Magnum Plus2 LED 4x4 THCsnow Closet Grow

[Don Cirilo]

Congratulations for a solid and genuine led grow. However, a point regarding the lamp replacing a 1000 watter. Correct me if Im wrong Green guy, but based on the photos it's hard to imagine doubling the production with just that lamp. That means that it would be extremely hard to reach 600g if its even possible, something which is at the mid/low end of expected yield range from 1000 watts of hps. So I dont believe it justifies calling it a 1K watt hps killer (shot at magnum advertisement not at GreenGuy).

 

[GreenGuyLED]

Congratulations for a solid and genuine led grow. However, a point regarding the lamp replacing a 1000 watter. Correct me if Im wrong Green guy, but based on the photos it's hard to imagine doubling the production with just that lamp. That means that it would be extremely hard to reach 600g if its even possible, something which is at the mid/low end of expected yield range from 1000 watts of hps. So I dont believe it justifies calling it a 1K watt hps killer (shot at magnum advertisement not at GreenGuy).

I'd say you could realistically hit 1lb plus per light using this light. I'm actually going to set up a new grow in a crawl space using a 24 bucket current culture DWC system in a 12x12 and run 9 LED panels. Not sure what panels to run, maybe 3 different brands??? Not sure what strain to grow either??? Suggestions are welcomed.

I'm looking at it from this simple math perspective. From this grow I learned something pretty cool, LEDs do produce some seriously fine quality dense buds that are in line with 1000watter buds. Yeah you will get more quantity from a 1000 watter but not a huge amount more. Hmmm, ok, so here is my thinking on LEDs. These magnum panels draw 330w each and produce sweet fuck all for heat and the buds are killer, I'm sure I can hit a pound a light once I dial the system in but for a skeptics sake like myself lets say I only pull 3/4 pound per light. Sounds fair right? OK, lets look at this from a pure production and quality standpoint. I'm going to run 9 of these lights in a 12 by 12 crawlspace. Assuming everything goes as planned I am going to get roughly 6.5 pounds off of 9 lights. Essentially what this translates into is 2951 grams from slightly under 3000w total draw. Now do the math for HID. 3000w at 600g per light as you mentioned (which is fair) so a total of 1800 grams from the same 3000w of power consumption or 1200 grams less than the same power draw using the LEDs. that is a 2.5 pound difference per crop using the same power on the lighting. Assume you are selling to your local dispensary for $2000 a pound and that is $5000 per crop more than the HID from the same power draw.

9 of these panels will cost me $9000, I already spoke to someone at magnum. On the flipside 9 1000watter will cost me $250 per ballast a 1000w hortilux dual arc is around $160 and a good 8" vented hood is around $200 so a total of about $600 per light or $5400. Lets not even factor in the chiller or what it will cost to run and lets also leave out the fact that I need to change my bulbs at least once a year. First crop I justify the up front expense to set up using these LEDs and the next 4 give me a $20,000 advantage over the same 3000w HPS system.

I think everyone is looking at the LED possibility from the wrong perspective. 3000w is nothing to burn here in BC and will cost around $200 a month on 12/12. I think we need to recalculate our thinking and look at LED from an efficiency standpoint rather than from a power savings standpoint, just over a gram per watt makes way better business sense than .6 grams per watt no matter how you slice it. I'm sold on the technology and you can expect to see many more grows from me using this new system and I will figure out the best system to grow under LED, be it LST, topping, super cropping, what strains, etc. I am going to commit to a year of participating in this forum as well as documenting very detailed grow journals on my own blog so that anyone that desires can follow along and see what an experienced grower can do with this new LED technology.

Thanks everyone for following this grow and I look forward to posting my next grow shortly.

I'll post bud pics tonight, I was having some camera batery issues but got that cleared up today.

 

[Don Cirilo]

What you wrote GreenGuy is true. However, in your post you are comparing watt to watt. I also believe that watt to watt leds are better but my point was that 330watts of led are not equivalent to 1000hid. Maybe 650 to 750 watts of led are equivalent to 1000hid.
Anyways, a buddy of mine is doing a test grow using two bysen helios 175 watts each (same as magnum, magnum just rebrand it) and a 600 watts hid grow. Same clones. In the led side results seem very similar to yours (hard dense buds). Next grow he will add two apollo 8 from cidly (same lamp sold by growblu and fero leds and until recently area 51) with custom made spectrum. These lamps are advertised as running the leds at 700mA while most lamps are running at 350mA. GG, I recommend you check out bysen and cidly. They are chinese led manufactures. Bysen makes the magnum. You can contact them and get the lights directly from them for almost half the price. Cut the middleman!

 

[hyroot]

^^^^ don in the led world much like lumens, watts means nothing to light output. its always about par. look at the a51 leds 155 watts and puts out more par than 1000w at 12 inches away. granted the coverage is not the same. in the end its all about wide spectrum and par

 

[Don Cirilo]

I disagree, par is a measurement of light intensity in the frequencies used in photosynthesis and light intensity, depending on the led efficiency, is completely determined by the wattage. Of course if your spectrum is off then more wattage will do little good, but assuming you have appropriate spectrum the wattage and area coverage are your limiting factors. Compared to an led at 12", a 1000 watt hid will cover at least 4 times the area. So, in terms of equal coverage area critical for good yields, you need at least 4 of these lamps for a total of 620 watts which is close to my estimate of 650 to 750 watts of led needed to realistically replace a 1000 watter.

 

[hyroot]

a 1000 watt at most covers a 5x5 better at 4x4. 1 a51 will cover 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 . 1156 umols at 12 inches. 3 panels will cover same area as a 1000 watt. 2 panels are around 1800 umol/s at 12 inches at 465 watts

1000 watt ushio 1051 umol/s at 12 inches.

2 par t5 8 bulbs at 864 watts with aq bulbs will out perform a 1000 watt by 0.4 gpw or 5 zips

2 330 w cmh's will match a 1000w in coverage and yield but much better quality

The bysen Helios leds are at 500mA 1.7 - 1.8 watts 420 watts

Magnum same number of leds 500mA 1.3 watts 330 watts

 

[Don Cirilo]

I would really like to see a grow test where the grower gets between .6 and .8 grams per watt (600 and 800 grams) and get the same yield with 465 watts of led. The bysen my buddy is using has 160 leds and pulls 175 watts. Thats 1.09 watt per led and a little less since some of the power is consumed by fans. 1051 micro moles at 12"? Im not sure. HGL has a graph on their website that says that a 1000 watter will produce 1200 to 1400 micro moles at 24" and they sell leds! Its also important to note the micromoles advertised by led companies are at a spot directly under the lamp, as you move laterally away from the center par value decreases rapidly. According to HGL, their 500 watter will replace a 1000 watt hid, but they admit that the hid will have 25% more coverage area. That means that on average the 1000 watt light will yield 25% more. If you add 25% more power to the led to compensate you obtain 625 watts, again close to my estimate. These numbers are good and make leds worth trying, but 465 watts of led will not yield what a 1000 watter yields, at least not yet.

 

[Don Cirilo]

Im not trying to bad mouth leds, just pointing out issues one needs to consider in order to make a wise desicion regarding which led lamp is best for your specific grow set up.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

^^ you guys are both right IMO........coverage and penetration are STILL issues for leds, yes great GPW # are achievable using numerous low wattage panels over an area.

But to play with the big boys leds have to hit over 150lm/w of good quality white light!!! par/umol ratings are important as well and the KING atm seems to be the philips 860w all-start...........600+umol at 5 feet away!! granted their using an OG hood, but still very impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvKQ69NYldY Don't listen to their BS about it's a "True Sun 900" bulb , it's definitely a rebranded philips 860w All-start bulb

Insane #'s/awesome coverage area and can be easily had with 1000w mag ballast($85) and a $90 dollar bulb===== this is what led's need to get to, minimum of 2000umol at 24 inches IMO........should be soon I hope

 

[Eraserhead]

Generally, a 1000w HPS will have 1300-2000 Umol'/s below the center @ 24" depending on the bulb, at least according to Growers House.

A 600w HPS has roughly 1200 Umol'/s 12" below the center.

The SGS-160 has 1100+ Umol'/s @ 12" below the center. So the PAR is almost that of a 600w HPS, but you need 2 of them to equal the footprint of the 600w. And just like every grow light in the world including HPS, as you move away from the center, the Umol'/s get lower.

And as for Fero, Blu and Area 51 selling or ever sold Apollos. Blu sells them now, Fero Canada sold them in 2011 and part of 2012. Fero Europe sells them now. Area 51 never sold them and are not even on good terms with Cidly. The lights used Heliopto LEDs and completely different cases than the Apollo, only the 15 LED circular modules were similar. Cidly uses faux Epistar and faux Bridgelux. Fauxstar and Fauxlux.

 

[Don Cirilo]

Yeah, my bad about the area 51 part. I know all lamps get reduced micro moles as you move away from the center, my point was that due to the small footprint of leds, that fact becomes particularly relevant in the led case (6 inches away from the center in an led has a larger drop in par than 6 inches away from the center of an hid lamp.) I know fero and area 51 are associated, fero is now selling the new area 51 all cree led. I remember reading on their site that helioto was the bomb and epistar and bridgelux was crap, and now their selling apollos with bridgelux and epistar; I dont get it. What is faux bridgelux? Do you have inside information on area 51? (that sounds funny.) Do you now what made them switch their spectrum to only white and 630nm red?

 

[Don Cirilo]

My buddy is probably harvesting within a week and Ill post the results here of two helios 6 modules each 350 total watts of led with a couple of cfls to throw in some white. Its basically the same magnum plus2 but split in half although I dont now what frequencies magnum is using. He is planning on next run doing these helios with two apollo 8 (500 total watts more). So, eraserhead, if you have any info or reason why he should reconsider buying from cidly please let me know since they have not been purchased yet. Oh almost forgot, there is no way I could convince my pal to supply me with pics. He is a ninja when it comes to security.

 

[Eraserhead]

I am Area 51, though I am not here to sell anything to anyone, or convince anyone which light is better or worse.

You are correct, panel size has a lot to do with footprint of the LED lamp, actually as much as the power coming off of the lamp. You need a good balance between panel size, LED power, and proper beam angles to get the best out of the panel. The SGS is pretty large for only drawing 155w. They are close to the same size as the 900w Blackstar.

Fero Canada and Area 51 were associated during 2012, but have parted ways. Fero Canada and Fero Europe has parted ways as well. Fero Europe has become a distributor for the SGS lamp, but otherwise are not partners.

Faux means fake. Cidly uses Epileds and Optotech, just like 90% of Chinese sellers. They are okay LEDs, they do grow plants. But there are better out there. I know they're fake because about half the colors Cidly offers aren't even made by Epistar or Bridgelux.

Most Chinese LED grow/aquarium light factories encapsulates their own LED diodes right on site.

As for using white + red only, we've been doing that for a while now, almost a year. We dropped the deep reds a few months ago because Cree NW/OW white has plenty of deep red, and not all plants respond to a lot of deep red that well, but all plants respond to regular red quite well.

Yeah, my bad about the area 51 part. I know all lamps get reduced micro moles as you move away from the center, my point was that due to the small footprint of leds, that fact becomes particularly relevant in the led case (6 inches away from the center in an led has a larger drop in par than 6 inches away from the center of an hid lamp.) I know fero and area 51 are associated, fero is now selling the new area 51 all cree led. I remember reading on their site that helioto was the bomb and epistar and bridgelux was crap, and now their selling apollos with bridgelux and epistar; I dont get it. What is faux bridgelux? Do you have inside information on area 51? (that sounds funny.) Do you now what made them switch their spectrum to only white and 630nm red?

Besides Cidly spamming the crap out of my email, my problem with the Apollo's and any Cidly LED, is their use of 700mA. The LEDs they use max out at 700mA, and when driven at the max, they have a much shorter life, and will not run at their best capable efficiency.

I think the Magnum plus2 is the same as the Bysen, mainly because Bysen had theirs first, then Magnum came along with a similar model (same LED modules with 8x 1w Cree's in the center of 12x Epileds, same dimensions, Magnum's case design) I'd buy the Bysen over the Magnum or the Cidly. Vanqled seems to have some happy customers too.

My buddy is probably harvesting within a week and Ill post the results here of two helios 6 modules each 350 total watts of led with a couple of cfls to throw in some white. Its basically the same magnum plus2 but split in half although I dont now what frequencies magnum is using. He is planning on next run doing these helios with two apollo 8 (500 total watts more). So, eraserhead, if you have any info or reason why he should reconsider buying from cidly please let me know since they have not been purchased yet. Oh almost forgot, there is no way I could convince my pal to supply me with pics. He is a ninja when it comes to security.

 

[jubiare]

Eraserhead
What have you finally decided to drive the LEDs at?

 

[Eraserhead]

550mA for the XPE, and 750mA for the XPG, they're on separate circuits.

Eraserhead
What have you finally decided to drive the LEDs at?

 

[jubiare]

Amazing eheh.. I like it!

 

[Don Cirilo]

Thanks for the info eraserhead (love that movie). I have one question, Ive been told by some led sellers that now their using "true white" leds which, according to them, are full spectrum including uv and IR. I have yet to encounter a white led spec sheet that confirms this. Do you know if this is true, a white led that covers uv and infra red? I think not.

 

[Eraserhead]

We use 5w "outdoor white" Cree XPG LEDs, and they have a spectrum starting at about 420nm, and ending pretty close to 800nm.

Depending what the kelvins are, the lower the kelvin, the closer it gets to 800nm.

Regardless the kelvin, they all start at around 420nm. At least this is the case for Cree. I'm pretty sure other whites are similar, even the LEDs we had used prior to the Cree's started at 420nm.

There's plenty of whites that exceed 800nm. Especially those that use higher nm Intematix phosphors.

Thanks for the info eraserhead (love that movie). I have one question, Ive been told by some led sellers that now their using "true white" leds which, according to them, are full spectrum including uv and IR. I have yet to encounter a white led spec sheet that confirms this. Do you know if this is true, a white led that covers uv and infra red? I think not.

 

[Don Cirilo]

Exactly, Eraserhead thats what Ive found in the literature. So, correct me if Im wrong eraserhead, but any white led (independent of color temperature) will include some or sufficient IR, but definitely no UV. In your experience would you say this is correct?

 

[Don Cirilo]

OK, my bad, my previous question about UV in white leds was answered in Eraserhead's previous post. The answer is no for uv and yes for IR. However, in the spirit of deepening the discussion, I found this website which finds pride in selling "true uv and IR free" white light sources. According to them, if your looking for uv and IR free white light sources (which is desirable in cases such as art illumination) , white leds are misleading in their spectrum output. (They contain more uv and IR that than they are willing to accept.). For normal domestic, art, and other cases of illumination, IR and UV are undesirable which would justify minimizing public claim of uv and ir emissions from white leds by their manufacturers . Does anybody have any info that helps on this matter (whether the uv output of white leds could have been underestimated by led manufacturers or not)?
The site Im referring to is http://www.nouvir.com/index.cfm?ref=10100