I actually believe in God

[guy incognito]

[/COLOR]
If I'm free to decide my own moral code, then is not morality nothing more than a figment of a mans imagination? Whatever he feels is right? That's a troubling thought. Especially in regards to one who lacks empathy or has a perverted sense of empathy.



That is another major subject, my friend. You could start another thread on this question alone. Within my own studies, I have found the Bible rather devoid of situations that are unarguably immoral in the sense that I have always seen reasoning behind these situations. This is a widely controversial subject as not only do you have to decide if you believe in the validity of the Bible, but even if you do there is a great deal of difference in terms of interpretation between people. I mean just look at all the religious sects due to the disagreements of interpretation. I suppose this is were spiritual discernment would come into play, but if you do not believe in God then there is no such thing as spiritual discernment (in the sense I'm speaking of).

Interesting. Have you actually read the bible? How do you defend slavery? The murdering of innocents? The list of atrocities in the bible goes on and on. How anyone could defend it is beyond me.

 

[burgertime2010]

Having a "God Concept" is interesting in that it is so very ancient yet so very pervasive in humanity. Separated by oceans, desert, Ice, earlier humans came up with many omnipotent, divine characters that controlled or would answer the mysteries of existence. All religions would emerge from the need to know the impossible and human creative spirit finding God was the way to explain. In terms of morality, religious attention is not required and what is bad or good is innate. When we hurt someone....they cry....we feel bad. Any action that hurts another is immoral and we all can agree to that. I am not a religious man, I have many unanswered questions but in a sense that is my point. If someone had the answers in theology, why pursue ones intellect? I look at the world full of different ways and angles on God and few followers with his examples at the front. For many, faith is empowering and personal but it comes at a cost, the leap. When faith replaces reality, the earliest indication of mental disorder make itself shown. This pattern of interpretation is regressive, the "God" here grows into our logical mind and science might become a threat. To me, I look to find tools left by the ancients...advice, wisdom, and connection towards a more artful path. We, as humans, are presumptuous and self-important to a fault, to need God at all.....it is what "I don't know" blooms in to.

 

[Beefbisquit]

That's precisely it. Even with the huge population growth of humanity, we still retain the impulse toward altruism and helping out our fellow humans. It is a type of misfiring, I'll give an example. We often witness moths circle a flame and eventually fly into it, it seems an irrationally suicidal impulse so why would natural selection favor it? The reason why is that for millions of years, moths evolved to use the moon to navigate the planet in semi-circular patterns. Before man there was no flame except for the relatively rare occurrences where nature would produce a lightening strike, or the sun would shine down uninterrupted on a parched field, etc.. Humanity came along and produced purposeful fires nightly and then went on to create artificial light. The moth still has that navigation system honed over millions of years to use the brightest object in the sky (the moon), so when seeing a flame, or artificial light, they navigate it in circular patterns until they eventually run right into it. They're not attempting suicide, just mistaking the flame for the moon. The same misfiring seems to be happening with the morality of humanity, our urge to altruism is a kind of misfiring of that same selected system to look out for other tribe members, even though most of humanity are no longer other members that could share our genes. As misfirings go, this seems to be a pleasant one...



The process of evolved morality I described isn't at an intellectual level, but a deeper emotional one...



I was just speaking about this concept with my son. If a healthy person walks into a hospital and there are ten people that would be saved if we sacrificed the one healthy individual and gave his organs to the ten dying patients, would that be moral? I'm glad we've decided it is not, an individual's rights to his own body trump the need of the many. No one would like to walk around in such a cannibalistic society where whatever you have can be taken based on another's need.

I'm sure you get the concept I conveyed about how most anyone can pick and choose the moral parts of the bible from the immoral ones, or god's moral actions from his immoral actions. How would we be able to do this unless our morality came from a source outside of those things? That's the million dollar question for you...

I love that thought experiment! For anyone else who hasn't heard of Phillipa Foot, I highly recommend reading her. She has some interesting views on deontological and utilitarian ethical views.

 

[Beefbisquit]

If I'm free to decide my own moral code, then is not morality nothing more than a figment of a mans imagination? Whatever he feels is right? That's a troubling thought. Especially in regards to one who lacks empathy or has a perverted sense of empathy.

Do you think a psychopath will follow an ethical guideline regardless of their religion, or lack of religion? I don't. A person with a perverted sense of empathy is most likely going to be a tyrant regardless of his ideology.

That is another major subject, my friend. You could start another thread on this question alone. Within my own studies, I have found the Bible rather devoid of situations that are unarguably immoral in the sense that I have always seen reasoning behind these situations.

You can see the reasoning behind evil in the bible, but not when good people do good things without religion.... lol Rationalization fail.

This is a widely controversial subject as not only do you have to decide if you believe in the validity of the Bible, but even if you do there is a great deal of difference in terms of interpretation between people. I mean just look at all the religious sects due to the disagreements of interpretation. I suppose this is were spiritual discernment would come into play, but if you do not believe in God then there is no such thing as spiritual discernment (in the sense I'm speaking of).

There is still discernment of actions. Why does there have to be some grand, spiritual meaning involved or order in order for morality to mean something? Just because something isn't 'cosmically objective' (from god) doesn't mean it isn't objectively good or bad. Murdering someone is objectively bad for that person. As humans we can come to this conclusion using logic and reasoning; something other animals are incapable of doing. When a lion kills another lion, it's not murder, but why? It's because lions are incapable of using reason to work out their differences. They act in the only way they know how to preserve the species which is fight for a mate. Humans are unique, in many ways and can offer unique solutions to non-unique problems via our larger, more complicated brains.

The other problem that needs to be addressed is that theists assume that atheists, given the chance, will always select the prudent choice, instead of the moral choice when given the option. This is demonstrably false. Just because the prudent choice might be beneficial doesn't mean the atheist will necessarily make that decision. Tyler pointed to an excellent thought experiment where it can easily be shown where the prudent choice (taking a single life to preserve 10) is morally reprehensible.

 

[burgertime2010]

The "need" served by a religion or god is part of the evolution into modern man. Darwin wrote about competition and the mechanisms that support self-interest, survival, and reproduction. Religion and mankind owe Darwin another look as the "adversary" becomes the "ally" as cooperation is born. The greater good, selflessness, community and empathy arose out of repeated interactions with intuition and intellect. Bound by a realization that groups survive and progress faster, the God idea, has torn and reassembled tribes and cultures into religions and made both enemy and ally practice cooperation over and over. Without this, our humble ape beginnings might have never found humanity.

 

[thcme]

Let me get this straight -- God is so insecure that we have to worship and praise him or essentially get left out? Heh, glad that's not my God

 

[MrACE]

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I do feel that you have to have faith in something (whatever it is) just to stay sane in this world...

 

[Greenkid777]

I'm going to try to answer your questions without quoting each persons reply (once again for the reservation of space).

A question common among you all is "how could I possibly over look the atrocities in the Bible?" It would help if you would tell me what passages you seem to be having trouble with. But what seems to be the instances your referring to is what atheists believe to be God's murder of innocents. The thing that I believe you don't realize is that God is not bound by the law as we are because he is not on the same level or the same type as being as we are. It is God's undeniable right to give and take life as he pleases, as he is the author. Just as you have ownership over your property and may do with it as you please, God would only logically have this power. This is were I think many people will be offended as they cannot possibly understand how that is "fair." Well the only thing I can really advise is for you to actually read through the Bible and stop taking passage out of context. Is it wrong for God to kill a man? Well is it wrong for you to kill an ant? (I can almost hear the hateful comments already). And if you view prophecy and God's nature as mainstream Christianity does, I could understand why this is a hard concept to grasp. But I feel that many people have misinterpreted the Bible. For instance, mainstream Christianity's view of heaven and hell makes no sense to me (and from what I've read isn't Biblical). And in regards to the question on slavery, I assume you are referring to the Israelite's practice of taking slaves. You do know that there was laws in place to force the freeing of slaves after a set time, as well as the fair treatment of slaves. The system was humane in my interpretation. And if you think freedom from slavery is one of the "achievements" of modern society, I have to disagree. They've only changed the name from being in slavery to being in debt. I know that this is not a sufficiently in depth answer but I would take up far to much space listing everything. (I encourage you to read the passages yourself within context).

And to answer your question THCME: Your kidding right? Are you actually saying that God should include all of those who disregard him? How would that make sense?

Thank you all for the discussion, I will reply again as soon as possible but it may not be for a week or two. I'm in the process of moving out to Colorado for the ski season.

 

[MojoRison]

A gods ownership, slavery??

And yet you speak of morality

 

[Beefbisquit]

I'm going to try to answer your questions without quoting each persons reply (once again for the reservation of space).

A question common among you all is "how could I possibly over look the atrocities in the Bible?" It would help if you would tell me what passages you seem to be having trouble with. But what seems to be the instances your referring to is what atheists believe to be God's murder of innocents.

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

I have a problem with that, for starters....

The thing that I believe you don't realize is that God is not bound by the law as we are because he is not on the same level or the same type as being as we are. It is God's undeniable right to give and take life as he pleases, as he is the author. Just as you have ownership over your property and may do with it as you please, God would only logically have this power.

Benevolence and malevolence exist, and based on gods impotence for stopping evil..... see where I'm going with this?

Do you have kids? If not, pretend you do for a moment. Is there anything that your offspring could do that would make you torture them for eternity? Think about that, infinite torture for finite crimes. How is that just, or rational, or compassionate, in any way? I wouldn't do that to my pets, let alone children.

This is were I think many people will be offended as they cannot possibly understand how that is "fair." Well the only thing I can really advise is for you to actually read through the Bible and stop taking passage out of context. Is it wrong for God to kill a man? Well is it wrong for you to kill an ant? (I can almost hear the hateful comments already).

I'm not claiming to be an infinitely loving, caring compassionate being. If I were, then yes, it would be wrong for me to kill an ant.

How can you possibly solve the cognitive dissonance caused by holding the conflicting views that 'god is the ultimate loving, caring, wonderful, most powerful being capable of anything, in existence' with the fact that human suffering is everywhere? He is either impotent to stop evil, or he doesn't care.

And if you view prophecy and God's nature as mainstream Christianity does, I could understand why this is a hard concept to grasp. But I feel that many people have misinterpreted the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.



According to the bible, the bible is not to be interpreted, it is as written.

For instance, mainstream Christianity's view of heaven and hell makes no sense to me (and from what I've read isn't Biblical). And in regards to the question on slavery, I assume you are referring to the Israelite's practice of taking slaves. You do know that there was laws in place to force the freeing of slaves after a set time, as well as the fair treatment of slaves.

By fair treatment do you mean that you couldn't beat them to death immediately, but if they died a few days later because of their wounds it was ok? Is that what you mean by fair?

Most slaves weren't freed after a set period of time. They were passed down from father to son, as long as the slave was still alive.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

The system was humane in my interpretation.

Totally humane. *sarcasm*

And if you think freedom from slavery is one of the "achievements" of modern society, I have to disagree. They've only changed the name from being in slavery to being in debt.

You don't have to be in debt. It's a choice, slavery is not a choice. They are, most demonstrably not the same thing.

I know that this is not a sufficiently in depth answer but I would take up far to much space listing everything. (I encourage you to read the passages yourself within context).

Thank you all for the discussion, I will reply again as soon as possible but it may not be for a week or two. I'm in the process of moving out to Colorado for the ski season.

Hopefully you can respond to my points this time.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I'm going to try to answer your questions without quoting each persons reply (once again for the reservation of space).

A question common among you all is "how could I possibly over look the atrocities in the Bible?" It would help if you would tell me what passages you seem to be having trouble with. But what seems to be the instances your referring to is what atheists believe to be God's murder of innocents. The thing that I believe you don't realize is that God is not bound by the law as we are because he is not on the same level or the same type as being as we are. It is God's undeniable right to give and take life as he pleases, as he is the author. Just as you have ownership over your property and may do with it as you please, God would only logically have this power. This is were I think many people will be offended as they cannot possibly understand how that is "fair." Well the only thing I can really advise is for you to actually read through the Bible and stop taking passage out of context. Is it wrong for God to kill a man? Well is it wrong for you to kill an ant? (I can almost hear the hateful comments already). And if you view prophecy and God's nature as mainstream Christianity does, I could understand why this is a hard concept to grasp. But I feel that many people have misinterpreted the Bible. For instance, mainstream Christianity's view of heaven and hell makes no sense to me (and from what I've read isn't Biblical). And in regards to the question on slavery, I assume you are referring to the Israelite's practice of taking slaves. You do know that there was laws in place to force the freeing of slaves after a set time, as well as the fair treatment of slaves. The system was humane in my interpretation. And if you think freedom from slavery is one of the "achievements" of modern society, I have to disagree. They've only changed the name from being in slavery to being in debt. I know that this is not a sufficiently in depth answer but I would take up far to much space listing everything. (I encourage you to read the passages yourself within context).

And to answer your question THCME: Your kidding right? Are you actually saying that God should include all of those who disregard him? How would that make sense?

Thank you all for the discussion, I will reply again as soon as possible but it may not be for a week or two. I'm in the process of moving out to Colorado for the ski season.

So you can't see the potential danger of a dogma demanding blind obedience and worship to a god that can never be wrong?

 

[tyler.durden]

Amen, Hitch. Man, I miss this guy...

[video=youtube;X--lX3cQMJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X--lX3cQMJ8[/video]

 

[ThE sAtIvA hIgH]

The stupid thing is ,this guy is saying we wouldn't have morals etc without a god to tell us hat they are , but if we actually took our morals from the bible for instance we would be living in a barbaric world , where we stone gays to death , and crucifying people for working on a sunday , and the biggest point is people did actually use to live like that in the time the bible was wrote , but we as humans have grown to know that all these bad things are wrong and shouldnt happen , so we dont do them anymore , and we didnt have a god tell us that these things were wrong we came to that conclusion as a society.

 

[Padawanbater2]

If you followed your life according to the Bible, today, you would be in federal prison

Devine my ass

 

[skunkd0c]

The stupid thing is ,this guy is saying we wouldn't have morals etc without a god to tell us hat they are , but if we actually took our morals from the bible for instance we would be living in a barbaric world , where we stone gays to death , and crucifying people for working on a sunday , and the biggest point is people did actually use to live like that in the time the bible was wrote , but we as humans have grown to know that all these bad things are wrong and shouldnt happen , so we dont do them anymore , and we didnt have a god tell us that these things were wrong we came to that conclusion as a society.

Do you think we have any morals or value for life as soon as we are born
or do you think we need to learn it

i guess Tarzan was a bit of a savage with only apes for a society
but would a human with no other contact hold any vale for the life of another, or would they be able to feel empathy

i would like to think there is a core of goodness somewhere in humans that is a natural instinct
but i see no real evidence for this, rather it seems we are blank and waiting to be programmed for either good or bad

peace

 

[Padawanbater2]

Do you think we have any morals or value for life as soon as we are born
or do you think we need to learn it

i guess Tarzan was a bit of a savage with only apes for a society
but would a human with no other contact hold any vale for the life of another, or would they be able to feel empathy

i would like to think there is a core of goodness somewhere in humans that is a natural instinct
but i see no real evidence for this, rather it seems we are blank and waiting to be programmed for either good or bad

peace

If that wasn't the case, why would lower primates band together in small communities?

 

[Prawn Connery]

Because serving the collective serves the individual. Pretty simple, really. Within those communities, there's always a "top dog" and a lot of self-serving ambition to get there. Not so moral now, are they?

 

[Pepe le skunk]

No evidence that there is a god or the devil or a heaven or hell. If you want to find out why you believe and how your mind works try reading the God delusion by richard Dawkins. THe bible was written and rewritten by kings and rulers trying to control people for the last 2000 years. Watch the new show on history channel about the bible. It might just open your eyes. Also watch science channel to help explain the world and universe.
The best evidence that god does not exist is the bible and history. Any idea why so many people where killed because of religion the world over? Every war ever fought was because of religion in one way or another. Good luck

 

[PetFlora]

Which god... Enki (good), Enlil (bad- the current group NWO movement) their father Anu, or the great creator of the universe, who is not a being, but a consciousness?

Mind blown? I offer you Gerald Clark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NwpeWPg90

 

[Padawanbater2]

Because serving the collective serves the individual. Pretty simple, really. Within those communities, there's always a "top dog" and a lot of self-serving ambition to get there. Not so moral now, are they?

Lower primates are not capable of having such cognitive thoughts as far as we know. They don't think about banding together in communities, they do it on instinct because it increases their chances to survive.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make