Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
No Isomerization is a different thang and we do that with Sulfuric Acid.
Isolating Terpenoids / Re-introduction to finished extracts
- Thread starter CellarGrows
- Start date
Daub Marley
Active Member
Saybian did the condensed terpenes smell identical to the original scent? I thought I read somewhere that they smell differently.
SaybianTv
Active Member
You mean this glob of emulsified stuff I've never been able to seperate out? At times I find it hard to say smells the same as the flowers when I've never smelled flowers with their pure trich heads isolated from all the smells comming from the plant material so I can only say smells like if i took this smell, removed the plant part then concentrate it 10 x it smells like that.....
Due to my Tek anything that's lossed get's suspended in water so I can see the fuckers but I havn't been able to get them push out of the solution in water so I could possibly pipette it off. Basicaly I gave up and move onto to better extraction methods to grab more flavour via a partial soak and going things like a second wash of the plant material with a polar solvent like ethanol. If I get same color I mixed the two in the hopes the etoh grabbed what the non polar didn't but also to wash as much of the non polar solvent out of the plant material for later recovery.
Vac Purge in me I guess, minimize losses for investment-less gain.
Due to my Tek anything that's lossed get's suspended in water so I can see the fuckers but I havn't been able to get them push out of the solution in water so I could possibly pipette it off. Basicaly I gave up and move onto to better extraction methods to grab more flavour via a partial soak and going things like a second wash of the plant material with a polar solvent like ethanol. If I get same color I mixed the two in the hopes the etoh grabbed what the non polar didn't but also to wash as much of the non polar solvent out of the plant material for later recovery.
Vac Purge in me I guess, minimize losses for investment-less gain.
Daub Marley
Active Member
Yeah your terp slime. Does it smell like herb at all? I read concentrated terpenes from cannabis smell like pinesol or lysol or something. For some reason it doesn't like herb. I could be mistaken though, so I wanted to get your opinion and make sure I'm not just getting garbage info or misremembering.
How and Why does your tek use water? Pardon me for being a newb and knowing very little, but I've never heard of that before.
SaybianTv
Active Member
It comes up here, scroll to the last photos you'll see a separatory funnel.
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/hexane-honey-oil-extraction-and-alchemy/
The hole thing smells of concentrated hydrosol so I dunno the slime from the water. What I do know is like rose water, it's delicious and invigorating at least the bubba kush was I don't like UBC chemo hydrosol. Most of it I use as fabric softener since I have tonnes since i failed to get them back.
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/hexane-honey-oil-extraction-and-alchemy/
The hole thing smells of concentrated hydrosol so I dunno the slime from the water. What I do know is like rose water, it's delicious and invigorating at least the bubba kush was I don't like UBC chemo hydrosol. Most of it I use as fabric softener since I have tonnes since i failed to get them back.
SaybianTv
Active Member
WAIT i just realized what i said makes it look like im drinking emulsified hexane water. I'm not I just eluded to how im using water in my link, but the water in my photo doesn't have salt in it nor hexane.
That photo is me trying to distill flavor off of oil to put back on the oil after vac but never getting there only getting hydrosol. You don't need this to make concentrates
Daub Marley
Active Member
Okay that explains it. You were trying to remove your terpenes before vacuum purging then add them back in. Are you stuck with a hydrosol solution and now you don't know what to do with it? How did you originally plan on separating the terps from the water?
SaybianTv
Active Member
ethanol, but it doesnt make sense to me how more alcohol in water pushes oil out of water, all i got was a funnel of azeotrope water that ate up my ethanol. hydrosols are the aromatics that dont form oil in normal distillation. all the water smells like flowers it was in my mind the snot was monoterps but i cant fish it apart. i once spat it all into a pyrex but it evaporated away as they were doing way back in the grow room
Daub Marley
Active Member
You know something doesn't make sense to me with concentrates. The terps are located inside the trichome, are non-polar, and heavier than butane, so why are they being lost in the process? It seems that the solvent based extraction process can never concentrate the terpenes like the way it can with general resin/oil. What I mean is that the terpene content should be concentrated to the same degree as the resin, and I have never had, seen, or made any concenrate that came close except for dry ice hash. I have tried with and without vacuum, alcohol, butane. etc. but nothing works to the degree that it should. The trichome in its natural state has a waxy coating that keeps the terpenes intact until it gets too hot, gets rutured through grazing, touched, bugs etc. The fact that the raw trichomes have the smell but solvent based extraction do not leads me to believe that the solvent carries away the terpenes when it dissolves the waxy layer. That is my guess anyways. The dry ice hash method ruptures a lot of heads in the process but they are not all dissolved. It being a cold process holds more terpenes than just sieving at room temp (kief). Thoughts?
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
It is duck soup extracting the terpenes with any number of different solvents, it is holding on to them during purge that is the trick. The lighter monoterpenes are things like alcohols, ethers, aldehydes, ketones, esters, and carboxylic acids, with high vapor pressure at ambient temperatures. The reason that they smell up a room, is that they are casting off so many molecules to collide with our nose buds.
It isn't necessary to hold on to retain all the monoterpenes, only enough, and too many tastes like hammered crap. They aren't as concentrated in the plant, and to smell and taste like the plant, they don't have to be highly concentrated.
Some of the monoterpenes are also expectorants, like Pinene for instance, and concentrating them too much, makes for a harsher vapor, with attendant coughing.
I prefer an extract that retains enough monoterpenes to smell and taste like the material that it came out of, not one that smells and tastes like Pinesol.
Daub Marley
Active Member
Hmmm. So the monoterpenes are chiefly responsible for the scent characteristics. Makes sense since they have higher vapor pressure, but would you happen to know how some of the heavier terpenes with a smaller % of total vapor pressure effect the scent? I'm guessing the skunk smell is a thiol and its smell would be a very minor constituent (ppb) but greatly alters the scent.
For me its not about just taste. I think that by dabbing I am wasting a lot of the psychoactive effects because the terpene levels in concentrates are not the same as in its natural form. A concentrate from 1 oz of herb is not going to be equal to 1 oz of natural herb, but you know all this.
So if I were able to concentrate the terpene content enough it would change the scent characteristics? Why exactly? I want a concentrate that actually concentrates the psychoactive effects of the terpenes and the exact smell of the original material to the same degree as other psychoactive cannabinoids (~10x) is this possible?
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, never had it tested, wish I did. The scent/aroma of the mj is not in oil extracts, or at least it should not be. Some of the flavors, but not the aroma. There is a lot of stuff in the red oil. I sure wish I knew all that was in it. I can surely tell the aroma is in there. It has a very concentrated scent to it.
I used the waste product from making RSO. I let it get bone dry, all the alcohol evaporated. It took a good week for that. Then I did a water extraction to obtain the red oil, water soluble. I am sure that there is some beneficial use for the red oil, but just do not know what it would be. All I did was repeat the RSO making procedures and instead of using alcohol, I used water. Again, this was using the waste product after making RSO.
Many of these things that have been spoken of in this thread are probably in our trash, leftovers after making oil.
Here is a picture of it frozen in a shot glass, and a picture of it completed with all of the water evaporated. I did this little experiment back in 2011.
Red oil from the plant = water soluble. THC oil from the plant = oil soluble.
Edit: I suppose you could mix the two oils together with some coconut oil and put it into capsules. The red oil tastes really gross. I just threw the red oil I made out. I figured since it is water soluble it would probably grow mold. Not sure what I would have it tested for though.
I used the waste product from making RSO. I let it get bone dry, all the alcohol evaporated. It took a good week for that. Then I did a water extraction to obtain the red oil, water soluble. I am sure that there is some beneficial use for the red oil, but just do not know what it would be. All I did was repeat the RSO making procedures and instead of using alcohol, I used water. Again, this was using the waste product after making RSO.
Many of these things that have been spoken of in this thread are probably in our trash, leftovers after making oil.
Here is a picture of it frozen in a shot glass, and a picture of it completed with all of the water evaporated. I did this little experiment back in 2011.
Red oil from the plant = water soluble. THC oil from the plant = oil soluble.
Edit: I suppose you could mix the two oils together with some coconut oil and put it into capsules. The red oil tastes really gross. I just threw the red oil I made out. I figured since it is water soluble it would probably grow mold. Not sure what I would have it tested for though.
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
If you do a QWET and follow up with a water wash, you will end up with red waxes and oil in that last wash. They are insoluble in alcohol and low in cannabinoids, so we haven't done much with them.
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
The sesquiterpenes have some odor, like berry aromas for instance, but the diterpene cannabinoids have very little odor.
Actually, the monterpenes are concentrated right along with the cannabinoids and many of them aren't that pleasant in heavy concentration, not to mention harsh to vaporize. From a taste and smell standpoint, it is better to keep the terpene level closer to that of the original plant.
From a medical standpoint, each terpene has its own properties, so will have to stand on its own merit. Some enhance cannabinoid effects and some block it.
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
I believe there is more in the red oil than just some plant waxes and few cannabinoids. Those few cannabinoids could be a key to curing some illnesses. Not to mention, virtually all of the aroma of the marijuana is in the red oil. It is also looking deeper in to it for this reason; tests have repeatedly been done and show the same thing, for some reason oil that contains water and oil soluble is more potent. Nobody has been able to answer why. How does one obtain this type of oil? The Shona Banda method. Vaporizing bud and collecting the residue from it contains both oils. I have listened to Rick on a radio show speak of this being more potent for currently unknown reasons. It could just be from the decarbing process, then again, it could be from the red oil.
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
Has Rick shared why he thinks it is more potent?
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
Last I knew they were still trying to figure it out. They were more focused on the decarbing process. My theory is that it has something to do with the red oil, which I first learned of through Shona Banda. I think she mentions it in her book, but I have not read it so I do not know for sure.
Other quality benefits from marijuana may be hidden. Example: I have heard of using roots from a male plant and making a tincture in a particular way. This is supposedly the best topical for pain relief.
The more I learn about marijuana it seems that every single aspect of the plant has serious benefits to mankind.
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
Since the red oil seems to carry the aroma or scent of the marijuana and only some of the flavor, going by this article it appears that many of the terpines and terpenoids are in the red oil, potentially. It mentions something about the terpines having an effect on how your body absorbs the THC, more or less. that is why I believe oil from vaporizing buds is more potent than oil that is only oil soluble, like RSO.
Just an opinion. This is why I wish I had the red oil tested. Not sure where I would have had that done though. The test I would be looking to have done would be for terpenes and terpenoids.
http://terpenes.weebly.com/
Just an opinion. This is why I wish I had the red oil tested. Not sure where I would have had that done though. The test I would be looking to have done would be for terpenes and terpenoids.
http://terpenes.weebly.com/
Daub Marley
Active Member
So the amount of terpenes present in the vapor or smoke of fresh natural cannabis is sort of the concentration limit before it becomes too harsh or nasty tasting? Or does this only apply to the monoterpenes? I know that not heating the vaporizer to a hot enough temp will produce a huge terpene hit that can be harsh and make me cough. I can't get any of my extractions to have an overpowering scent let alone to the point of concentration to be harsh. Were you able to make a high concentration of terpenes in your extract to make it harsh, or is your experience of terpene overload from the vaporizer as well?
I agree that the red has to do with the water soluble compounds in the extract. I will have red oil when I use alcohol as the solvent. I doubt it has anything to do with terpenes though, but anything is possible. The size of particles in suspension have a effect on the color. Gold nanoparticles of different sizes are different colors although I'm just spitballing.
Fadedawg
Well-Known Member
The sesquiterpenes have a more subtle odor (berry), while the di and tri terpene cannabinoids have very little odor
To have an extract that smells and tastes exactly like the parent material, you have to reduce the terpene level some.