SeniorFrostyKush
Active Member
hey matt we need you dog. the trolls are startin to take over!!! 
Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize
- Thread starter Matt Rize
- Start date
jammin screw
Well-Known Member
out of all the dirts to use what would be best suitable for veganics..... would light warrior be good?
RedMan420
Active Member
LOL, theres huge deference in ewc and any other "poop" , ewc contain some of the worms digestive enzymes in its poop, that's what makes it so good and important for soil!! And if you didn't know that you have no place in takin bout veganics or organics for that matter.
Cannabinoids
Well-Known Member
So what is the offical list of nutrients one is needing to purchase to go veganic and what about the schedule?
Wolverine97
Well-Known Member
Read the first half of this thread and you'll have your answers. There isn't one magic list that'll work for all.
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
This is exactly whats crazy about all these trade names and methods and hydro stores pumping people full of bottles and schedules.
Learn how to garden, learn how to cultivate the earth, turn in green manure/cover crops. This is the "official" veganic way. Period end of thread.
Cannabinoids
Well-Known Member
Bio vega
Bio Flora
Humboldt Bloom (0-10-0)
Soluble seaweed (Technafloras) ~
General Organic CaMag
Bio Boost
enzymatic
mineral matirx micros ~
MICRO
Humboldt Nutrients Myco Madness SOLUBLE
Granular endo & Ecto mycorrhizae (Plant Success, Down To Earth) organicxxl
Humboldt Mayan Microzyme
read these from an article from kyle kushman
Bio Flora
Humboldt Bloom (0-10-0)
Soluble seaweed (Technafloras) ~
General Organic CaMag
Bio Boost
enzymatic
mineral matirx micros ~
MICRO
Humboldt Nutrients Myco Madness SOLUBLE
Granular endo & Ecto mycorrhizae (Plant Success, Down To Earth) organicxxl
Humboldt Mayan Microzyme
read these from an article from kyle kushman
SeniorFrostyKush
Active Member
So, as far as quality goes, whats the consensus on the grow media? Is making your own mix the smarter and more optimal way to go? Or is buying a bagged soilles mix the way to go? There hasn't been any detailed talk on this subject for a really, really long time now, and theres been quite a few new soiless mixes that have sprung up since and a few others that have gone unmentioned. Im finally about to kick start my first veganic grow and this is the part im stuck on. I was praying that the new Bio Terra Plus would be out by now but oh well, such is life. I know it would be really helpful to me and alot of others I'm sure, if some of you veterans out there could shed some light on a bagged soiless that you've found that can stack up to the BTP, or an equally effective mix that you've made, with an idea on the ingredients and ratios that your using. Thanks guys, and fuck these trolls, lets keep this shit alive!
Cann
Well-Known Member
LOL rising moon I liked your idea but Cannabinoids hit the nail on the head. bout to head off to the hydro store and drop my entire paycheck, wish me luck!!!
what kind of results can I expect to see with this professional nutrient regime??? if kyle kushman does it, it must be amazing right? I mean, kush is his last name...how can you go wrong???
done with this thread, lmao. rising moons post should've ended it once and for all.
GET OUT OF THE MYTHICAL WORLD OF STONER SCIENCE AND ENTER THE WORLD OF HORTICULTURE. you will not be disappointed. remove from your brain everything that has been pounded into you by hydro store employees, matt rize, kyle kushman, etc. There is no reason to treat cannabis different than any other vegetable. Figure out what the organic vegetable farmers in your area are doing, and emulate this. Quality handbuilt soil, time, pure water, and sunlight. Boom, you got yourself some dank, and saved loads of time, money, and embarrassment.
Bird Gymnastics
New Member
I would like to add, growing TLO is definitely the way to go, but it certain situations it isn't possible for some people. I've grown in DWC, Ebb and Flow, Coco, Soil w/ synthetics (bottles), soil (TLO Style) and soil (canna bio line). With the best result, in regards to flavor, smell and overall high, the TLO style was definitely the best in cost effective compared to quality. But and this is a big but, if you have the capital and are able to use the biocanna line in a strong composted soil/TLO without shit (bat guano, seabird, etc.) I would highly recommend it. I will post pictures of both once I finish my new room of White Fire. There is my a slightly difference in looks, but in smell, taste and overall high you can truly tell the difference. There is something more clean about adding the biocanna to your living soil in small, supplementing amounts. As much as I hate using certain products, I could never achieve the results I get by growing 100% TLO. As far as cost goes, if I didn't have a good amount of capital, I would stick to TLO, but if you have a few bucks to spend I inky recommend 3 products. Bio Flores, Bio Boost and cannazyme and/or hygrozyme. T each their own and I'm not trying to start any arguments. Just simply sharing with what I have noticed.
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
Forget T L O and the Rev.
Its all about True Living Soil!
Its all about True Living Soil!
Bird Gymnastics
New Member
TLO and true living soil is the same thing hahaha
Cann
Well-Known Member
LOL...you sir need to do some research. I'll leave it at that.
Bird Gymnastics
New Member
Hahahaa I love people who deflect. If it is different please explain how so? Can't wait to hear this...
Gaia's.Grower
Well-Known Member
Veganics are amazing. I think this is a phenomenal forum and after 2 years people are still interested. I saw a few recent post about soiless mixes for veganics, from personal experience I can definitely say that promix HP and BioBizz coco are great vegan soiless mixes that should go very well with any quality fertilizer schedule, But especially well with any molasses based organic nutrient such as bioCanna or BioBizz. I have personally used bioCanna but prefer the BioBizz line. One way to amend the promix that I've found to work incredibly well is with two bags of BioBizz light mix for every large bale of promix. (the light mix might contain earthworm castings - Im not 100% sure.) The Light mix is soiless for the most part and it provides an amazing organic backbone and some additional stability (great for people who are still trying to dial in their method) in your media, but it is not necessary.
However in defense of worm castings in veganics, it has been suggested that earthworms evolved around the same time as flowering plants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annelid under evolutionary history. This seems to hint that the two may have co evolved (in order for plants to produce their maximum each year they need a way to break down discarded produce and vegetable matter quickly, in comes earthworms to maintain a good thermal dynamic, collect remote water, aerate any compacted soil, leave their waste in an ideal form for the plant, etc.. This leads to better preforming plants, which will produce more vegetable matter providing more food for worms who are able to provide more nutrients to the land each year and provide a better substrate for stronger preforming more nutrient demanding plants to succeed). Since we are dealing with flowering plants I don't think the possibility of this relationship should be ignored. Also, Biobizz feeds a mineral/plant diet to their worms, has great control over consistency in their input/output, and earthworms are a great way to transform mineral content in the soil into organic material containing high nutrient content. As far as BioBizz's organic standards, I think the website speaks for itself....http://www.biobizz.com/us/company/certifications.
There probably are ways to use peat humus in place of the castings if you wanted to try some personalized mixes, but I don't think you will be able to get the same kind of mineral nutrients into the peat humus without significant fermentation time. Another important distinction between earthworm castings and other animal manures is the type of microbes in your grow media that each encourages. Earthworms have incredible bacteria inside their digestive tract, and since they scour through tons of dirt to collect their food these bacteria are very good at removing almost all nutrition from the soil and leaving behind minerals stored in an organic form that is perfect for beneficial fungi to uptake. Larger animals and birds excrete waste that still contains large amounts of organic material that bacteria can feed on. The biggest indication of this difference is normally seen in the Nitrogen level of each product. Castings have little to no Nitrogen, and guano and manures often times must be well composted to prevent burn (usually from excessive nitrogen) and even after composting still contain high nitrogen.
So, earthworm castings can lead to a more fungal dominated soil system and higher animal's waste can initially contribute to a more bacterially dominated soil. Now, bacteria play a significant role in nutrient acquisition for plants but are limited by soil moisture levels and physical distance in their mobility. This in turn limits the volume of organic material that bacteria can digest. Mycorrhizal fungi grow hyphae that can extend throughout the substrate and cover significantly more surface area than would be possible for bacteria to feed on, especially once predatory protozoa begin to feed on larger bacteria populations. In addition to the larger surface area for nutrient uptake myc also provides an incredible increase in mineral uptake, especially minerals that may be in organic or various precipitated forms in the media.
Possibly the most significant role of mycorrhizae in mineral uptake is the increased uptake of Phosphorous in organic form. If ionic Phos is available in the media the plant will not make the appropriate interface for myc symbiosis. Once Ionic phos is gone from the media certain enzymes activate and new gene expressions turn on allowing the myc to infect the root. The main reason for only allowing the interface once ionic P is depleted is that the plant will exude carbohydrates in exchange for minerals (i.e. it will trade sugars made during photosynthesis for minerals the myc has mined from the media). If the plant can aquire "free" (ionic) P then it will not sacrifice hard earned sugars for no reason. However, there is a much higher rate of phosphorous uptake from the media once symbiosis has occurred even if ionic Phos is introduced. Also, ionic phos (and other elements) will oxidize into phosphates (in the case of phosphorus) as the media dries and these are more difficult for the plant to access alone.
Fungal dominance in organic soil leads to a higher rate of mineral acquisition and healthier plants. It is easier with veganics in general to create an environment that is much more suitable for fungal dominance due to the method's dependence on minerals and plant based food sources that are, in nature, less nutritionally dense than animal derived products and certainly less concentrated and/or available than chemical based fertilizers. In general, Earthworm castings help to establish fungal dominance and animal waste/animal products help to establish bacterial dominance. So castings aren't necessary in veganics, but they also don't seem to violate the veganic growing principles.
However in defense of worm castings in veganics, it has been suggested that earthworms evolved around the same time as flowering plants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annelid under evolutionary history. This seems to hint that the two may have co evolved (in order for plants to produce their maximum each year they need a way to break down discarded produce and vegetable matter quickly, in comes earthworms to maintain a good thermal dynamic, collect remote water, aerate any compacted soil, leave their waste in an ideal form for the plant, etc.. This leads to better preforming plants, which will produce more vegetable matter providing more food for worms who are able to provide more nutrients to the land each year and provide a better substrate for stronger preforming more nutrient demanding plants to succeed). Since we are dealing with flowering plants I don't think the possibility of this relationship should be ignored. Also, Biobizz feeds a mineral/plant diet to their worms, has great control over consistency in their input/output, and earthworms are a great way to transform mineral content in the soil into organic material containing high nutrient content. As far as BioBizz's organic standards, I think the website speaks for itself....http://www.biobizz.com/us/company/certifications.
There probably are ways to use peat humus in place of the castings if you wanted to try some personalized mixes, but I don't think you will be able to get the same kind of mineral nutrients into the peat humus without significant fermentation time. Another important distinction between earthworm castings and other animal manures is the type of microbes in your grow media that each encourages. Earthworms have incredible bacteria inside their digestive tract, and since they scour through tons of dirt to collect their food these bacteria are very good at removing almost all nutrition from the soil and leaving behind minerals stored in an organic form that is perfect for beneficial fungi to uptake. Larger animals and birds excrete waste that still contains large amounts of organic material that bacteria can feed on. The biggest indication of this difference is normally seen in the Nitrogen level of each product. Castings have little to no Nitrogen, and guano and manures often times must be well composted to prevent burn (usually from excessive nitrogen) and even after composting still contain high nitrogen.
So, earthworm castings can lead to a more fungal dominated soil system and higher animal's waste can initially contribute to a more bacterially dominated soil. Now, bacteria play a significant role in nutrient acquisition for plants but are limited by soil moisture levels and physical distance in their mobility. This in turn limits the volume of organic material that bacteria can digest. Mycorrhizal fungi grow hyphae that can extend throughout the substrate and cover significantly more surface area than would be possible for bacteria to feed on, especially once predatory protozoa begin to feed on larger bacteria populations. In addition to the larger surface area for nutrient uptake myc also provides an incredible increase in mineral uptake, especially minerals that may be in organic or various precipitated forms in the media.
Possibly the most significant role of mycorrhizae in mineral uptake is the increased uptake of Phosphorous in organic form. If ionic Phos is available in the media the plant will not make the appropriate interface for myc symbiosis. Once Ionic phos is gone from the media certain enzymes activate and new gene expressions turn on allowing the myc to infect the root. The main reason for only allowing the interface once ionic P is depleted is that the plant will exude carbohydrates in exchange for minerals (i.e. it will trade sugars made during photosynthesis for minerals the myc has mined from the media). If the plant can aquire "free" (ionic) P then it will not sacrifice hard earned sugars for no reason. However, there is a much higher rate of phosphorous uptake from the media once symbiosis has occurred even if ionic Phos is introduced. Also, ionic phos (and other elements) will oxidize into phosphates (in the case of phosphorus) as the media dries and these are more difficult for the plant to access alone.
Fungal dominance in organic soil leads to a higher rate of mineral acquisition and healthier plants. It is easier with veganics in general to create an environment that is much more suitable for fungal dominance due to the method's dependence on minerals and plant based food sources that are, in nature, less nutritionally dense than animal derived products and certainly less concentrated and/or available than chemical based fertilizers. In general, Earthworm castings help to establish fungal dominance and animal waste/animal products help to establish bacterial dominance. So castings aren't necessary in veganics, but they also don't seem to violate the veganic growing principles.
Gaia's.Grower
Well-Known Member
These were all done veganic in pro mix hp with BioBizz nutes (Bio grow + Bio heaven veg; Bio grow + Bio bloom + Alg-A-Mic + Bio heaven - for bloom)
Attachments
Rising Moon
Well-Known Member
"Under Stockfree-Organic Standard 3.5 the following sources of fertility are prohibited from stockfree-organic systems:
(a) Products of animal or fish origin
(b) manures, slurry or urine
(c) Worm compost
For those who don't know, stockfree-organic standards were set by the Vegan Organic Network, a certifying body in Europe, inspecting and certifying veganic farms.
So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal.
(a) Products of animal or fish origin
(b) manures, slurry or urine
(c) Worm compost
For those who don't know, stockfree-organic standards were set by the Vegan Organic Network, a certifying body in Europe, inspecting and certifying veganic farms.
So, NO,EWC is not allowed in veganic growing, and it for sure violates the growing principal.