No information on who, what, when, where, why, or how they got the tip. The tip had no first hand knowledge, just suspicion. That lead them to apply for a subpoena of my utility. 5 months after the subpoena they compared my utility to 2 houses that are 2/3 the size of mine and it was higher. It definitely was not a fair comparison, but enough for them to use it as PC for the thermal. The thermal states, "If the warrant for a thermal image evaluation provides additional information supportive of probable cause to believe that the manufacturing operation is currently ongoing, law enforcement will apply for an additional search warrant ".
 
BarnBuster

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
Well, it's obvious someone had a hard-on for you from the get go, be it friend, relative or disgruntled ex-something to initiate the whole thing. Maybe that's the angle to attack, unless there is a reason for LE to target you specifically. Have they offered you a plea bargain yet? Situation sucks, man :(
 
N

NYStoner

Member
Just curious in what state did this happen and did it happen to other growers in your area? If it happened to other people then it might be a crack down cops are doing with new technology FLIR .
 
GBAUTO

GBAUTO

Well-Known Member
This is so preposterous.
Even if there was a heat source that was a possible grow light, wouldn't it be just as plausible that you're growing vegetables indoors???
Sucks that you even have to deal with this type of BS, but I'd think any competent attorney should be able to get it tossed.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Rent a flir camera yourself and take thermal images of it and of neighbouring households.

No way a 100-200w light would create enough heat to show anything any different from the same room without one.

Or where you heating the room ? Or venting the heat out of an air brick or something that shouldn't have any thermal sig?

I would of thought its more likely someone reported you or there were visible signs of a grow light and they used a flir to try and have an excuse but knew you were growing so bullshitted the results or at least embellished their own interpretations of the flir images.
 
Dapper_Dillinger

Dapper_Dillinger

Well-Known Member
ta-cfk said:
I'm familiar with the case you referenced. That case was about the cops not using a search warrant for the FLIR. They used a search warrant in my case, but they lied about their findings to justify a house search warrant. I have a lawyer, but the case is so niche it is going to be extremely difficult to show the agent who conducted the thermal search warrant wasn't being truthful. I will need one hell of an expert witness to counter. From my understanding, if I can show the cop lied my case will get thrown out, but if they find the cop made a mistake then I am fucked. I applied for discovery and they supplied everything but the report from the cop thermologist.

I've been charged with a very small grow. This was a micro hobby grow for therapeutic benefit, I was NOT distributing. It is a felony though which black balls me in my career field. The PC is circumstantial. They did a garbage pull that came up negative. They had no physical evidence, or anyone with first hand knowledge that I was doing anything illegal. I had zero criminal history prior to this. On the thermal SW they described it as "affiant received information", and on the house SW as "received an anonymous tip". No information on who, what, when, where, why, or how they got the tip. The tip had no first hand knowledge, just suspicion. That lead them to apply for a subpoena of my utility. 5 months after the subpoena they compared my utility to 2 houses that are 2/3 the size of mine and it was higher. It definitely was not a faircomparison, but enough for them to use it as PC for the thermal. The thermal states, "If the warrant for a thermal image evaluation provides additional information supportive of probable cause to believe that the manufacturing operation is currently ongoing, law enforcement will apply for an additional search warrant ".
Click to expand...
They cant get a search warrant on an anonymous tip ,so that tells you who ever ratted didnt want to testify so the cop had to lie and say ther was a suspicious thermal signature coming from your house. You need a good lawyer
 
Dapper_Dillinger

Dapper_Dillinger

Well-Known Member
coreywebster said:
I would of thought its more likely someone reported you or there were visible signs of a grow light and they used a flir to try and have an excuse but knew you were growing so bullshitted the results or at least embellished their own interpretations of the flir images.
Click to expand...
Exactly pure cop bs
 
J

jollyrodger420

Member
The company I work for provided level 1 thermography training for my department. The training was put on by the snell group. I can tell you for a fact that if the temperature difference between the outside of the house and the inside is greater than 15 degrees the findings would be inconclusive. And that just scratches the surface of why the image would be inconclusive based on the information you provided. You can search the internet for thermal images of houses. The windows would always be glowing in a heated house. Simply because heat transfer is so much greater through glass than insulation.
if I was you, I’d hire a professional thermographer willing to speak on your behalf.
 
A

Apalchen

Well-Known Member
Someone knew who shouldn't have. Pretty much always the case when someone gets caught. What's your lawyer saying. Lawyers make all the difference, if you have the money and this one isn't telling you what you want to hear find another one. If you have a public defender your going to get convicted 99/100 times. Best bet if u do have a public defender is a good plea deal.

Money is the key to getting out of trouble on a state drug charge. Of course the prosecutor won't talk to you about how much money he wants to make it a misdemeanor and give you probation. But if you find the right lawyer and have the money available it usually works out that way, especially since it was such a small grow.
 
W

waterproof808

Well-Known Member
Your lawyer should request a probable cause hearing and argue that a utility bill comparison of smaller homes in your neighborhood is not sufficient to determine probable cause for a Thermal scan.
Compare the square footage of the other homes they used with yours and determine the percentage of difference and then compare with utility bill. A higher utility bill is not an evidence that a crime is taking place unless your bill is exorbitant.

Also, the subpoena of utility bills should not have even been done in the first place if it was based only on an anonymous tip with zero credible information.
Your lawyer should be able to get the case thrown out easily.
 
Dougnsalem

Dougnsalem

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna guess that they locked OP's ass up, since he hasn't been back here since July. Hope not....
 
A

Apalchen

Well-Known Member
Probably got a public defender, but really posting on here isn't a good idea when involved in a case anyways.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top