A Bored Electrician to Answer Your Questions

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
hey bob, sorry for the late reply man, i somehow missed your post
unfortunately, your right, 'nope, you got 120v'
the good news is that IF the plug in the shed is a 'home run' or dedicated line going from the panel, to the outlet in the shed, than making it 240v will be easy.
the not so good news is that if your 240v devices require a neutral (and alot of 240v lighting/climate controllers do) than you will have to run new wire.
if they dont, then this will be relatively easy.
pic one-
the good news is, if that spare breaker in the top right is not being used for anything, than you have the space and the equipment to do what you need to do to make the outlet in the shed 240v
the bad news is your lights in the shed are being fed from the 120v outlet... so your lights will have to go bye bye, or be replaced by fixtures that will run off of 240v. and i dont mean the grow lights, i see a switch next to the outlet in the shed, and im assuming that switch feeds a light somewhere inside or outside the shed...

pic two- it appears that the circuits in question are sharing a two pole breaker, instead of two seperate single pole breakers as they should be

pic three- yep, thats a light switch being fed from the same circuit as the receptacle, as mentioned above.

pic four- that looks like a 120v 15amp GFCI outlet... could be a 20 though. but its 120v, no doubt about it.

in the shed-
the ideal thing to do would be to get rid off whatever lights are currently being fed from that switch.
get rid of that gfci and put in a 3 prong 240v outlet.
and then, in the main panel
remove the spare wire going to the attic from the 15 amp breaker on the top right.
remove the wire from the breaker feeding the garage (circuit 12)and move it to the breaker in the top right.
remove the neutral (white wire) from the neutral bus that is for the shed (circuit 14)
connect the neutral to the other pole of the 20 amp 240v breaker (circuit 12)
and that should give you 240v in the shed...

this is something you should only do if you are certain that the wire going to the shed is not sharing a neutral with another circuit. (like the one in the garage) this means that there must be a dedicated cable running from the outlet in the shed directly to the panel, and not connected to anything else in between... there is a way to test that but the test should only be performed by a qualified electrician, as there is significant risk of electrocution in performing the test. however, if you can see the cable with your eyes running to the shed, and your positive that its a dedicated line, then I could do the procedure i just explained as fast as 15 mins, and thats being ultra conservative in my time estimate.

as far as running a new cable, with a new breaker, its hard for me to estimate what it would cost, theres alot of factors to consider, how far is the run, does it have to be concealed, does it have to be buried, does it have to be in conduit or can it be direct burial cable, does your service have enough available ampacity, etc etc theres hundreds of variations that effect pricing.

I'm sorry dude, I totally fucked that up.

I grow my tomatoes in my garage, but since it appeared that the garage and shed were sharing a line/power whatever, I figured I'd show you some pics of the shed's outlet/wiring to get a feel for if the garage has 220V or not - clearly I didn't communicate that well enough, my bads :wall:

Anyhow, fudging around with that garage/shed circuit is kinda outta the question, as I don't know WTF is on that circuit and where it's running to, but I might have another option.

Not sure which pair it is, but either breaker #17 or #18 are two separate 20 amp, 110V circuits that I had installed a few months ago into the garage.

How hard would it be to turn these two separate circuits into one 220V circuit? Should be kinda easy, no?

And now that I've been reading up on it, I think I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous, so bare with me here..........

Since the electrician has already run the wires for me and wired it up (what a guy :lol:

), wouldn't it be pretty simple for me to "move" one of those circuits to the empty slot in the top left, and THEN switch the remaining line on that circuit (either #17 or #1

to 220V?

Letting me keep my 60amps in there, with the added benefit of 20amps of that being 220V?

Also, I was told there's a device at Home Depot that you can plug into outlets and than go to your breaker box and see what breaker they're running off of - is this true, and how much is it, any idea?

Have about 10 outlets in the garage, and wonder if the top circuit of #19 might feed an outlet or two in the garage, giving me another ~10amps to use.

Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it :lol:

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

Bob Smith said:
I'm sorry dude, I totally fucked that up.

I grow my tomatoes in my garage, but since it appeared that the garage and shed were sharing a line/power whatever, I figured I'd show you some pics of the shed's outlet/wiring to get a feel for if the garage has 220V or not - clearly I didn't communicate that well enough, my bads

Anyhow, fudging around with that garage/shed circuit is kinda outta the question, as I don't know WTF is on that circuit and where it's running to, but I might have another option.

View attachment 734160
View attachment 734161

Not sure which pair it is, but either breaker #17 or #18 are two separate 20 amp, 110V circuits that I had installed a few months ago into the garage.

How hard would it be to turn these two separate circuits into one 220V circuit? Should be kinda easy, no?

And now that I've been reading up on it, I think I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous, so bare with me here..........

Since the electrician has already run the wires for me and wired it up (what a guy ), wouldn't it be pretty simple for me to "move" one of those circuits to the empty slot in the top left, and THEN switch the remaining line on that circuit (either #17 or #1 to 220V?

Letting me keep my 60amps in there, with the added benefit of 20amps of that being 220V?

Also, I was told there's a device at Home Depot that you can plug into outlets and than go to your breaker box and see what breaker they're running off of - is this true, and how much is it, any idea?

Have about 10 outlets in the garage, and wonder if the top circuit of #19 might feed an outlet or two in the garage, giving me another ~10amps to use.

Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it

its all good man!

the tool your referring to is called a line voltage circuit tracer. there pretty fun to use, sometimes, lol... they way it works is its a 2 part tool, one part plugs into the circuit in question, and the other, a wand, is then used to track the circuit through other outlets or at the panel... i have no idea what one would cost these days, the one i use is a very high tech version of the same and it cost me 225$ bout 3 years ago, but im thinking the one @ home depot would prolly be somewhere in the range of 60-80$

the main problem your going to have with swapping one of the new circuits, is space in the panel board. see the breakers on labeled circuits 8,10 and 12,14? those are 240v 2pole breakers. on each pole of the breaker there is an opposite phase, which means 2 120 v legs = 240v.
now, keeping that in mind, you have tandem breakers on circuits labeled 17, 18. a tandem breaker has 2 legs of 120v of the same phase... its just 120v.
you get 240v by using a 2pole breaker, not a tandem... so you will have to play rearrange the breakers at the panel.
this will involve taking out that spare 15 amp breaker. that feeds the attic. you dont need the breaker, but you need the space it occupies.
then add a new 20 amp breaker top left. dont forget to knock out the slot on the panel cover for it.
move the one newer circuit you want to keep 120v to the new 20amp single pole breaker.
back to the right side of the panel, starting with number 4 first, now you have to move breakers 4,6,8,10,12,14 up, one slot each. you do not have to unhook the cable from the breakers to do this, just make sure the panel is off before you do it! this should be pretty easy, i notice theres a good amount of slack on the wires in the panel.
when your done, the empty slot will now be @ # 16, formerly where you master bedroom was. that will give you the extra slot for the 240v breaker you need to get in there... then its just a matter of removing the new tandem breaker you just had installed, and replacing it with a 240v 20 amp 2 pole breaker. you will still have to use the neutral on that circuit to get the other leg... am i making sense to you?

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

whatsgoinon said:
How you goin man.

First of all I'd like to thank you for giving up your time to help all of us.

I was wondering how one might wire a light bulb such as this one or any other singular lightbulb reccomended for growing plants without plugging it the roof as per usual . I dont really have any electronic expertise other than my father being an electronics technician for 20 years.

I had a purely fictional idea the other day, one that will not come into being - of growing a plant inside a tall surround sound speaker box - just so this plant would be hard to discover. This idea I had also consisted of inserting a small fan into the box (A PC fan)

I also imagined leaving the speaker fully operational as to muffle the sound of the fan. However I also did imagine taking measures to ensure the wires were fully insulated as to prevent problems with moisture etc.

How would one go about wiring this all up?

As I said, I have no real electronic expertise, but I have access to any necessary equipment and I can learn shit pretty quickly.

Is there anything one might need to be wary about?

Overloading etc. surely a light bulb and a fan will not cause this.

so let me ask a really stupid question here... are you going to cut a door in the speaker box first?

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
its all good man!

the tool your referring to is called a line voltage circuit tracer. there pretty fun to use, sometimes, lol... they way it works is its a 2 part tool, one part plugs into the circuit in question, and the other, a wand, is then used to track the circuit through other outlets or at the panel... i have no idea what one would cost these days, the one i use is a very high tech version of the same and it cost me 225$ bout 3 years ago, but im thinking the one @ home depot would prolly be somewhere in the range of 60-80$

the main problem your going to have with swapping one of the new circuits, is space in the panel board. see the breakers on labeled circuits 8,10 and 12,14? those are 240v 2pole breakers. on each pole of the breaker there is an opposite phase, which means 2 120 v legs = 240v.
now, keeping that in mind, you have tandem breakers on circuits labeled 17, 18. a tandem breaker has 2 legs of 120v of the same phase... its just 120v.
you get 240v by using a 2pole breaker, not a tandem... so you will have to play rearrange the breakers at the panel.
this will involve taking out that spare 15 amp breaker. that feeds the attic. you dont need the breaker, but you need the space it occupies.
then add a new 20 amp breaker top left. dont forget to knock out the slot on the panel cover for it.
move the one newer circuit you want to keep 120v to the new 20amp single pole breaker.
back to the right side of the panel, starting with number 4 first, now you have to move breakers 4,6,8,10,12,14 up, one slot each. you do not have to unhook the cable from the breakers to do this, just make sure the panel is off before you do it! this should be pretty easy, i notice theres a good amount of slack on the wires in the panel.
when your done, the empty slot will now be @ # 16, formerly where you master bedroom was. that will give you the extra slot for the 240v breaker you need to get in there... then its just a matter of removing the new tandem breaker you just had installed, and replacing it with a 240v 20 amp 2 pole breaker. you will still have to use the neutral on that circuit to get the other leg... am i making sense to you?

Good looks on the voltage circuit tracer; for $80, I think I'll just take a small light in there and turn breakers on and off and figure it out that way, though :hump:

Regarding the 220V, so basicallly you need two circuits to make that happen, as each circuit is only capable of running 110V when used by itself?

And these circuits need to be directly above/below each other to make this happen and install a double pole breaker?

So I couldn't simply move one of the circuits to #1 (the lone empty circuit) and make the other a 220V without removing another circuit?

So to make this happen, I'd basically have to disconnect the spare in the attic, move everything up one slot, gain the #16 slot, put in a double pole breaker for 16/18 for one of the new 110V circuits, and with the proper hookup that would now be 220V? And with the other 110V circuit I'd have to move that to #1 and "punchout" that last metal piece?

Lol........is that about it? :spew:

Also, how come a hard-wired light (like the one in the shed) can't run off of 220V?

Man, I fugging hate electrical............no offense :-|

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

Bob Smith said:
Good looks on the voltage circuit tracer; for $80, I think I'll just take a small light in there and turn breakers on and off and figure it out that way, though

Regarding the 220V, so basicallly you need two circuits to make that happen, as each circuit is only capable of running 110V when used by itself?

And these circuits need to be directly above/below each other to make this happen and install a double pole breaker?

So I couldn't simply move one of the circuits to #1 (the lone empty circuit) and make the other a 220V without removing another circuit?

So to make this happen, I'd basically have to disconnect the spare in the attic, move everything up one slot, gain the #16 slot, put in a double pole breaker for 16/18 for one of the new 110V circuits, and with the proper hookup that would now be 220V? And with the other 110V circuit I'd have to move that to #1 and "punchout" that last metal piece?

Lol........is that about it?

Also, how come a hard-wired light (like the one in the shed) can't run off of 220V?

Man, I fugging hate electrical............no offense

haha, its not hard man, theres just alot, almost too much, information out there, and its easy to get intimidated.

its not the light that cant run on 240v, its the lamps.... the filimants will burn up real quick like... in about 1-3 secs. it will burn real bright though in those 1-3 secs lol.

And these circuits need to be directly above/below each other to make this happen and install a double pole breaker?

yes. phases alternate going down the panel, in yours, circuits 1,2 are phase 1, and circuits 3,4 are phase 2, circuits 5,6 are phase 1 again, and 7,8 are pahse two, and so on and so on, so to get 240v you need two spaces stacked on top of each other. you have to/must/shall use a 2pole breaker...

So to make this happen, I'd basically have to disconnect the spare in the attic, move everything up one slot, gain the #16 slot, put in a double pole breaker for 16/18 for one of the new 110V circuits, and with the proper hookup that would now be 220V? And with the other 110V circuit I'd have to move that to #1 and "punchout" that last metal piece?

thats exactly it. that metal peice should prolly fall off the cover if you bend it with your hands, there designed to be broken out with minimal tools

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
thats exactly it. that metal peice should prolly fall off the cover if you bend it with your hands, there designed to be broken out with minimal tools

Hmmmmm................sounds like this is something that won't be getting done anytime soon :wall:

Wanted to get 220V in there so I can run a large (18-24K BTU) window air conditioner, but I guess I could just run two smaller ones that run off of 110V.

Any idea if a 14K and a 10K would be comparable in cooling power to one 24K?

FYI, going to build an insulated room in there and have the window ACs mounted in it, and exhaust their hot air through a gable vent that I found on the side of my garage to try and keep their intake temps <100F on hot days.

EDIT: would a fan speed controller like this be able to control two fans? One 8" exhaust and one 4 or 6" for intake? Obviously they'd be plugged into an extension cord and the cord would be plugged into this thing:

http://www.businesslights.com/variable-speed-fan-control-p-2051.html

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

yeah you will have to have some killer insulation on the room, those a/cs will heat your garage very rapidly in the summer, especially if there running for 12 hours on... id do stud walls with plywood ext with r-13 in 'em, then cover the plywood with insulation boards like they do for vinyl siding. some peole seem to have better luck with portable a/c units than window units ive noticed, they push more air.
heat management is always a pain in the ass man. i understand the concepts behind HVAC pretty well, but im no expert in that field.

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
yeah you will have to have some killer insulation on the room, those a/cs will heat your garage very rapidly in the summer, especially if there running for 12 hours on... id do stud walls with plywood ext with r-13 in 'em, then cover the plywood with insulation boards like they do for vinyl siding. some peole seem to have better luck with portable a/c units than window units ive noticed, they push more air.
heat management is always a pain in the ass man. i understand the concepts behind HVAC pretty well, but im no expert in that field.

Hmmmm, that's weird........was on the phone for about 15 minutes today with an AC expert, and he said the reverse regarding portable vs. window - said that window units were much more efficient/durable, and that for what I needed, a window unit was certainly the way to go.

The issue with portables is that when the intake temps get >90F, they basically stop working, whereas window units are a little more robust (according to this dude).

And yeah, this construction project is gonna be a bitch - good news is that I only have to build one wall, and I'll be using three of the existing walls (two of which are already insulated), so that's good.

Hopefully a 1000CFM centrifugal for exhaust and a 500CFM for intake can keep the 5x10 area with the back of the ACs <100F for the most part, and I think that running my flowering lights (2500 watts) at night should also help out immensely.

Time will tell............I really wish I was an HVAC guy and could just install my own mini-split, that'd be the shit.

EDIT: any info about the fan speed controller above?

And thanks so much for all your help..........you ever come east and I got you

.

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

id definitly take the HVAC guys word over mine on that one man, lol. like i said, im no a/c expert, i did not know about the 90 degree thing on the supply air, that is a good factoid to remember...
that VSC looks like it will do the job rather nicely, but be warned, variable speed controllers will make the fans noisy... and may cause problems down the road with the fan motors.
when im on the clock, i always use Variable Frequency Drives to control a/c motors, but the stuff i do at work is typically on a much grander scale cost wise than our little grow ops. a VFD costs 10 times as much as a VSC, but it lasts 10 times as long, and keeps the motors quiet and greatly prolongs there service life. it really comes down to how expensive is the motor your trying to control, if its less than say 200$ than the VSC will do the job, if its a really expensive, really quiet, really badass fan then i would want the VFD, that way i know i wont be replacing the fan motor in 2-3 years... its just a matter of cost vs. product life/desired operation, a matter of preference really.

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

man, dont even talk about back east, lol thats where im from and the dirty south has about worn out its welcome on me... haha.
i just want decent food man.... i miss the delis, and the pizza, and everything else it seems but the cost of living lol.

plus i have turned into a die hard predators fan.
who the hell would of thought nashville would have a kickass hockey team with a crowd that rocks the rafters every game...
and i grew up watching the bruins in boston garden with cam neely, so thats a real compliment coming from me :lol:

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

I'm actually making my reservations for a wedding down in Kentucky in a coupla months; never really been south for anything but Florida before, so that should be interesting - gonna take a bourbon distillery tour.

And you think that VSC will make the fans noisier than they already are? The idea was that I could use that when I didn't need all that airflow so that they WOULDN'T be as noisy - is this not true?

Thanks again for all your help, man.

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

yeah, they will make the motor growl, tho you might no notice it if there in the garage. you would really notice it if it was in a closet, for example.
Ky is beautiful in the summertime man!

Bob Smith · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
yeah, they will make the motor growl, tho you might no notice it if there in the garage. you would really notice it if it was in a closet, for example.
Ky is beautiful in the summertime man!

So you're saying that running the fan at full bore without the VSC would actually be quieter? Because I'm only looking for quiet - given my druthers, I'd prefer they ran full bore all the time for increased air flow.

And yeah, heading there a couple of days after the Derby, doing the bourbon trail, etc. - should be fun ;-)

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

depends on what type of noise your hearing... alot of noise by fans is caused by cavitation (vibrating fan blades due to back pressure)
or it could be airflow, or a combination of both. squirrel cage motors (99.99% chance your fan is that type) tend to whine like a turbine anyway... especially at low rpms, so when you use the vsc it keeps it at a low rpm and that makes the motor noisey. so you trade the noise from airflow/cavitation for motor hum at lower rpm's. sometimes you just have to experiment a little bit and see where the noise is coming from, and try to dampen it as much as possible. some people swear by using rubber gaskets to mount the fans, or suspending the fan from bungees.
so far with my grows ive been lucky in that noise hasnt been a problem.
im thinking tho that your noise might have alot to do with the concrete floor and empty space in the garage. natural echo chamber

TwinkleToes · Mar 3, 2010

I wouldn't replace the fuses marked 20 with 30's or anythin like that - as it will just burn your wiring before popping the fuse! Careful! I am not an electrician, but have a little experience (have been shocked multiple times lol). I am thinking of running a totally dedicated line into my growing area myself, but was wondering what gauge wire to go with for the 220. Any advise is appreciated! Nice electrician thread - boy will I have some questions for you in the future! Thanks! Woah i posted to page 1 lol!! Enjoying the electrician thread - making my list of questions for you now - thanks again!

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

TwinkleToes said:
I wouldn't replace the fuses marked 20 with 30's or anythin like that - as it will just burn your wiring before popping the fuse! Careful! I am not an electrician, but have a little experience (have been shocked multiple times lol). I am thinking of running a totally dedicated line into my growing area myself, but was wondering what gauge wire to go with for the 220. Any advise is appreciated! Nice electrician thread - boy will I have some questions for you in the future! Thanks!

well #10 will get you 30 amps of 220 up to 300' feet away.. i think that might help point you in the right direction??
lol not sure of your question or what post you were referring too, :eyesmoke:

whatsgoinon · Mar 3, 2010

IAm5toned said:
so let me ask a really stupid question here... are you going to cut a door in the speaker box first?

no, with my powers of moving objects through walls, I shall insert the lightbulb like so. :-P

Jk mate

by door I assume you literally mean, a door to access the plant Etc.

possibly.

I can modify it to however I like. Just assume I will and give an answer based on that please. Even if I dont, ill make it work either way.

IAm5toned · Mar 3, 2010

your best bet is to cfl in an enclosure that small, a 150w or 75whps will give you heat problems, because of the ballast. also ventilation, you will need it no matter what kind of light you use. that means some type of a fan, which will make noise...

whatsgoinon · Mar 4, 2010

IAm5toned said:
your best bet is to cfl in an enclosure that small, a 150w or 75whps will give you heat problems, because of the ballast. also ventilation, you will need it no matter what kind of light you use. that means some type of a fan, which will make noise...

I understand that, but can you answer my original questions please.

How can I wire it?

IAm5toned · Mar 4, 2010

wire what? lol.. you showed me a picture of a light bulb... wires dont connect to light bulbs...
the light bulb connects to a socket, which, if the lamp in question is an HID lamp, connects to a ballast that consists of a transformer, a capacitor, and possibly an ignitor. the ballast should in turn be connected to a timer relay, which in turn is connected to your line voltage. also any cooling fans should also be running on the same timer cycle as the lamp.

your not giving me enough information to help you out man, im not trying to be a smart ass.

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