Door to door christian, have a date, need help.

[guy incognito]

Actually that response was to your post.

So let me get this straight. You said this:

Those passages in evilbible will be so easy to defend against. I was reading some of them and they are just rediculous in their assumptions.

So I responded with this:

How do you defend these:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Those sound pretty terrible and damning.

And you responded with this:

The Jews were supposed to be a holy people set apart for god. They were the chosen holy people and the laws were to keep them holy.

So if a man lies with another man as with a woman they both have to be put to death? And you honestly believe this passage is easy to defend by saying that jews are supposed to be a holy people (yeah, talk about making ridiculous assumptions, but anyway) and the laws (about killing gay people) are there to protect them?

If that is the case you are a certifiable nut case and I have no interest in continuing a conversation with you.

 

[Flaming Pie]

So let me get this straight. You said this:



So I responded with this:



And you responded with this:



So if a man lies with another man as with a woman they both have to be put to death? And you honestly believe this passage is easy to defend by saying that jews are supposed to be a holy people (yeah, talk about making ridiculous assumptions, but anyway) and the laws (about killing gay people) are there to protect them?

If that is the case you are a certifiable nut case and I have no interest in continuing a conversation with you.

The laws were to keep them holy. They were supposed to be holy and perfect for their god. It's not about their earthly existance. It was about their eternal soul.

To have ANY sex outside of marriage was a sin. So yes adultery and homosexuality was sex outside of marriage (by gods definition) and was a sin against god.

It's not as if these people couldn't reject their faith and live elsewhere. There were other people besides the jewish that didn't follow the laws of Leviticus.

 

[guy incognito]

The laws were to keep them holy. They were supposed to be holy and perfect for their god. It's not about their earthly existance. It was about their eternal soul.

To have ANY sex outside of marriage was a sin. So yes adultery and homosexuality was sex outside of marriage (by gods definition) and was a sin against god.

It's not as if these people couldn't reject their faith and live elsewhere. There were other people besides the jewish that didn't follow the laws of Leviticus.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

No where in that passage does it qualify that the law should only be applied to christians or people that believe in this specific god. On the contrary it instructs followers to murder gay people regardless of the gay persons denomination. You have given an absolutely terrible justification to defend that quote. In fact you have used circular reasoning to arrive at your answer, so it's not even a real response as far as i'm concerned.

Also you are pointing out how cruel and petty god is. Not exactly what you should be doing if your intent is to defend the position.

 

[Flaming Pie]

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

No where in that passage does it qualify that the law should only be applied to christians or people that believe in this specific god. On the contrary it instructs followers to murder gay people regardless of the gay persons denomination. You have given an absolutely terrible justification to defend that quote. In fact you have used circular reasoning to arrive at your answer, so it's not even a real response as far as i'm concerned.

Also you are pointing out how cruel and petty god is. Not exactly what you should be doing if your intent is to defend the position.

The Laws of Leviticus applied to the jewish people. The punishments and requirements of Leviticus ONLY applied to those who among them.

There were many people all over the world doing whatever they please and were not stoned to death because of Leviticus.

 

[NietzscheKeen]

I was raised Baptist. Ask them about once saved always saved
and about how the old testament is no longer valid. Would one of them happen to be female?

 

[Flaming Pie]

Also, you cannot quote one sentence in Leviticus and ignore the rest.

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3 After the [SUP]a[/SUP]doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye [SUP]b[/SUP]walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my [SUP]a[/SUP]judgments, and keep mine [SUP]b[/SUP]ordinances, to [SUP]c[/SUP]walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my [SUP]a[/SUP]statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall [SUP]b[/SUP]live [SUP]c[/SUP]in them: I am the Lord.
6 ¶None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their [SUP]a[/SUP]nakedness: I am the Lord.
7 The [SUP]a[/SUP]nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8 The [SUP]a[/SUP]nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness.
9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not [SUP]a[/SUP]uncover.
10 The nakedness of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11 The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.
13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s near kinswoman.
14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother’s [SUP]a[/SUP]wife: it is thy brother’s nakedness.
17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a [SUP]a[/SUP]woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a [SUP]a[/SUP]woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put [SUP]b[/SUP]apart for her uncleanness.
20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the [SUP]a[/SUP]fire to [SUP]b[/SUP]Molech, neither shalt thou [SUP]c[/SUP]profane the [SUP]d[/SUP]name of thy God: I am the Lord.
22 [SUP]a[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is [SUP]b[/SUP]abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 [SUP]a[/SUP]Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are [SUP]b[/SUP]defiled which I [SUP]c[/SUP]cast out before you:
25 And the [SUP]a[/SUP]land is [SUP]b[/SUP]defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore [SUP]a[/SUP]keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these [SUP]a[/SUP]abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the [SUP]a[/SUP]land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be [SUP]a[/SUP]cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable [SUP]a[/SUP]customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

It was only to the people of Isreal, which in the old testament was not the country it was the people of the jewish faith. Non jews were not under the same laws.

They were not stoned to death the were basically kicked out of the community; excommunicated.

 

[NietzscheKeen]

Well if he is gonna be debating the topic with door to door bible thumpers he better be able to do better than quote Leviticus.

He has the power of logic on his side, he won't need to quote any verses; he can ask them about their doctrine and pick it apart. Nothing will change a closed mind.

 

[NietzscheKeen]

Also, you cannot quote one sentence in Leviticus and ignore the rest.



It was only to the people of Isreal, which in the old testament was not the country it was the people of the jewish faith. Non jews were not under the same laws.

They were not stoned to death the were basically kicked out of the community; excommunicated.

So then, non-Jewish Christians can ignore the old testament?

 

[NietzscheKeen]

Also, you cannot quote one sentence in Leviticus and ignore the rest.



It was only to the people of Isreal, which in the old testament was not the country it was the people of the jewish faith. Non jews were not under the same laws.

They were not stoned to death the were basically kicked out of the community; excommunicated.

So then, non-Jewish Christians can ignore the old testament?

 

[Flaming Pie]

So then, non-Jewish Christians can ignore the old testament?

Sort of. We are not bound by the laws of Leviticus in such that we must be punished by our community for disobeying them.

 

[guy incognito]

Oh so now christians can pick and choose what they want to follow? Cherry pick any information you want until you are comfortable with what it says? This has already been addressed on the same site.

http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).
9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

I'm sure you have a laundry list of reasons why each of these quotes has been taken out of context and is no longer applicable to the idea of christianity you have.

 

[eye exaggerate]

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

...alright , since you seem to know what is true, please explain what 'Israel' is in a scriptural context, 'specially this one.

 

[guy incognito]

...alright , since you seem to know what is true, please explain what 'Israel' is in a scriptural context, 'specially this one.

Someone asked for bible verses that paint god in a bad light. I provided a web site that already has them listed. Flaming pie claimed all of those quotes would be easy to defend. I picked a few and asked him to defend them. Where did I claim to know what is true? Also why is it my job to break down and analyze the quote? It's not my book.

 

[NietzscheKeen]

Sort of. We are not bound by the laws of Leviticus in such that we must be punished by our community for disobeying them.

Then I can just throw out Lev. 19:11-17? It's in Leviticus as well as other books, so I guess maybe since the other Old Testament books contain the same ideas and laws, then those books should be ignored as well? Is the Old Testament purely subjective?


Leviticus 19:11-17 (NASB) of course.

11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.

13 ‘You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning. 14 You shall not curse a deaf man, nor place a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.

15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. 16 You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the Lord.

17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.

 

[Kervork]

How about

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[Villane]

You just set your self up for these lovely christians to do everything in their faith to re enlighten you. I'd recommend hot boxing your place to kingdom come before they arrive next time. xD

 

[brotherjericho]

Send them my way.

I was a Christian for more than 2 decades. Although I know the bible pretty well, and I used to debate online when I was a Christian and then an atheist using it, I have come to realize that talking about the bible is just plain silly. Here's an old book that has been redacted and edited many times, but even so, still written by fellow humans. Toss the bible aside and ask them for any real, non-anecdotal evidence for any god, much less their own, outside of a book of myths and legends. That should send them packing.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

Guys guys guys, im looking for passages i can physically highlight in my New Living Translation bible in order to show them. Please stick to passages from this bible and this bible only. I can't highlight passages that aren't in that book.

Links to websites would be awesome! I will just grab out my highlighter and get started!

Thank you for staying on topic guys!

 

[tyler.durden]

Ask them if they'd like to see your pet lions and your backyard colosseum...

 

[cannabineer]

New to the party.

I wouldn't bother with OT quotes.

I would go straight for the jugular with Romans 1:20.
"God is obvious around us, and if you don't see that, your a fagit". cn