Abortion and Equality - Where do you Stand?

Carne Seca said:

A woman has the right to make choices about her own body. Period. It's a medical issue not a moral one.

If it's a moral issue for you then don't have an abortion but don't force your religious dogma on me.

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I think the problem is what you define as the womans body vs the babies body, and where you draw the line. Not everyone is going to agree where that line is drawn. Is it birth? Conception? 2 years old? When exactly does that fetus get basic human rights?

I agree religious views shouldn't be pushed on anyone, but moral views should. If I believe abortion is wrong then how could I sit idly by and let you perform abortions while just minding my own business? You could make the same argument for murdering homeless people. If you think murdering homeless people is wrong, then don't go murder any, but don't push your damn religious views about hobocide on me.

I usually stay away from topics like this, but since someone I know is dealing with this decision I'll weigh in.

Not all life is equal. I think we can all agree on that (you plant murderers). But at the same time not every stage of life is equal. At the early stages of a pregnancy, the baby is not a baby at all, just a small cluster of cells. Call me immoral but I don't think it is murder to rid your body of cells. Nobody pickets the doctors that remove warts or cysts from people.

At the same time, I don't know if I would ever be able to go through with one. I'm a guy, so the choice isn't even up to me, but I would have a real hard time choosing the abortion route if I did have a say. If you ever want children (which someday I do), you can never be sure of how many chances you will have to get pregnant. People become infertile. I've heard stories about women that have had abortions that have had trouble conceiving later in life.

So in summation, I would say I'm all for abortion being legal and available but would never seek one myself.

guy incognito said:

I think the problem is what you define as the womans body vs the babies body, and where you draw the line. Not everyone is going to agree where that line is drawn. Is it birth? Conception? 2 years old? When exactly does that fetus get basic human rights?

I agree religious views shouldn't be pushed on anyone, but moral views should. If I believe abortion is wrong then how could I sit idly by and let you perform abortions while just minding my own business? You could make the same argument for murdering homeless people. If you think murdering homeless people is wrong, then don't go murder any, but don't push your damn religious views about hobocide on me.

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Medical Science has already determined when a fetus is "viable."

edit: If abortion is outlawed then I think masturbation should be outlawed as well. Punishment should be castration. After all, it takes sperm to fertilize an egg and masturbation is destroying a potential life. We need to reinstitute chastity belts for men.

Carne Seca said:

Medical Science has already determined when a fetus is "viable."

edit: If abortion is outlawed then I think masturbation should be outlawed as well. Punishment should be castration. After all, it takes sperm to fertilize an egg and masturbation is destroying a potential life. We need to reinstitute chastity belts for men.

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And I have seen adults that don't fit the definition of "viable", as they cannot survive on their own without continuous medical treatment. Maybe they should be murdered if their existence is an inconvenience to someone.

EDIT: And I agree masturbation should be outlawed. There is fundamentally no difference between murdering an adult and murdering sperm cells.

guy incognito said:

And I have seen adults that don't fit the definition of "viable", as they cannot survive on their own without continuous medical treatment. Maybe they should be murdered if their existence is an inconvenience to someone.

EDIT: And I agree masturbation should be outlawed. There is fundamentally no difference between murdering an adult and murdering sperm cells.

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First of all, where people (aka men) get this idea that an abortion is just another procedure like a tonsillectomy or a nose job or getting your teeth capped is beyond me. An abortion is a traumatic, well thought out, much agonized over decision. Years ago, against my own religious convictions, I accompanied a young woman (we were the same age) to Colorado to get an abortion. She cried the entire trip home. She was traumatized for years over it. Being a man I can't even imagine having to make a choice like this but I do know it isn't done out of "convenience." It's a tough enough decision without muddying the waters and making it harder for a woman to address her health care needs. Do we really want to go back to the days of wire hanger abortions and women losing their lives? You know, like what's happening in Texas right now.

I'm not even going to address your straw man euthanasia tangent. It has no bearing on this discussion.

I have to somewhat disagree with your Carne. I have first hand experience from knowing a couple of women who VERY casually used abortion as a form of birth control. It was no different to them than a routine dental cleaning. So whilst it is a traumatic experience for some, it isn't a black and white experience by any stretch of the imagination.

I grew up in a christian home, we were taught the whole every sperm is sacred line etc, that Homosexuality is evil and that the gays were going to take over and ruin the world (another topic I know). I entered adulthood firmly entrenched in that mindset.

When I was 22 my now ex wife aborted a baby she was certain wasn't mine in a bid to try and keep our marriage together. It almost killed her and at the time I wished it had. I don't know how it affected her emotionally because though we're friendly now it's still a topic she's not interested in discussing. My current girlfriend had an abortion shortly after we got together. (It's a LONG story) Though the child wasn't mine, I took her for the procedure saw her through the physical and emotional fallout and still support her emotionally when she needs it. This is NEVER going to be a black and white issue, but the fundamental truth that I will agree with is that we CAN NOT ever let ourselves end up back in the time of back alley coat hanger abortions.

theQuetzalcoatl said:

I have to somewhat disagree with your Carne. I have first hand experience from knowing a couple of women who VERY casually used abortion as a form of birth control. It was no different to them than a routine dental cleaning. So whilst it is a traumatic experience for some, it isn't a black and white experience by any stretch of the imagination.

I grew up in a christian home, we were taught the whole every sperm is sacred line etc, that Homosexuality is evil and that the gays were going to take over and ruin the world (another topic I know). I entered adulthood firmly entrenched in that mindset.

When I was 22 my now ex wife aborted a baby she was certain wasn't mine in a bid to try and keep our marriage together. It almost killed her and at the time I wished it had. I don't know how it affected her emotionally because though we're friendly now it's still a topic she's not interested in discussing. My current girlfriend had an abortion shortly after we got together. (It's a LONG story) Though the child wasn't mine, I took her for the procedure saw her through the physical and emotional fallout and still support her emotionally when she needs it. This is NEVER going to be a black and white issue, but the fundamental truth that I will agree with is that we CAN NOT ever let ourselves end up back in the time of back alley coat hanger abortions.

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Actually that pretty much backs up my assessment. Lets just agree that it's a traumatic experience for MOST women. There are always exceptions.

Carne Seca said:

First of all, where people (aka men) get this idea that an abortion is just another procedure like a tonsillectomy or a nose job or getting your teeth capped is beyond me. An abortion is a traumatic, well thought out, much agonized over decision. Years ago, against my own religious convictions, I accompanied a young woman (we were the same age) to Colorado to get an abortion. She cried the entire trip home. She was traumatized for years over it. Being a man I can't even imagine having to make a choice like this but I do know it isn't done out of "convenience." It's a tough enough decision without muddying the waters and making it harder for a woman to address her health care needs. Do we really want to go back to the days of wire hanger abortions and women losing their lives? You know, like what's happening in Texas right now.

I'm not even going to address your straw man euthanasia tangent. It has no bearing on this discussion.

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I never said it wasn't a traumatic experience. Nor do I see how it is relevant. I have had girlfriends break down and cry over nothing. Literally nothing. I have also known people that have murdered someone in cold blood, and appeared not to be traumatized at all by the experience. And yes plenty of abortions are performed for convenience. She is too young, the dad is too young, they don't love each other and won't provide a stable home, they don't earn enough money, etc. The list of excuses can go on and on, and they all boil down to convenience. I'm not saying their are no legitimate medical reasons, but you are seriously deluded if you believe they are all for valid medical reasons and not because people are irresponsible, regret their actions, and want to avoid paying for them for the rest of their lives.

It's not a straw-man argument, it's a regular man argument and it depends on where exactly you place the line saying it is ok to kill someone. It was done to point out the flaw in drawing the line where a fetus is "viable". As pointed out in my example simply being "viable" is a terrible way to judge whether you should live or die.

Also religious convictions are stupid. If you have good, rational reasons for your belief then it would just be a conviction. The fact that it's a religious conviction implies you don't have any sound reasoning.

guy incognito said:

I never said it wasn't a traumatic experience. Nor do I see how it is relevant. I have had girlfriends break down and cry over nothing. Literally nothing. I have also known people that have murdered someone in cold blood, and appeared not to be traumatized at all by the experience.

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So you dismiss the trauma because women are prone to hysterics? Seriously?

guy incognito said:

And yes plenty of abortions are performed for convenience. She is too young, the dad is too young, they don't love each other and won't provide a stable home, they don't earn enough money, etc. The list of excuses can go on and on, and they all boil down to convenience. I'm not saying their are no legitimate medical reasons, but you are seriously deluded if you believe they are all for valid medical reasons and not because people are irresponsible, regret their actions, and want to avoid paying for them for the rest of their lives.

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O.k., Mr. Drama. I never said anything about ALL ABORTIONS. Tone it down a bit. This isn't the politics section.

You have a broad definition of convenience. What you described seems like prime reasons for abortion being a valid option. Abort a clump of cells or spend the rest of your life on welfare and becoming yet another burden on tax payers. Would you really want to see a child raised in that environment? So, better a starving child than offending your personal convictions. Funny how everyone talks about protecting the sanctity of life in the womb and then throws them to the wolves after they're born. Hypocrisy at its finest.

guy incognito said:

It's not a straw-man argument, it's a regular man argument and it depends on where exactly you place the line saying it is ok to kill someone. It was done to point out the flaw in drawing the line where a fetus is "viable". As pointed out in my example simply being "viable" is a terrible way to judge whether you should live or die.

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A fetus, an embryo is not a person. Its a collection of cells. It has no conscious thought. An adult can sign a DNR or not. My mother had a DNR and I thank God every day that she did. She suffered horribly and resuscitation would have been the worst of cruelties. She died in horrible pain. If she had not signed the DNR she would have suffered for weeks more. WEEKS. She was screaming from the pain. I can still hear it in my head. So, yes, this is a straw man diversion that plays no part in the abortion controversy.

guy incognito said:

Also religious convictions are stupid. If you have good, rational reasons for your belief then it would just be a conviction. The fact that it's a religious conviction implies you don't have any sound reasoning.

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No a religious conviction means that I have a set ethics and morals that I follow. You honestly believe I don't have any sound reasoning?

Carne Seca said:

So you dismiss the trauma because women are prone to hysterics? Seriously?

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I'm not dismissing anything. You are the one that brought up how traumatic it is, and it varies person to person. The one hysterical person you accompanied does not provide a representative sample of the entire population.

Carne Seca said:

O.k., Mr. Drama. I never said anything about ALL ABORTIONS. Tone it down a bit. This isn't the politics section.

You have a broad definition of convenience. What you described seems like prime reasons for abortion being a valid option. Abort a clump of cells or spend the rest of your life on welfare and becoming yet another burden on tax payers. Would you really want to see a child raised in that environment? So, better a starving child than offending your personal convictions. Funny how everyone talks about protecting the sanctity of life in the womb and then throws them to the wolves after they're born. Hypocrisy at its finest.

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You didn't use any qualifiers at all, what you said is:

Carne Seca said:

An abortion is a traumatic, well thought out, much agonized over decision.

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That sounds like you are describing all abortions. I know they are not all thought out or agonized over.

Abort a clump of cells, or spend the rest of your life on welfare, or get your shit together and get a fucking job and make sacrifices. No one said raising a child is easy and won't take hard work and sacrifice.

I don't even care one way or the other about abortion. I'll kill a baby right now. I just don't think you are justifying your position very well.

Carne Seca said:

A fetus, an embryo is not a person. Its a collection of cells. It has no conscious thought. An adult can sign a DNR or not. My mother had a DNR and I thank God every day that she did. She suffered horribly and resuscitation would have been the worst of cruelties. She died in horrible pain. If she had not signed the DNR she would have suffered for weeks more. WEEKS. She was screaming from the pain. I can still hear it in my head. So, yes, this is a straw man diversion that plays no part in the abortion controversy.

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Again you seem to drawing arbitrary lines. When exactly does a collection of cells become human? When it has conscious thought? If that's the case then what relevance does "viability" have and why was it brought into the discussion? It's very obvious that an elderly conscious person can communicate their wishes and it would be wrong to terminate them simply because they can't survive unassisted. My entire point was that "viability" is a terrible way to make that judgement.

Carne Seca said:

No a religious conviction means that I have a set ethics and morals that I follow. You honestly believe I don't have any sound reasoning?

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If you have sound reasoning then why don't you just call it a conviction? I have a conviction that murder is wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with any religion, I have non-religious reason. By saying it's a religious conviction you imply it is for religious (read: irrational) reasons and not rational reasons.

guy incognito said:

I'm not dismissing anything. You are the one that brought up how traumatic it is, and it varies person to person. The one hysterical person you accompanied does not provide a representative sample of the entire population.

Abort a clump of cells, or spend the rest of your life on welfare, or get your shit together and get a fucking job and make sacrifices. No one said raising a child is easy and won't take hard work and sacrifice.

I don't even care one way or the other about abortion. I'll kill a baby right now. I just don't think you are justifying your position very well.

Again you seem to drawing arbitrary lines. When exactly does a collection of cells become human? When it has conscious thought? If that's the case then what relevance does "viability" have and why was it brought into the discussion? It's very obvious that an elderly conscious person can communicate their wishes and it would be wrong to terminate them simply because they can't survive unassisted. My entire point was that "viability" is a terrible way to make that judgement.

If you have sound reasoning then why don't you just call it a conviction? I have a conviction that murder is wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with any religion, I have non-religious reason. By saying it's a religious conviction you imply it is for religious (read: irrational) reasons and not rational reasons.

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I never said it provided any type of representation other than an anecdotal example to offset the "convenience" argument. It makes it sound like women are so morally corrupt they kill fetuses for shits and giggles.

Kind of hard to get your shit together and get a "fucking job" when you're going through a pregnancy on your own. Child raising is hard work that's why it takes two parents (when possible), lots of planning and support. Kind of hard to do when you're on your own with an unwanted pregnancy. Guess what she has to fall back on? Government assistance.

The United States Supreme Court stated in Roe v. Wade (1973) that viability (i.e., the "interim point at which the fetus becomes ... potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid") "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. That's good enough for me.

This is completely off topic and strictly your personal opinion on the matter.

Carne Seca said:

Kind of hard to get your shit together and get a "fucking job" when you're going through a pregnancy on your own. Child raising is hard work that's why it takes two parents (when possible), lots of planning and support. Kind of hard to do when you're on your own with an unwanted pregnancy. Guess what she has to fall back on? Government assistance.

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Very difficult raising teenagers as a single mom too; still doesn't justify murder.

Carne Seca said:

The United States Supreme Court stated in Roe v. Wade (1973) that viability (i.e., the "interim point at which the fetus becomes ... potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid") "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks. That's good enough for me.

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That still seems awfully arbitrary. You have now defined when it is acceptable without providing a good reason. What exactly changes as the fetus crosses that threshold from not being able to survive, to being able to survive? Does something change that makes them human? Is there a specific reason that killing it one day is justifiable, and the next it is murder?

Is searching really this hard?

Trolling said:

Is searching really this hard?

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I've looked for the answer to this for twelve minutes now ... cn

I guess I'm a genius.

I don't get it. cn