20,000 Watt Medical Grow Op Construction

TheLastWood

Well-Known Member
So you can have a sealed system and have ventilation.

I'm sure you could think of somethin, I could draw it out for you if u need. Its pretty simple.

When I ran my room sealed I bougght an environmental timer that has co2, temps, humid, exhause and an overall cycle timer. With one of these it would be very easy to cool your room and/or lighting with outside air below 50*

There's no reason a 6kw grows lights put out more heat than a 1kw grows light. If you have sufficient air movement, not too many lights in a row, and efficiently/effectively ran ducting

Are you running bare bulb?
 

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
So you can have a sealed system and have ventilation.

I'm sure you could think of somethin, I could draw it out for you if u need. Its pretty simple.

When I ran my room sealed I bougght an environmental timer that has co2, temps, humid, exhause and an overall cycle timer. With one of these it would be very easy to cool your room and/or lighting with outside air below 50*

There's no reason a 6kw grows lights put out more heat than a 1kw grows light. If you have sufficient air movement, not too many lights in a row, and efficiently/effectively ran ducting

Are you running bare bulb?

I never mix sealed with ventilated. I've found that plants become addicted to high levels of CO2. If a room running at 1000ppm drops to 500ppm, growth STOPS. The only way to maintain the desired CO2 level all day long is to keep the room sealed. Cold outside air does help cool things because the lights are fed with outside air. I keep 2 - 14" exhaust fans on a thermostat set for 82f in the event of A/C failure. In 4 sealed grows, I've never needed them (Knock wood).

I had a grow in an area that was very cold in the winter (20f to 50f every night). I used 2 HUGE Caterpillar generator radiators as a heat exchanger between outside and inside. By placing one inside and one outside, I was able to circulate coolant between the 2 and totally cool a 14 light show with zero air exchange. The room stayed sealed. The only energy used was 2 - 36" fand blowing across the radiators and the pump circulating the coolant. Lights were on at night when it was cold outside.

I sent an email to the A/C supplier. To be honest, I'm not too worried. It just doesn't get too cold (or hot) here.

The CO2 is without any doubt WAY worth the meager electricity needed to power the A/C. Based on the yield difference Commercial J is getting with the exact strain (same clone!), same lighting, same nutes, same medium, etc...the increased yield will amount to AT LEAST 15 times the power bill increase. With a grow this size, I've found that almost anything you do that increases yield is well worth the money. I'm certainly not trying to "big time", but 10% more is quite a bit of weed. The CO2 increase on this particular Bubba pheno is more like 30%+. I have grown strains that didn't seem to do any better on CO2, as well. This is one of the reasons I waited to seal the grow and start the CO2. I always start with a ventilated grow. Once the grow is dialed in and we settle in on the strain or 2 we'll be growing, I decide whether or not to go with the CO2. In this case, CO2 is a must.
 

TheLastWood

Well-Known Member
If u have a timer like I'm talking about, you can have a sealed and ventilated room.

1 cycle consists of: maintain rh/temps/ppm, exhaust heat if needed, cycle exhaust (from 1 to 3 hrs)

Shuts of co2 before an exhaust, gets temp below set level, then turns co2 back on.

You will use a bit more co2. But its a lot less than buying an ac unit then upgrading it to cool below 65*

Like I said before, if your ac unit can't keep you within 20* of outside ambient temperature its inadequate.
 

medicine21

Active Member
I need an A/C that is not a window A/C and that does not have an outside unit for stealth. This is to run in a sealed room with CO2 and outside temps dropping as low as -22F* in the winter. I have tried a portable A/C but it leaks smell to the outside and sucks my CO2 out thus creating an inefficient cycle of heat-->A/C ON-->CO2 drop-->propane burner ON-->more heat-->A/C ON-->etc...

I've tried a water cooled A/C, but man the water consumption is huge on this thing. Isn't there a unit that can intake air from outside, blow cool air inside and exhaust hot air to outside WITHOUT an external unit?
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
To everyone who thinks you can have a sealed room and vent, please look up the definition of "contradiction."

You do not understand that THE NUMBER ONE THING in a sealed room IS TOTAL ENCLOSURE 100% 24/7/365. There is NO other option for CGE. The definition of CGE is a sealed room. If you add a fan, you do not have a CGE.

That is not to say that all of your ideas for fans and ozone and all that wouldn't work, because they would... It is just that I chose to lock my shit down for 0% air exchange to the outside. I DO NOT WANT COPS SMELLING MY CROP. EVER.

That is why we CGE growers take great pains to take care of every detail... I have every gadget and meter and then some. My room is a sealed plywood room in the garage, wrapped in insulation, and crack sealed with spray foam...

I do set up my lights on AIR cooling when the temps are cold enough to make a difference.
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
Also, one more important final frontier in the search for the perfect ductless mini split A/C is this:

Programmable thermostat... Sounds easy... Not so easy...

So we found A/Cs that will turn back on after power failure (auto-restart) and that work regardless of outside weather (low ambient kit), but how do we go about dialing in our daytime temps and nighttime temps?

hmmmmph

It looks like we need to find a ductless mini split with programmable thermostat... A call to my mini split guy yielded the response that he doesn't sell those.. Some searching on the web was promising, but still no answer...

That day/night diff is important.....

any ideas?
 

TheLastWood

Well-Known Member
So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.

And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous.

Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.

And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous.

Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.
I didn't say that just because the room is sealed the cops can't smell it... I use carbon scrubbers inside and have ozone on the outside of the sealed room (in case the scrubbers fail). I believe that a couple of giant Mountain Air scrubbers and a coronal discharge ozonator go a long way to keep the anyone from smelling anything - ever.

I didn't ask a question about how to cool my room with the outside air. I already GAVE AWAY all of the controllers I used when I brought fresh air in... when I went sealed.

Please, if you do not understand the fundamentals of CGE, read some articles. The constraint is keeping it sealed all the time. Get your head around that.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3368.html
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
OK, for the people interested I have FINALY found a ductless mini split with auto-restart, low ambient, high efficiency 19SEER, AND programmable thermostat.. So you can set your day/night temps.
Fujitsu Halcyon 18CL, 18,000 BTU 19 SEERtless Air Conditioner
Quick Overview
- One Outdoor Unit. ( AOU18CL )
- One 18,000 btu indoor unit. ( ASU18CL )
- One Indoor unit mounting plates.
- One Wireless LCD Remote Control.
- Installation Instructions
- 6 Year Compressor
- 2 Year Functional Parts

http://www.acunitdirect.com/fujitsu-18cl-18-000-btu-halycon-air-conditioner-ductless-mini-split-system-19-seer.html
 

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
So if a sealed grow has an exhaust, then by your definition its not a sealed grow. I think your the one with an improper use of the word.

And just because a grow isn't sealed doesn't mean cops can smell it, that's ridiculous.

Not gonna argue with you, but you ask a question, heat is your problem, and you say it gets very cold there, so I'm suggesting you use the environment to help you. Whether you want to do it, are mentally capable of doing it is your deal, it is possible to do tho.

Wood,

Hey, Bro. I think we're just kind of on different pages, here. You've been around long enough to know that I never add fuel to a brewing fire, especially if one of the old guard (YOU!) is involved. Let me try to put this to bed without any further tension.

I am well versed in the system and controller you speak of. I have a Sentinell controller that can work similar. The reason I do not use that anymore is because during the cycling, the CO2 levels vary too much. It has been my experience that when enriching, it's important to maintain levels withing about 10% of the desired level. Even setting the deadband too high can reduce growth when the levels swing toward the low end of the deadband. For many years I used such a system. This was before we had the controllers of today. We had to coordinate several controllers to do the "dance". It was very challanging to fine tune the enrich - hold - exhaust - enrich cycle. During this time period I read an article in the book: "Hydroponic Vegetable Production" regarding CO2 levels. Basically, it pointed out that once a plant gets used to above ambiant CO2 levels, lower levels will result in stunted growth. Several articles followed this one. I ran my own series of modest tests and found it to be very true.

This actually ended my use of CO2 enrichment foir several years. I found that I actually got the same or, even better growth without CO2 because I was not maintaining the levels consistant enough. Then in around 2001, I visited my first totally sealed grow room. It was also when I met Commercial J. The room was running 1500 ppm with a very tight deadband. As I stood in the room watching the CO2 meter, I noticed it never got above 1500, or below 1450. The temp was 80F, the humidity 50%, and everything looked like an operating room. Commerciual J explained to me that the A/C units were oversized enough to bring the room temp down to UNDER 70F if he desired. He could drop the RH to under 30% if need be, as well. He had total control. I knew that this solved the problem with fluctuating CO2 levels. Like you, Wood, I did not like the idea of using an A/C unit during the colder winter days. Shit, why us A/C when I have all this cold ass air right here, just waiting to be pumped into the grow. In a few days Commercial J had me convinced that it was the only way if I wanted those perfect CO2 levels and tight temp and RH deadbands.

Wood, I believe that both myself and Tommyo are "mentally capable" (your quote, and suprisingly insulting coming from you) of using the outside air to cool the grow room. It's a choice to not introduce outside air, and instead continue to condition the air already inside the grow. I hope we can all take a step back from this before people start saying things they don't mean. It's just a style of growing. Certainly not worth an argument.

The concept of a sealed grow op requires totally sealing the room from any air exchange. A/C and dehumidifiers are used to maintain the atmosphere at the desired levels. Even when it's asshole cold outside, the A/C is still used rather than venting. I fully know how inefficient and silly that sounds. But, it is how a totally sealed grow op works. Many air conditioners are not well suited for sealed grows. The portable units, even the dual hose models, create an air exchange. Many window units exchange air, as well. This little bit of exchange defeats the whole purpose behind he sealed grow. Our whole goal here is to only have to provide the CO2 that the plants use, and whatever CO2 escapes when we open the door.
 

TheLastWood

Well-Known Member
Gardener none of my posts have been directed at you, I know your perfectly capable. My point is physical possibility and his capability are not on the same plane.

Gardener, you said you will have emergency exhaust for rapid cooling, by tommys definition its no longer a sealed grow. Every grow has circumstances, to say it has to be sealed 100% 24/7/365 no air exchange ever! Well that's just stupid, and wrong.

Either way I'm done with it, I'm here for your grow gardener, not his.
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
The realm of physical possibility is not hampered by my capability since I am a certified Master Gardener and can also spell.
Please, I don't know why you have an attitude.
And emergency fans that would only kick on in the event of catastrophic A/C failure would not really count as unsealed because at that point, the name of the game is STOP THE BUILDING FROM BURNING DOWN.. silly dude..
 

TheLastWood

Well-Known Member
To everyone who thinks you can have a sealed room and vent, please look up the definition of "contradiction."

You do not understand that THE NUMBER ONE THING in a sealed room IS TOTAL ENCLOSURE 100% 24/7/365. There is NO other option for CGE. The definition of CGE is a sealed room. If you add a fan, you do not have a CGE.

That is not to say that all of your ideas for fans and ozone and all that wouldn't work, because they would... It is just that I chose to lock my shit down for 0% air exchange to the outside. I DO NOT WANT COPS SMELLING MY CROP. EVER.


That is why we CGE growers take great pains to take care of every detail... I have every gadget and meter and then some. My room is a sealed plywood room in the garage, wrapped in insulation, and crack sealed with spray foam...

I do set up my lights on AIR cooling when the temps are cold enough to make a difference.
Now I'm done.
 

tommyo3000

Well-Known Member
Oh, so a fan that is never used unless the place is about to burn down counts as unsealed?
Then the door to the growroom also makes it impossible to have a sealed grow.
Great reasoning.
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Oh, so a fan that is never used unless the place is about to burn down counts as unsealed?
Then the door to the growroom also makes it impossible to have a sealed grow.
Great reasoning.
Yeah, not trying to fan the flames here at all. I agree with you and CG on this, but I think it boils down to semantics on lastwood's end. I think what he's calling a sealed grow, isn't what people are referring to in general when talking about CEA (or whatever acronym you want to use). Controlled environment agriculture is as you've said, 100% sealed to outside air exchange.

Vented light hoods don't count as "venting" if they're well sealed against leaks. The emergency fans that CG has installed don't count either, as long as there is also either an electronic damper, good quality backdraft damper (or two). The grow remains sealed in all times except for emergency cooling. I like that setup the best myself, but I vent (and thus waste co2).

Wolv
 

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
Why don't we all go smoke a bowl and chill?

That's what I'm talking about.

Wood, you know I love ya, Bro.

I think Wolverines is right and all three of us gave WAY too much weight to a semantics difference. How about none of us waste any more time going down a negative trip that's jusr not necessary. I'll post a couple pics taken yesterday to put a bow on the issue.

Thanks Wolverine for the keen insight, and fire supression skills.

Tommyo, sounds like you and I have very similar growing styles.
 

collective gardener

Well-Known Member
Drying Bubba.jpgTahoe X Chem Dawg.jpgBubba Nug.jpgVeging Under T-5.jpgBloom Room 1.jpg

Pic 1. These are not my buds! LOL. Commercial J let me take a few pics of his drying room at his home grow. The fucker just pulled 7 Lbs. from 4 - 1000 watt lights dimmed to 750 watts.

This sickly little guy is actually a very healthy Tahoe OG x Chem Dawg. I did some mild super-cropping to even out the canopy. I tried the finished product from this cut and was blown away. It was so good that I just knew it would be a small yielder. There was a time when I was the king of getting good yields from small OG's. Unfortunately, it involved around 6 plants per sq ft. This legal med grow doesn't allow those plant numbers. So, I'll play around with these to see what I can do with my plant count.

Pic 3. This is a bud my wife just trimmed.

Pic 4. A new batch cooking under a T-5. I give them about 5 days under a T-5 to get them ready for the 1000 watt MH's. The plants with the orange zip ties are a new Bubba pheno we call the D-Bub. It smells and tastes the same as our old standby Bub, but with a higher yield. Commercial J has an 8 x 24 table loaded with 150 D-Bubs. The main yield difference is the cola. Our original Bub Cola was about 4-5 buds tall. The D-Bub's colas are around 10-12 buds tall. The colas on topped plants are all 8" - 12" tall...and dense as fuck. We have a D-Bub mother and about 20 test plants going into production this next cycle.

Pic 5. Here's an overview of the bloom room. I fucked up the schedule and don't have nearly as many plants in there as I should have. Whenever this happens I just spread out the plants. I figure that while we're waiting for additional plants to finish veging, the existing plants can benefit by recieving the additional light when spread out. I'm making sure this won't happen again by just always having 30 plants in every stage of veg. This way there is always a group of plants within one week of being ready to bloom. Excess plants are just thrown away. I'll continue this "shotgun" method until we can totally fine tune the cloning schedule.

Sorry about the washed out orange pics. I'll try to get in there right when the lights go out for some better quality pics.
 
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