Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

[hyroot]

its not slander when its fact. all bottled nutes are bad and contain shit in there thats not on the label. Ive used the ancient forest before and after i stopped using it I learned the truth. Go ahead and continue to be brain washed by the hydro shop /nutrient company mentality.



Source your own!!!

 

[Abiqua]

Source your own!!!

x2...........

 

[Abiqua]

..vegan is pretty much accepted nomenclature based on phsicality of something not animal derived,

...while vegetarian is often the most popular noun for a vegetable based anything even beyond food.

but it's really tit for tat....learning whats going on at the molecular level is more important and often overlooked.

 

[Abiqua]

the water that seeds soak in. That inhibits growth. Its all explained early in the rols thread. You want to rinse off all that water. Hence the resting and rinsing and soaking twice


https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-104.html




https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-52.html

thanks ...I was hoping you would catch this.

I was aware of initially soaking them before cooking or for making sprouts, but wasn't aware that the 1st soak was growth inhibiting? Wonder what it work's on.

Need to read that whole ROLS thread I guess, damn......Gina....got some popcorn and green butter, so it's cool.

 

[Nullis]

its not slander when its fact. all bottled nutes are bad and contain shit in there thats not on the label. Ive used the ancient forest before and after i stopped using it I learned the truth. Go ahead and continue to be brain washed by the hydro shop /nutrient company mentality.



Source your own!!!

Except that it isn't. Sorry you have such an extreme mentality, but just because something comes in a bottle doesn't automatically mean it "contains shit there thats not on the label". If you still can't except that you didn't know what you were reading on the State of Oregon, Dept. of Agriculture fertilizer product registration database, that is your problem. You post about the heavy metal content in those products, as if those are not insignificant TRACE AMOUNTS, as if every product doesn't have some amount of heavy metals, as if they were put there on purpose. And you go on saying there is Indole3 Buyric acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, Polyacrylamide, etc. in the products (in particular General Organics Bio-Thrive)... and this database is the basis for your claim, that they all "contain shit that's not on the label", correct?

Because for the last time, those are default fields of the "Non Plant Food Ingredients" table; which is displayed by default for most of the [liquid] products which contain any single one of those ingredients, as those are apparently common non plant food ingredients. If those ingredients WERE present, then you would see an indication of that, as in a percentage, as it does here for Humic acid and Kelp. See the "Other Ingredients" portion... along with what those ingredients are and in what %?

Some also list microbials, if present. Check out the listing for Bio-Tone Starter Plus: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=11206
You're telling me there is potting mix and polyacrylamide (SoilMoist) in Bio-Tone?

If not then what is the basis for your claims? (Other than that I have been "brainwashed", and isn't that convenient.)


And no, after you stopped using it you read something about a brand of Humus called "Alaska Magic" and mistook that for "Ancient Forest", and assumed it was all the same when it wasn't... and you're too damned stubborn to step back and realize this.

 

[hyroot]

no each nutrient had a different table therefore....

arsenic is a man made poison yet its in most of those bottles an not naturaly there. 1 example




for the last time GO buys from afaik and so does denali


its funny how 6 months ago when cann was saying what i say now and i replied to him the same way you reply to me. you were one of the people that jumped on me for saying the same thing you are now saying. which is the opposite.


cann proved me wrong about ancient forest. you sided with him and now say the opposite. he showed plenty of proof in the rols thread so go find it.
since you are so determined to be right even though you are wrong.


im done

 

[st0wandgrow]

its not that i dont care if its organic but my priority list is
vegan
organic

so vegan would be first priority over organic

Sunni, sorry for jumping on you. That wasn't my intention.

If you're interested in organics, and you want to stay away from animal-derived amendments you have some options other than bottled nutrients such as General Organics. It's not that bottled organic nutrients are necessarily bad, but imo building your own soil is better. As far as the General Organics lineup goes, you can bump up the biothrive grow and bloom to twice what the feeding chart says. I believe they call for 5ml per gallon of each, and I used 10ml per gallon of each with better results.

Down to Earth makes a "Vegan Mix" which is an assortment of plant and mineral based dry amendments. When building a soil you could start there and add a few other items like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed cake, and a solid mineral mix which would include rock dusts, calcium carbonate, gypsum, and maybe a couple other things. If you're interested in this, and are not grossed out by worm castings (or other compost), you could build a terrific soil that can be recycled and end of saving you a bunch of money. I know you're in to eating healthy ..... and this same concept can be employed in a veggie garden as well if you have one. If you do go this route, a worm bin is a great thing. Not only will you reap the benefits of the best source of humus you can find (for practically free) you can also recycle every shred of scrap food from your table right in to the worm bin and let them turn what would have otherwise been tossed in to black gold for your plants.

 

[Rising Moon]

For reals...

Quality compost being the heart of the system. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.

Add some kelp, neem, karanja, nettle meal, rock dust and volcanic rock, and you have yourself a tote ideal for a ROLS system...

No animal based manures required, NO BOTTLES and entirely vegan.

Bump...

Amazes me after being gone from this forum for more than 6 months, this thread still argues about the same old shit....

Build your soil with herbs, flowers and plant meals, leave the bottles for the kids. Time to move into real farming folks...

 

[sunni]

Sunni, sorry for jumping on you. That wasn't my intention.

If you're interested in organics, and you want to stay away from animal-derived amendments you have some options other than bottled nutrients such as General Organics. It's not that bottled organic nutrients are necessarily bad, but imo building your own soil is better. As far as the General Organics lineup goes, you can bump up the biothrive grow and bloom to twice what the feeding chart says. I believe they call for 5ml per gallon of each, and I used 10ml per gallon of each with better results.

Down to Earth makes a "Vegan Mix" which is an assortment of plant and mineral based dry amendments. When building a soil you could start there and add a few other items like kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed cake, and a solid mineral mix which would include rock dusts, calcium carbonate, gypsum, and maybe a couple other things. If you're interested in this, and are not grossed out by worm castings (or other compost), you could build a terrific soil that can be recycled and end of saving you a bunch of money. I know you're in to eating healthy ..... and this same concept can be employed in a veggie garden as well if you have one. If you do go this route, a worm bin is a great thing. Not only will you reap the benefits of the best source of humus you can find (for practically free) you can also recycle every shred of scrap food from your table right in to the worm bin and let them turn what would have otherwise been tossed in to black gold for your plants.

i have always grown organic and vegan i have always made my own mixes. i have always done my own
. but my list of priorities are
vegan
than
organic.

i bought the bottle on an impluse buy ive emailed the company i hear both side of the story i may decide to use it or not depending on what research i find

 

[Nullis]

no each nutrient had a different table therefore....

arsenic is a man made poison yet its in most of those bottles an not naturaly there. 1 example




for the last time GO buys from afaik and so does denali


its funny how 6 months ago when cann was saying what i say now and i replied to him the same way you reply to me. you were one of the people that jumped on me for saying the same thing you are now saying. which is the opposite.


cann proved me wrong about ancient forest. you sided with him and now say the opposite. he showed plenty of proof in the rols thread so go find it.
since you are so determined to be right even though you are wrong.


im done

Why don't you e-mail the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture and ask them yourself?

What is this "AFAIK" that you speak of?? I jumped on you for saying what, when? Which is the opposite of what I am saying now? Huh? Care to link me to the thread/posts in question? Otherwise I am sorry to say I don't recall such an instance... I am not going to go find anything, I have shit to do besides read through 100s upon 100s of posts.

The primary point I am trying to make is that you totally don't know what you're looking at on those web pages. To be honest with you, I am trying to make this clear for the benefit of anybody else who doesn't understand because this misinformation is not helpful to anyone. Obviously you're a lost cause and unfortunately you want to hang on to your misconceptions as tightly as possible... (or am I talking about myself?)

Another thing you fail to understand... Arsenic is not man made. Arsenic is a naturally occurring element, a metalloid, found naturally in the Earth's crust just like other minerals. Arsenic is naturally present in soil, food, and water.

Arsenic makes up about 1.5 ppm (0.00015%) of the Earth's crust, making it the 53rd most abundant element. Soil contains 1–10 ppm of arsenic. Seawater has only 1.6 ppb arsenic.[SUP][22][/SUP]

Some heavy metals are required as trace elements, most commonly copper, zinc, cobalt, nickel etc. but also others depending on the organism... potentially including arsenic. Of course, too much of any of these is also toxic to most organisms. Arsenic interferes with the Kreb's cycle, competing with phosphorous and inhibiting pyruvate dehydrogenase, thereby halting the production of ATP. However, there is organic arsenic and inorganic arsenic. The toxic forms of arsenic are the inorganic forms, while organic arsenic is relatively harmless. This is in contrast to mercury, in the case of which all forms possess some toxicity but the organic form (methylmercury) is the most toxic. When you see a listing of a heavy metal content (e.g. for arsenic), that is the maximum total content without distinguishing between organic/inorganic forms.

I sort of have a thing for chemistry and biology, of the real factual sort. If that makes me a know it all so be it.

So for the benefit of anybody else who actually would like to use the Oregon Dept. of Agriculture product registration database for a practical purpose, understand what they are looking it, and obtain accurate information from it, please follow along. What the database will tell you mainly is the maximum content of 5 heavy metals (in ppm), the guaranteed analysis, and what if any ingredients are considered "Non Plant Food Ingredients" (such as humic acid and kelp).

They all start off and look something like this, here is a good example:

Product Name: 7-28-4 Enhance +plus foliar fertilizer
OMRI Listed: No	WSDA Organic Program Listed: No	CDFA Listed OIM: No

Product Status	Brand Name	Waste Derived	Pesticide
Registered	Ag Concepts	No	No

Registrant: AG CONCEPTS CORP - CLOVIS, CA (559) 297-9322

Then the maximum heavy metals content (remember there is some amount of heavy metals in all soil/fertilizer). It always lists values for Arsenic, Cadmium, Mercury, Lead and Nickel in parts per million.

Heavy Metals (in Parts Per Million)
Arsenic: < 10.0	Cadmium: 38.4	Mercury: < 0.05	Lead: < 5.0	Nickel: < 1.0

Next up the guaranteed analysis. Pretty straight forward.

Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen: 7%	Avail. Phosphate: 28%	Sol. Potash: 4%
Calcium:	Magnesium:	Sulfur:
Boron:	Chlorine:	Cobalt:
Copper: 0.05%	Iron: 0.15%	Manganese: 0.1%
Molybdenum:	Sodium:	Zinc: 0.1%

And finally, should the product contain "Non Plant Food Ingredients", this table will be displayed with an indicator or value next to the ingredient if present.

Non Plant Food Ingredients
Humic Acid	Indole3 Butyric Acid	Naphthaleneacetic Acid	Phosphorous Acid
0.35%
Kelp	Vitamin B1	Polyacrylamide	Potting Mix
0.275%	0.0003%
Other Ingredients	0.0000% Bromelain, 0.000085% Papain, 0.00025% Riboflavin, 0.00060% Carrageenan, 0.27% Sucrose Also includes 0.0000051 units/ml citrate synthase, 0.000595 unit/ml malate dehydrogenase

Notice how there is no value beneath Indole3 Butyric Acid, Naphthaleneacetic acid, Phosphorous acid, Polyacrylamide or Potting Mix since these don't apply to this particular product.

All of these products with any non plant food ingredients display the same table. The table is not displayed if there aren't any Non Plant Food Ingredients listed.
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16644
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=18208
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=15835
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26500
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=13998 - Soil Moist product with Polyacrylamide polymer.
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26699
http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=12357

 

[Nullis]

^ Apparently not, when you try to make something clear as day for somebody and they just want go on as if you're the thick headed one. If I was hyroot and had any respect for facts or my intelligence I'd have admitted I was wrong already, whoops, my mistake, thanks for correcting me. Arsenic man made- lol.

Then he wants to tell me Ancient Forest humus is "fake" because "it all comes from the same place" (because of a particular defunct brand with a similar name) and that it is "just sphagnum peat moss"... when I've used enough compost and sphagnum in my day to know the difference. Not to mention I've bought bags of AF that had live worms still wiggling around in it- and not red worms, or nightcrawlers but a much smaller variety of worm I had never even seen prior to that.

I don't know what is more frustrating... Knowing you are right and being right, or knowing you are right and being wrong.

Also, I too grow in soil that I mix myself (based on SAM#4\OF) and recycled living soil, and I use AACT whenever possible. The thing is, I don't consider myself above or beyond using liquid organic products be they fertilizer or supplements- I just use them sparingly when I feel it is necessary (if I feel it is necessary). That fact that the product came in a bag or a box or a bottle, to me, in and of itself makes no difference.

I also use alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, earthworm castings etc. as well, except I don't post around here like my shit don't stink on account of it. I realize that not everybody has the time/space/effort to acquire all the ingredients in order to mix their own soils, wait for them to sit, brew compost teas, keep or tend to a worm bin, etc.

On a lighter note, I too am smoking Lemon Skunk, lovely strain.

 

[Nullis]

Oh I was? Where was I for that?

Trying to help somebody make sense of something isn't "talking shit"... Your post right there would be, though.

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-28.html#post9189680
^So what is that like unequivocal "proof", that post, right there? It isn't at all possible that Cann shared a similar misconception as yourself?

 

[boblawblah421]

You two quite arguing or you will go to bed without any dessert tonight.

 

[Nullis]

How would a raw single-ingredient product have a recipe (a single-ingredient recipe)? How could a raw product be patented? Are apples patented? Is soil itself patented?

You can't even admit you were wrong about Arsenic being "man made"... please dude, just, please.

Admit you're wrong about something for once, and maybe I'll be able to "let it go". Until then, yes you are misleading people. That says little of you're ability to help people as a whole, and even less about you as a grower, necessarily... but it still makes you wrong.

PS: The website I linked to tells you the first known date the TM was used/registered, etc. A trademark applies to a name, no shit, it IS a name. The registration date implies around when the product started being sold.

Why would they sell the same product under three different brand names (by three totally separate companies) starting in different years, and ultimately all competing with each other? As I mentioned, Alaska Magic is defunct (bankrupt) probably because they sold a shitty product. If they really wanted to screw people don't you think they would have exhausted one brand before starting another? And the AF issue is actually the least of my problems with your misinformation. Whatever it is, though, it isn't sphagnum peat moss, it is quite decomposed and has debris you wouldn't typically find in a bale of sphagnum.

 

[boblawblah421]

Would one of ya'll please be the bigger man and drop it already.

I'm an opinionated, argumentative ass-hole, but I'd like to think I know when to just shut the fuck up.

 

[foreverflyhi]

^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^

 

[Nullis]

This was not about opinion's. The point is, I don't want to see him posting the misinfo (not an opinion) anymore. If he didn't- I wouldn't try so hard to correct him, if I knew I wouldn't have to do it again.

And instead of sitting on the side lines why doesn't anybody else stand up for the sake of reliable information, and say he doesn't know what he is talking about (in this instance)?

*** I had no issue with hyroot prior to this; I hope not to in the future. Pretty sure we've even "Liked" each others posts plenty of times in the past. I realize it now looks like I've been talking to myself for the past 6 posts.

 

[hyroot]

^^^^ there threads / sticky's dedicated to not using those snake oils. They must have you in their pocket. or you work for them but. regardless of arsenic origin. there are man made compounds of arsenic too. Anyway arsenic is toxic and used in rat poison so why would anyone want to feed it to their plants. If the snake oil nutrient companies put that on their label they would go out of business. its a fact that most bottled nutrient companies lie to the public about what they have in their bottles and they manipulate the public into buying products they don't need and that don't do anything like pk boosters. npk numbers are irrelevant. Just like lighting. Its about the balance and having nutrient accumulators like kelp meal and rockdust will be more effective than any pk booster and not cause any phos abuse / stunting growth like all the high phos nutrients. less is more and more effective....... either way GO is not organic and that was my original point.. but

 

[Nullis]

No actually your "point" wasn't limited to that (which is all a matter of perspective, since GO does have all natural ingredients of vegetative origin and mined minerals). What you used to substantiate your claim was misrepresented. Regardless of whether I use the products or not, or to what extent I use them, you're misrepresenting information therefore it is still misinformation. I don't use any "PK booster".

I already said I mix my own soil, use raw ingredients, recycle soil and brew AACT. Still you fail to realize that not everybody has the time, effort or resources available to them to do this. Just because something comes in a bottle as opposed to a bag or a box doesn't necessarily mean it is "bad", that's kind of an asinine assertion.

You say "Arsenic is man made poison"... I say "uhm, no, actually Arsenic is a naturally occurring element, like zinc or iron"... so then you say "well there are man made compounds of arsenic". Indeed, there are man made compounds of arsenic... no shit. There are man made compounds of carbon and most elements. There are metals and heavy metals absolutely required for life (zinc, iron, copper, molybdenum) and too much of those are also very toxic. Still arsenic itself (and other heavy metals) are naturally occurring. The amounts which are present in bottled (and dry boxed/bagged!) nutrients WERE NOT ADDED INTENTIONALLY BY MAN. Those are heavy metals existing in their natural states, more or less at their natural concentrations. We're talking double digit parts per million or less.

Arsenic is in kelp meal.

Age old: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=25552 - 26.9 ppm

Down to Earth: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=576 - 25.8 ppm

EB Stone: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=635 - 26 ppm

Humboldt Solutions Soluble Seaweed extract: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26464 - 12.10 ppm

Nature's Solution Sea Kelp: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=17997 - 21.3 ppm

Kellogg Gardener and Bloome Kelp: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16522 - 23.1 ppm

Whitney Farms Kelp Meal: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=20030 - 23.3 ppm

Arsenic is in rock dust.
Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=604 - 12 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 41.91 Mercury: 0.44 Lead: 7.7 Nickel: 7.1

Gaia Green Glacial Rock Dust: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=11302 - 10 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: < 0.50 Mercury: < 0.05 Lead: < 5.0 Nickel: 16.9

Kellogg Gardener & Bloome Soft Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16523 - 2.14 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 1.28 Mercury: 0.06452 Lead: 5.77 Nickel: 12.0

St. Paul Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=5589 - 13.3 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 63.6 Mercury: 0.334 Lead: 31.5 Nickel: 139

Espoma Rock Phosphate: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=21812 - 11 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 42.0 Mercury: 1.2 Lead: 8 Nickel: 70

Excelerite Remineralize: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=20363 - 18 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 1.7 Mercury: 0.67 Lead: 8.1 Nickel: 5.6

Earthworm Castings too.
Roots Big Worm: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16790 - 8.8 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: < 0.1 Mercury: 0.13 Lead: 75.7 Nickel: 44.3

VermiWorm: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=26149 - 2.9 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 0.55 Mercury: 0.12 Lead: 19 Nickel: 20

Worm-Gro Earthworm castings: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=10110 - 2.46 ppm (Arsenic)
Cadmium: 0.311 Mercury: 0.130 Lead: 19.6 Nickel: 16.6

Do you use Roots Oregonism XL? Even that has 3.7 ppm Arsenic and 24 ppm Nickel! http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=6487

And do you know what else is used as rat poison, more commonly these days? Cholecalciferol and ergocalciferol. Know what that is? Vitamin D.

 

[boblawblah421]

There comes a point in a debate when an agreement to just disagree needs to occur.

Communities like this one are here for a reason. That reason is to combine as much information in one easily accessible location, so people can pick and choose what information they would like to run with.

Who here has not ever made a huge mistake by putting too much faith into what one single source of information told them? I know I have.

No one situation is exactly the same as the next.

Furthermore... We cannot control everything, or everyone. Even if we know for a fact that we are right, and someone else is wrong, sometimes you need to just let people make their own mistakes.

Nullis and hyroot... Are you guys married? Father and son? Husband and wife? Lesbian lovers?

No?

Then why do you give such a shit what the other thinks?

Nobody else is even fucking with this thread anymore because it has just turned into a cat fight.