Plants in shock for a seriously loooong time

[Glaucoma]

New MJ grower here, need some advice. I've prowled for a long time, reading a lot of stuff. I have access to whatever I need to get it right, except a DO meter. I'd really like one, but they are just too expensive.

You all should get a kick out of this, I know I have. I started out not really caring very much, but now I find that I do and want them to grow!

I was given some clones that were said to be great white shark crossed with white widow.. or something like that. Very healthy clones. I put them into a DWC setup (hydroton in 6" netpots) and hung some t8's over them. They did pretty well for a few weeks, and I topped them trying to bush them out. Then, one day, they just kinda stopped growing. I suspect it was because the humidity began hovering at 20%. Then they started to wilt. I thought, oh well. I just sort of let them be, and they have been like this for a good 6 or 8 weeks now. They won't die and they won't grow. So, a couple of weeks ago I decided to actually try and bring them back to life. I hung a 400W MH over them. I added a humidifier. Still nothing. The plants are maybe 8" tall and the roots aren't all that well developed. I have them sitting in just straight water now with some voodoo juice. Before that they were in AN sensi grow with b-52 and voodoo juice at .8 EC. They showed a little bit of burn. I have 2 of the 3 original clones. Lost the one a long time ago.

The details:

Res temp: 68F now and holding, but was averaging 72-73F when I didn't care as much.
canopy temp: Peaks at about 85, down to 78.
Lights on 24/7
Humidity: usually between 40-60%, using a humidifier.
Water: RO @ 6.0ph
Xtrasun vented hood hung about 10" overhead, but I just pull air through it and into the grow space.
Bathroom fan in the ceiling for exhaust, always running.
Small little desk fan blowing at the light to kick the heat away. Another fan in the room to stir everything up.
lots of aeration in the tote (27 gallon, insulated and light proof, running 15 gallons of water)
net pots are about 2" above water line, and there are roots in the water.

I think that about covers it all.
From what I've read here, this all seems to be in the ideal range now, which is what I aimed for. Really the only thing that changed was the humidity. Now I make sure it stays in the above range.

The leaves for the most part are still green, maybe a little bit lime. But they have been wilted forever. The roots are brown, but no signs of rot or slime.

Are they a lost cause after this long? What sucks is getting more clones will be unlikely where I am. I started to germinate some bagseed so I can get a good grow under my belt without having to worry about killing a good and expensive set of clones.
Is there anything I can do besides what I've done? Should I dim the light? It's just a cheap apollo 400. I can go 50%, 75%.
I have some superthrive.. but I'm thinking just straight water is best.

Sorry, no pics. But trust me, they are wilted, and have been for quite some time. I figure the best course of action is to address the wilting first, then start feeding them again. Does that sound right? Besides the AN sensi grow, I also have some fox farm hydroponic grow big.

Any suggestions? Throw them away? haha!

Thanks

 

[zubey91]

Is this your first grow? Pretty gutsy to try a dwc grow your first time if it is.

 

[Glaucoma]

Yes, it is. But if I can maintain ideal conditions, I figure why not?

 

[AimAim]

Yes, it is. But if I can maintain ideal conditions, I figure why not?

Seems like you can't though.

I'd stick some seeds in soil and learn the plant first before you branch out into hydro.

 

[ButchyBoy]

I did three grows in water. One was DWC and the other was a flooded tube. PH is huge in hydro and the closer to 5.8 you can keep it the better. Mine would set at 6.0 and naturally drop to 5.? over night. I got tired of babysitting the res's so now I grow in soil.

How much air do you have being pumped into the water? What size air stones? You do have air going into the water right????


The wilting sounds like over water.. I know, they live in water. That is why I ask about air! The roots need that air. Rinse the roots off. The brown should rinse off and if it doesn't you probably have the slime. Are you using anything to break down the old root material such as cannazym???? how about a root stimulant such as Rhizotonic??? (sorry about the Canna line reference. It is what I use). How often do you change the water in the rez???

You should have abundant root growth on a 8 inch plant. My DWC plants at 8 inches would have approximately 24 inch roots!!! At 16 inches of plant the roots would be 3-4 feet long!!!!

 

[Glaucoma]

Seems like you can't though.

I'd stick some seeds in soil and learn the plant first before you branch out into hydro.

With the exception of the humidity, it looks ideal to me, especially after ditching the floros. When it started out, the humidity was fine. Then it cooled off outside and got a lot drier and I did nothing to correct it. Now I have. Clearly my mistake, and one I won't repeat.

If I learn this in soil though, won't I have to pretty much throw all that away when I go back to hydro? Things like feeding schedules and specific problems inherent to the style? Each method has it's own approach, and this is the method I want to ultimately use. I think every method has a specific learning curve. Hydro just seems to me to be a higher up front cost.

Not trying to be a smartass, but if you know the plant already, I'd love to hear a suggestion on what if anything else I can do to help it recover. Or if it's just a lost cause.

 

[Glaucoma]

I did three grows in water. One was DWC and the other was a flooded tube. PH is huge in hydro and the closer to 5.8 you can keep it the better. Mine would set at 6.0 and naturally drop to 5.? over night. I got tired of babysitting the res's so now I grow in soil.

How much air do you have being pumped into the water? What size air stones? You do have air going into the water right????


The wilting sounds like over water.. I know, they live in water. That is why I ask about air! The roots need that air. Rinse the roots off. The brown should rinse off and if it doesn't you probably have the slime. Are you using anything to break down the old root material such as cannazym???? how about a root stimulant such as Rhizotonic??? (sorry about the Canna line reference. It is what I use). How often do you change the water in the rez???

You should have abundant root growth on a 8 inch plant. My DWC plants at 8 inches would have approximately 24 inch roots!!! At 16 inches of plant the roots would be 3-4 feet long!!!!

I have 2 good sized air pumps pushing a cheap aquarium stone from Walmart under each pot. I also have a powerhead pump that sucks in air and stirs everything around. This is why I really wish I could justify the cost of a dissolved oxygen meter. The surface of the water is constantly moving and churning.

The weakest of the 2 plants have roots that are maybe 12" long, the stronger one has twice that, but for DWC, I feel they are both lacking root structure. While the stongest one might be long in the roots, there really isn't much mass to them as a whole. Seems pretty stringy. The brown does not wash off, but they are not soft and don't turn to mush or just fall off, so I believe they were just stained from the B-52. I've always had beneficial bacteria in the solution (voodoo juice) and the temps never got above 75F in the water. I've added an ice probe and now it's regulated at a constant 68F. The probe is on the opposite side of the tote as the plants are, and the pump is directed in such a way that no roots will ever touch the probe.

I change the water once a week.
I do not have an enzyme currently, no. As far as root stimulants, I have b-52 and superthrive, but neither is in the solution right now, just water and voodoo juice.
I started out with fox farms grow big but moved to ph perfect sensi grow hobby level because I didn't want to worry about ph. That's when the roots went brown.

now that it's in just straight water, I don't have any trouble keeping the ph stable, which indicates that there is no rot going on from what I've read. I will bump it down to 5.8

 

[AimAim]

If I learn this in soil though, won't I have to pretty much throw all that away when I go back to hydro? Things like feeding schedules and specific problems inherent to the style? Each method has it's own approach, and this is the method I want to ultimately use. I think every method has a specific learning curve.

Not trying to be a smartass, but if you know the plant already, I'd love to hear a suggestion on what if anything else I can do to help it recover. Or if it's just a lost cause.

I know the plant but I don't do hydro so can't really offer suggestions but I wouldn't consider it a lost cause.

And you won't throw everything you learned away if you switch methods. Many pilots learn in a Cessna 150 and end up flying fighter jets or 747's. All the principles of flight still apply !

I wasn't trying to be a smartass either (maybe just a little) but growing plants in a quality buffered soil is relatively foolproof and way more forgiving than any hydro setup I've seen. Might not get the yield or speed of hydro, but it's encouraging to have some success your first few grows to instill confidence.

Best of luck - AIM

 

[Glaucoma]

I know the plant but I don't do hydro so can't really offer suggestions but I wouldn't consider it a lost cause.

And you won't throw everything you learned away if you switch methods. Many pilots learn in a Cessna 150 and end up flying fighter jets or 747's. All the principles of flight still apply !

I wasn't trying to be a smartass either (maybe just a little) but growing plants in a quality buffered soil is relatively foolproof and way more forgiving than any hydro setup I've seen. Might not get the yield or speed of hydro, but it's encouraging to have some success your first few grows to instill confidence.

Best of luck - AIM

I understand where you are coming from. Saul Goodman. lol "It's all good, man"

I will maintain the conditions I have now and just wait, I guess. Hopefully they will pull out of this slump. I am really tempted to add some superthrive, but the instructions only mention adding a tablespoon per gallon for stressed trees. It also says "Do not use other water on plants for 24 hours after application", which obviously can't happen. Anybody have thoughts on that?

Like I posted before, I'm using just water plus beneficial bacteria and trying to address the wilting first. Should I be feeding them? Maybe 1/4 strength? One of them looks hungry for sure, and the other won't be far behind.

 

[topfuel29]

were the clones rooted in soil when you got them?
You say you have RO water pH 6.0, what is the pH of your Nutreint solution? How long does it take to rebound up to @ pH 6.2?
Are you adding alot of oxygen with a air pump or something?
68-F is getting low. temp range. 65-80-F You should bring the temp up some.
You should clean your system with H2O2 solution every 7-10 day when you change your nutrient solution.
The cleaner the better.

You could try running water for 24hrs see if you plant perks up. Nice thing about hydro if you get into a problem you can always run H2O for a while, and the plant perks up.
If your nutreint solution pH is good, and your nutrient solution temp is good you should be good.
The other thing to worry about is PPM if that gets to high you get into problems.

Take some pictures.

 

[Glaucoma]

The clones were not rooted in soil when I got them, but a spongy grow plug. This was a long, long, time ago.

Since I was using AN sensi grow with ph perfect, the ph did not drift, so I don't have an answer for you there. Currently with just water and voodoo juice, the ph has not moved. It has been 3 days now of just water + voodoo juice (beneficial bacteria) and there have been no signs of improvement. They both show clear signs of deficiency, one in particular looks quite runty and hungry. My train of thought at this point is to address the wilting first though, but I have no experience. I believe the low 20% humidity they were in for so long closed the stomata and stopped them from transpiration. At least that's the theory I'm working with. They have been in 40-60% for 2 weeks now.

You feel 68 is too low? I read that a lot of people don't like to go over 75 due to reasons of root rot and oxygen exchange, with a lot of people running 65 and 68. What would you think is the BEST temp for me to set in this case? I can regulate it. I know wamer temps promote root growth, but after all of the horror stories I've seen about rot I thought 68 would be best. For the longest time, it was around 73 before I got myself a regulator, and everything was still droopy, however, they were being fed at that time.

When I mix up the solution, I mix it in the 5 gallon containers and then ph it in the case of fox farms. That stuff is really acidic. I also wait for the solution to cool off since the RO water is usually in the 80's when I bring it home. With sensi grow, I do everything the same except I don't bother with the ph adjustment. I always completely mix one part at a time.

ppms when I fed them were worked up to .8 EC, so x500 or x700 depending on what scale you use. 400ppm and 560 respectively. At this level with Sensi Grow, they did burn a bit. They were fed Sensi Grow for the majority of their lives.

Even though I use beneficial bacteria, I should clean with H2O2 at every change? But just the container, right? I will give it a shot in the next res change. I have some 29% and nothing to lose at this point.

Now, mind you they've been droopy for many many weeks. But they just won't die. I think they are a lost cause after being like this for so incredibly long, but I would love for them to bounce back. I'm holding on to like a 5% chance they recover. Prognosis: Negative!

Ok, I will try to post pictures later today, I'm just really embarrassed by them. haha. They are seriously pathetic for their age and I fear the negative "OMG, you're an idiot" replies. Guess I'll just have to get over it.

I have some bagseed that has germinated now and I'm waiting for them to sprout. I think if I can't get these to recover before the sprouts are ready, I'm just going to trash them.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Glaucoma]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate those who attempted to help. I somehow managed to arrange for a fresh start, so I'm just going to pull these and trash them. The next round will be put into a grow journal so that those with the experience can give guidance and suggestions immediately if needed. I've learned that every detail matters in DWC, and to correct problems asap for sure. I will not lolligag around next time.

Thanks again, fellas.