Is Fem worth the extra money?

Baxters

Well-Known Member
ATTENTION!!! ALWAYS ORDER SEPARATELY FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES!!! YOU HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED
The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

This process can be used to:
A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

http://planetganja.net/Ebooks/Marijuana Botany.pdf

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

Preparation of STS:
First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: 0.5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.

Application:
The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:
Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very carefulollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

About the chemicals:
Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

.preparation of silver thiosulfate (sts) solution

silver thiosulfate (sts) is commonly used to block the action of ethylene in plant cell cultures. Ethylene is a hormone that is present in the gaseous state. Ethylene increases during senescence and ripening, and has been shown to increase in plant cell cultures due to wounding or the presence of auxins. Silver nitrate may be used alone to block the action of ethylene but it is not transported as well as sts thus is seldom used alone.

Prepare a 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate (sts) stock solution by dissolving 1.58 g of sodium thiosulfate (product no. S 620) into 100 ml of water. Prepare a 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution by dissolving 1.7 g of silver nitrate (product no. S 169) into 100 ml of water. Store the stock solution in the dark until needed to prepare the sts.

The sts solution is prepared with a molar ratio between silver and thiosulfate of 1:4, respectively. Nearly all of the silver present in the solution is in the form of [ag (s2o3)2]3-, the active complex for ethylene effect inhibition.
Prepare a 0.02 m sts by slowly pouring 20 ml of 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution into 80 ml of 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate stock solution. The sts can be stored in the refrigerator for up to a month. However, preparation of the sts just prior to use is recommended.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





A SIMPLE SAFE AND INEXPENSIVE FEMMING METHOD

LINKS TO THE CHEMICALS:

sodium thiosulfate

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/124109-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_1370_1LB_Sodium_Thiosulfate_Anhydrous.html

Silver Nitrate

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Silver-Nitrate-10g-P6503.aspx


ATTENTION!!! ALWAYS ORDER SEPARATELY FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES!!!
Thank you very much for the information here, seems the link to plantganja.net is not working, maybe the domain is up for sale but I'm sure you have given me enough information to get started with.

I may not be able to perform the procedures for a period as I need to deal with other issues first, however I am subscribed and have your information noted.

Thanks once again for all the input.
 

althor

Well-Known Member
femized seeds prone to herm.. I grew out dinafems cali hash plant... and barneys farm violator kush... both hermed on me... I didn't do anything wrong.. I babied them there whole lives the still hermed...
Oh well that settles it, you herm 2 plants and it is the breeders fault.... Hah.
 

brotherjericho

Well-Known Member
The tranny trait is the one I'm most trying to avoid. I would flip if ive seen it in my seed stock. Guess I'm being ocd on it. I know how to administer the acid method. I think I might go silver method though. Just for the fact its safer.

Having to wear gloves using that acid shit had me thinking.
I've yet to see a plant that likes to cross dress.
 

hsfkush

Well-Known Member
Looking into ordering some seeds and the site offers Fem seeds for twice the price as reg. are Fem worth it when you can get twice as many seeds for the same price?
Feminized seeds are supposed to be guaranteed female plants. However, certain breeders and/or companies are very sly and lazy in this department. Greenhouse Seeds for example have a known reputation for releasing under-par plants for the price you pay. Where as breeders like DNA Genetics are well known for releasing above-par plants. when buying feminized seeds, make sure you do a lot of research into the company/breeder you're interested in.

My advice, stay away from Greenhouse Seeds, Dutch Passion and in some cases, Barneys Farm. Others will vouch for these guys as good breeders, but the majority will give you the same view as myself.

Feminized seeds are useful for people who grow for themselves and don't have the space to accommodate 15 plants just to weed out all the males. They're also useful for cash croppers who are not in a position to clone, either through lack of experience or lack of space/time. If you go with a reputable breeder, then fem seeds are well worth the money.

Here's a list of breeders that I usually go with.

Reserva Privada
Female Seeds
DNA Genetics
Sagarmatha Seeds
Sweet Seeds
Delicious Seeds
G13 Labs

Hope this helped you in your quest for answers ^_^
 

BluntM8

Active Member
Oh well that settles it, you herm 2 plants and it is the breeders fault.... Hah.
and 2 different breeders to boot. also he was prolly running both strains in the exact same grow conditions. I'm not saying you didn't, but look in the mirror before you tarnish someone elses name. Each strain requires different needs. Even different phenos from the same strain may require different needs.
 

hsfkush

Well-Known Member
and 2 different breeders to boot. also he was prolly running both strains in the exact same grow conditions. I'm not saying you didn't, but look in the mirror before you tarnish someone elses name. Each strain requires different needs. Even different phenos from the same strain may require different needs.
Indeed, anytime I've had a hermie(3 times) I've always looked at what I did wrong first before blaming the breeder, and on all 3 occasions, it's been my fault and I've accepted that.
The reason I bash GHS is because of my friends grow, he had 30 white widow from GHS and they all ended up needing to be chopped at different stages, he did absolutely nothing wrong... Everything was fine, PH levels, room temperature, plants all looked healthy, then each day he was bringing 2 or 3 out of his tent to burn in an oil drum at his workshop(middle of nowhere) because of nanners. It really is unfortunate when you consider he spent well over 200 on just the seeds. He's a very, very experienced grower too, and is never shy of blaming himself, but this time he was completely baffled!
 

Chronic Masterbator

Well-Known Member
Trousers has the y chromosome concept right. Just wondering why still serious seeds 6 was taking so long to come out. There's a article on it somewhere I believe.
 

mycomaster

Well-Known Member
You said that feminized seeds are more likely to "hermie."
That is bullshit.

Bad advice is bad advice no matter how long you have been growing.
From Marijuana Garden Saver(edited by Ed Rosenthal) "Do feminized seeds work? Do they produce all female plants or hermaphrodites? Ed- All-female seeds do work. They are produced by inducing male flowers in female plants using chemicals or environmental techniques. They eliminate the need for sexing. HOWEVER gardeners report that sometimes some of the plants are hermaphroditic. This is the result of the technique used to produce them. When breeders used induced hermaphrodites in their breeding programs, rather than just for the last cross, they inadvertently select for hermaphroditism."

It all depends on the methods of making the feminized seeds. Yes so some fem seeds are alot more likely to HERM, no bullshit!
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
Nice try.
You are the 3rd or 4th person to quote that to me. There are huge gaps in Ed Rosenthal's knowledge. He relies to heavily on stories from growers who may or may not know what they are talking about.

From Marijuana Garden Saver(edited by Ed Rosenthal) "Do feminized seeds work? Do they produce all female plants or hermaphrodites? Ed- All-female seeds do work. They are produced by inducing male flowers in female plants using chemicals or environmental techniques. They eliminate the need for sexing. HOWEVER gardeners report that sometimes some of the plants are hermaphroditic.
Change out the word "gardeners" for "people that do not know how to grow marijuana," and it will make much more sense.

It is a joke that Ed Rosenthal and who ever wrote that book do not understand the difference between a real (dioecious) hermaphrodite and a monoecious hermaphrodite that is throwing male flowers most likely due to stress.

They are the victims of the exact same lies that we have been discussing for years.
Bad growers get monoecious hermaphrodites and want to blame every one and thing but themselves.


This is the result of the technique used to produce them.
Not at all. The method you use to produce feminized seeds does not change the DNA.
Stress and other environmental factors are not passed along in the dna.



When breeders used induced hermaphrodites in their breeding programs, rather than just for the last cross, they inadvertently select for hermaphroditism."

That is absolutely not true. Every female cannabis plant has the ability to produce male flowers. It is a normal and natural survival mechanism. When you make a feminized seed, there is no Y chromosome, so it can not be a real hermaphrodite.

It all depends on the methods of making the feminized seeds. Yes so some fem seeds are alot more likely to HERM, no bullshit!

If you make a feminized seed from parents that are likely to produce male flowers, then the offspring will be just as likely to do the same. That has nothing to do with it being a feminized seed or not. Overall, regular seeds are just as likely to produce male flowers as feminized seeds.


The connection between feminized seeds and hermaphrodites is basically a bunch of crap, based on stories from bad growers.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
From Marijuana Garden Saver(edited by Ed Rosenthal) "Do feminized seeds work? Do they produce all female plants or hermaphrodites? Ed- All-female seeds do work. They are produced by inducing male flowers in female plants using chemicals or environmental techniques. They eliminate the need for sexing. HOWEVER gardeners report that sometimes some of the plants are hermaphroditic. This is the result of the technique used to produce them. When breeders used induced hermaphrodites in their breeding programs, rather than just for the last cross, they inadvertently select for hermaphroditism."

It all depends on the methods of making the feminized seeds. Yes so some fem seeds are alot more likely to HERM, no bullshit!
Rosenthal and Cervantes know how to write and publish books....they know jack squat about the actual growing of cannabis and simply parrot what they are told by commercial interests

And I can see Rodelization (SOMA) methodology for producing fems may promote the survival trait in the plants as it is depended upon to obtain pollen but the silver methods no, as they do not
 
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