greenghost420
Well-Known Member
one of my missions^^
F2s S1s BXs or IBL what does the community prefer?
- Thread starter greenghost420
- Start date
MrEDuck
Well-Known Member
Lots of good discussion already.
If I'm paying for seeds then my first choice would be worked lines but most breeders aren't selling the seeds they find their P1 stock in. Since that's the case I'll pay for true F1s. In some cases I'll pay for polyhybrids but not very much. Each round of selections required dramatically increases the amount of work required to get the final product. To make two separate inbred lines and cross them is a lot of work. That's why Serious offers a handful of strains even though Simon has probably cossed five times as many plants as the latest pollen chucker du jour who hits the market with a million crosses. The difference is he tested his and followed a plan with an end goal.
As far as what makes an F1 its not just ibl x ibl. In theory any two unrelated plants should make aj F1 cross. The problem is most strains have common ancestors so you don't get true hybrid vigor. Conversely if you were to start with 4 ibl A, B, C, and D you could cross the F1s AxB and CxD to make an F1 polyhybrid (termed a double cross) that will have the vigor of an F1 but more phenotypic variety. Also generally polyhybrid x ibl will show hybrid vigor. At least more than distantly related polyhybrids crossed to each other.
If I'm paying for seeds then my first choice would be worked lines but most breeders aren't selling the seeds they find their P1 stock in. Since that's the case I'll pay for true F1s. In some cases I'll pay for polyhybrids but not very much. Each round of selections required dramatically increases the amount of work required to get the final product. To make two separate inbred lines and cross them is a lot of work. That's why Serious offers a handful of strains even though Simon has probably cossed five times as many plants as the latest pollen chucker du jour who hits the market with a million crosses. The difference is he tested his and followed a plan with an end goal.
As far as what makes an F1 its not just ibl x ibl. In theory any two unrelated plants should make aj F1 cross. The problem is most strains have common ancestors so you don't get true hybrid vigor. Conversely if you were to start with 4 ibl A, B, C, and D you could cross the F1s AxB and CxD to make an F1 polyhybrid (termed a double cross) that will have the vigor of an F1 but more phenotypic variety. Also generally polyhybrid x ibl will show hybrid vigor. At least more than distantly related polyhybrids crossed to each other.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Chimera and Tom Hill are in the process of releasing clone only strains in seed form. Doesn't require a gigantic lab, does require a decent lab. Does require a fair bit of education. But Tom doesn't have a PhD or Masters as far as I know. Chimera has his masters. End of the day though they're all just processes. I'm not sure the technique I described is used conventionally, but it is completely possible. Getting clones over seas alive can be quite challenging and it's highly doubtful we see full legalization anytime soon.
greenghost420
Well-Known Member
i should have listed ibl x poly
MrEDuck
Well-Known Member
There's so many permutations it's tough to keep track!
It can be learned. Ultimately you're probably going to need to go through some formal schooling to learn to use the lab equipment but that's about it. I believe in the future that this is going to be a major way that seeds are sold but that people will still use traditional breeding methods to try to come up with interesting plants and because many cannabis users are never going to trust lab produced seeds.
As far as what the types are I should have talked more about F2s/polyhybrids/S1s. In many ways they're very similar so long as the selfed plant is a hybrid. It's where you see all the variability of the cross so you can get mix and match traits from the original parents. So say you have two plants and you want three different traits from each of them, you cross them and find you only have hybrids of the 6 traits so you cross the two best F1s and hope to find a plant with the 6 desired characteristics. Since you have a 1 in 4 chance of a plant having the desired trait compared to the hybrid or other pure trait you're going to need to pop 4^6 which is 2048 plants. If some of those traits are hybrid traits the numbers drop by a factor of two for each one. But it still involves planting more beans to find a single plant than the average personal grower will plant in their entire growing career. There's a reason we call clone only plants clone only.
As far as paying for F2s unless the original F1s are no longer available you would need to buy so many of them that you'd be better off buying a few packs of the F1s and making the F2s yourself. If you want to do pheno hunts of that size you might as well preserve your work in seed form. Goodness knows you'd be doing more than the majority of people selling seeds these days.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Lots of people release "clone only" strains in se-ed form. . .that's not exactly the same thing as making true clones (ie identical genetic copies of a hybrid) in se-ed form. The first thing can be done with conventional breeding. The second requires serious genetic manipulation, not that dissimilar to cloning other species, and I'm fairly skeptical that this is being done in a relatively low-tech private setting.
Instead of speculating further, I'd love to learn more about what they are actually doing here. Do you have a link or reference on this you can cite?
Well, as a matter of practice, there are plenty of American "clone only" strains in Europe. You're right its hard to smuggle them in, but its certainly not impossible. Again, people smuggle hundreds of kilos of illegal drugs into and out of European countries all the time. Compared to that, a few teensy cuttings should be "child's play", and certainly easier than say, manipulating an organisms genome!
You don't really need "full legalization"; we're never going back to the days when all cannabis is treated like hemp and anyone can possess, grow, sell, or trade as much of it as they like. You just need a legal climate where anyone can legally possess as many se-eds as they like and grow decent numbers of plants.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Well, any IBL x a different IBL will make "an F1". . .it just may not make one that the traits typically associated with high quality drug F1s (eg hybrid vigor, etc), and I think that's what you're really getting at here.
Well Serious is "serious", Simon is a real breeder, and for him quality takes precedence over quantity. Making "lines" is trivial. . .making quality STRAINS. . .that's difficult.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
I get you now.i didnt really make myself clear. i want to offer my creations to the public, and offer them in regs and fems. me personally want regs but some strains are only fems or s1. breeder in training wheels over here
I think what you might think about is what you'd like to see in terms of strains in the commercial market that don't exist, then fill that niche. The last thing anyone really needs right now is another variant of OG Kush x whatever, yet that's what probably 70% of the breeders are putting out.
Putting this a little different, you asked what the "community" preferred.
My answer is that if you're a breeder, your goal should be to put out quality lines. If you do that, the "community" will buy them, irrespective of the exact genetic label that applies.
FactsorDie
New Member
JOGRO what clone onlys do you have? What crosses have you created? You push your opinion as facts with your long posts. Its one thing to be a wise mentor but your pushing it with your opinions. Seed isnt spelled se-ed, Green crack s1 isnt a F2, you dont know 10% of what Tom Hill does, serious seeds arent top level genetics they use to be, F2s arent junk pollen chucks there apart of the breeding steps, could go on and on about your opinions that arent facts, and last of all Jogro please dont post your long opinionated posts claiming them as FACTS.
FactsorDie
New Member
Actually S1s act like F3....better get back to reading....
"the method of reproduction does matter, just not in the way many would like to hypothesize. A selfed plant is on average equal to the same plant brought to f3, by way of male/female breeding. So we can't really say it doesn't matter, just that most folk are way off in the direction in which it matters." TOM HILL
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
We're talking hypothetically. He's talking reality - because most plants are stable for a few traits at least whereas a true F1 (which may actually only be hypothetical in practice anyway) would be unlikely stable for any in an F2.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
There's a name for the technique they are using also. It was in a thread on ICmag with a wiki link. I'm a bit tired to recall it at the moment and/or search for it.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
I am not so worried about the pedigree, its nice to have a wide selection of plants to find one or two i like
i do try to avoid these very complex hybrids as they often grow funny and lack vigor
its so nice to grow something like NLxSK#1 i grew this again recently for the first time in about 15 years
the vigor compared to all these newer fancy strains is a joy to behold
growing your own s1's or seeds can be great for finding vigorous plants they only need to be grown for 3 weeks to test for early vigor
germinate 100 seeds and find maybe just 10 or so that will show great vigor
peace
i do try to avoid these very complex hybrids as they often grow funny and lack vigor
its so nice to grow something like NLxSK#1 i grew this again recently for the first time in about 15 years
the vigor compared to all these newer fancy strains is a joy to behold
growing your own s1's or seeds can be great for finding vigorous plants they only need to be grown for 3 weeks to test for early vigor
germinate 100 seeds and find maybe just 10 or so that will show great vigor
peace
theexpress
Well-Known Member
inbred lines are most consistent....
greenghost420
Well-Known Member
my goal when first starting was to create ibls. still is as when i get a pack i would like most to at least resemble what i paid for. if not they should come with a disclaimer: warning this is an unstable poly, odds you get what your looking for 1 in 500...lol
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
Consistency is a good thing when i share a similar "taste" or preference for particular traits with the breeder of a strain
i would rather have multiple vigorous prototypes to select from and make my own selections based on my own taste
rather than selection based in part or solely on origin of the strain
peace
i would rather have multiple vigorous prototypes to select from and make my own selections based on my own taste
rather than selection based in part or solely on origin of the strain
peace
greenghost420
Well-Known Member
anybody know anything about swerves sfv f5 or f4 males? anywhere i can see his selection process?
Jogro
Well-Known Member
That's very insightful of you. Since you seem not to be aware of why I spell the word that way, the point of the "-" is to avoid the board sponsor autolinker. Sometimes I also use "ceed" but I think its a little "cilly" and mostly stopped doing that.
Well I can't prove that it is, but its my conjecture and I'll explain why I believe it. The issue here is that the parents of Green Crack aren't really known (at least not to the general public); they're supposedly Skunk #1 x "Unknown CA indica". If both parents are inbred, then Green Crack is a true F1 and therefore Green Crack x Green Crack (rev) would genetically be an F2.
Since Green Crack S1 most definitely DOES turn purple (this has been observed by two breeders who sell it, and multiple growers including myself) I've speculated that the strain probably has a strong purple genetic background, and the "unknown CA" indica in question is probably Mendo Purple which fits the description and timeline. By the above, that would make Green Crack S1 an F2. Even if the parents of GC aren't truly inbred, CGS1 would still satisfy the looser defintion of "F2" that a lot of people use.
With due respect, you don't know what my background is, nor what I know.
If Mr. Hill wishes to respond to my posts and correct me, I'd be honored to take the correction from him. I'd especially love to hear what's going on in his lab and what he's trying to do there. But assuming you're not his designated representative, its not really clear why you presume to speak for him.
I think the quality of his genetics are a question of opinion, but I don't think anyone would claim that Simon isn't a knowledgeable and disciplined breeder.
Perhaps you missed the part where I said they were part of normal breeding? Here it is again:
Note that I specified TRUE F2s, here, meaning plants two generations away from IBLs. Those will have maximal phenotypic variability and IMO that makes them unsuitable for home growing, DESPITE the fact that there "should" be excellent individual plants within the F2 generation. The reason, why nobody should be paying for these is because there are plenty of WORKED quality lines out there in the marketplace, and nobody should be paying breeders to do the work they're supposed to be doing before bringing strains to the marketplace.
Since, again, you seem to be missing something here, let me point out that the term "IMO" (used by myself multiple times in the posts you're referring to), means "In my opinion". In fact, I am posting my opinions as opinions. Regardless, if you don't care to see my opinions or read my posts, feel free to use the board "ignore" feature so I don't take up any more of your valuable time.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
How they "act" is a different question that the proper way to classify them genetically. You can't generalize this for all S1s because it depends on the genetic background of the S1 parent.
But if the parent is an F1, the S1 is the same as F1 x F1 and is genetically an F2.
Law of "averages" means half of S1s will NOT be "equal" to F3s, but again, how these things behave a different question than how to classify them genetically.
The reason S1s are potentially better than conventional opposite gender bred F1s or F2s is because BOTH the S1's parents (ie its parent) have been highly selected for all the desirable traits you're after. Its a much "tighter" selection.