Here it comes - gun control!!!

[WeedKillsBrainCells]

This is for you, beefbisquit. If gun registration and banning doesn't work in Europe, the suggestion that it might work in the US is laughable. Read the whole article, you might find it enlightening:

"Well, says the Small Arms Survey, a research outfit established by the Swiss government, the United Kingdom, with just shy of 1.8 million legal firearms, has about four million illegal guns. Belgium, with about 458,000 legal firearms, has roughly two million illegal guns. In Germany, the number is 7.2 million legal guns and between 17 and 20 million off-the-books examples of things that go “bang” (a figure with which the German Police Union very publicly agrees). France, says the Survey, has 15-17 million unlawful firearms in a nation where 2.8 million weapons are held in compliance with the law."

http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/22/gun-restrictions-have-always-bred-defian/1

If gun registration and banning doesn't work in Europe

well let me stop you there... America has 5% of the worlds population yet they have 35-50% of ALL guns!!! thats a lot of guns... Illegal guns are always being moved around the world thats nothing new.. But England and wales combined has 6% homicides by firearm.. you have 60%... so i kinda beg to differ on the "it doesnt work" front.

I wouldnt deny cn his huntingy rifles particularly, but when people in this thread are complaining they cant get a 2000 round/min gun because of the "strict rules" you do kinda wonder what planet some yanks are on

 

[silasraven]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/24/new-pentagon-effort-will-send-army-teams-to-africa-as-terror-threat-grows/

they will be sending an unlisted amount of people into africa for "terror" reasons. so gun control in america yet this doesnt come to mind as a part of it? kinda back wards huh? we send our dudes over seas for everyone else yet screw the homeland with the 3 shootings and counting since what has happened . note- just because it comes from fox doesnt mean its not happening .

 

[NLXSK1]

If gun registration and banning doesn't work in Europe

well let me stop you there... America has 5% of the worlds population yet they have 35-50% of ALL guns!!! thats a lot of guns... Illegal guns are always being moved around the world thats nothing new.. But England and wales combined has 6% homicides by firearm.. you have 60%... so i kinda beg to differ on the "it doesnt work" front.

I wouldnt deny cn his huntingy rifles particularly, but when people in this thread are complaining they cant get a 2000 round/min gun because of the "strict rules" you do kinda wonder what planet some yanks are on

Doesnt that statistic just prove that people kill people regularly without the benefit of firearms?

 

[Beefbisquit]

so, in other words the law will do nothing to alleviate gun deaths, and instead be used to punish otherwise law abiding citizens.

BTW how does a gun lock keep your firearm from being stolen?

"Otherwise, law abiding citizens."

Most people who break the law, are otherwise law abiding citizens. That's the point of laws, most people follow them, just like most people would follow the gun storage laws. People who don't follow the laws will be subject to a penalty. That's how laws work. You could be Mr. Perfect, but if you go over the speed limit, an otherwise law abiding citizen gets a ticket. Should the fact that you don't break some laws mean you shouldn't have to follow ones you don't want to because they would make you an 'otherwise law abiding citizen?', I think not.

You could make that argument against crimes of passion; "Well, your honor, Dave doesn't usually murder his girlfriends, I guess he just slipped up, because otherwise, he's a law abiding citizen. We should not enforce the law this time, because Dave doesn't break other laws.... only this one."

And yes, it will help alleviate gun deaths.

If most law abiding citizens (as you say) are actually law abiding citizens, wouldn't they abide by the laws? If even half of the 270,000,000 guns in the USA were secured in a safe, or locked up with trigger guards, it's going to be vastly more difficult for those weapons to get stolen. Guns that aren't stolen, are guns that aren't in criminals hands.

Is your argument that locking guns and ammo in safes when you're not around will do nothing to stop gun crime? Because I beg to differ.

 

[WeedKillsBrainCells]

Doesnt that statistic just prove that people kill people regularly without the benefit of firearms?

Considering I havent posted any death numbers to account for Americas much larger population, uhh, no. They do say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing though so here:


In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.
In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

refs;

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf
(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf
(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html
(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/
(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf

 

[NLXSK1]

Considering I havent posted any death numbers to account for Americas much larger population, uhh, no. They do say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing though so here:


In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.
In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

refs;

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf
(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf
(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html
(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/
(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf

Didnt you just prove my point which was that people kill people regularly?

Were there no murders before the gun was invented?

 

[Beefbisquit]

Didnt you just prove my point which was that people kill people regularly?

Were there no murders before the gun was invented?

Is the only information that you can extrapolate from this data Is that people kill people regularly?

Kind of sad.

 

[RyanTheRhino]

Is the only information that you can extrapolate from this data Is that people kill people regularly?

Kind of sad.

Extrapolation is extremely risky and riddled with errors

 

[Doer]

Is the only information that you can extrapolate from this data Is that people kill people regularly?

Kind of sad.

Well, no need to let you're emotions run away with you. (Able said the Cain)

It's sad that we have a world where we kill each other? Realism is facing facts.

 

[NoDrama]

lol You honestly think that the great majority of 270 million guns are just laying around? I would say with 99.999999999% confidence that the great majority of them are under lock and key. Way more than half are locked up, i would say 95% are locked up as it is.

How does a trigger lock keep a gun from being stolen? There aint no way you can steal my vault.But a trigger lock makes it no more difficult to steal a gun than not having one. You are a giant hypocrite if you don't have them under lock and key and only have trigger locks, it won't stop a thief from stealing them at all, it doesn't even present a minor problem.

 

[NoDrama]

Considering I havent posted any death numbers to account for Americas much larger population, uhh, no. They do say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing though so here:


In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.
In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

refs;

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf
(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf
(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html
(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/
(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf

you didn't prove anything. all you did was provide some facts with no correlation

a then b therefore c?

 

[kpmarine]

If gun registration and banning doesn't work in Europe

well let me stop you there... America has 5% of the worlds population yet they have 35-50% of ALL guns!!! thats a lot of guns... Illegal guns are always being moved around the world thats nothing new.. But England and wales combined has 6% homicides by firearm.. you have 60%... so i kinda beg to differ on the "it doesnt work" front.

I wouldnt deny cn his huntingy rifles particularly, but when people in this thread are complaining they cant get a 2000 round/min gun because of the "strict rules" you do kinda wonder what planet some yanks are on

If you look at the US bureau of justice stats, handguns are used in 89% of crimes where a gun is used. Not these scary 2000round/min guns you talk about. Mostly because a pistol tucks in your pants; weapon with the rate of fire you're speaking of aren't nearly as convenient for actual commission of most crimes.

 

[fdd2blk]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/two-firefighters-shot-killed-while-responding-webster-n-163105823.html

 

[Beefbisquit]

lol You honestly think that the great majority of 270 million guns are just laying around? I would say with 99.999999999% confidence that the great majority of them are under lock and key. Way more than half are locked up, i would say 95% are locked up as it is.

How does a trigger lock keep a gun from being stolen? There aint no way you can steal my vault.But a trigger lock makes it no more difficult to steal a gun than not having one. You are a giant hypocrite if you don't have them under lock and key and only have trigger locks, it won't stop a thief from stealing them at all, it doesn't even present a minor problem.

Made up stats don't prove points.

Also,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect

You are right about the safe, trigger locks prevent them from being 'used', not stolen. For example if your child wants to use your gun for nefarious acts, it doesn't have to be stolen, it's already in the house. However, a trigger lock will make the gun as useful as a club.

 

[cannabineer]

If gun registration and banning doesn't work in Europe

well let me stop you there... America has 5% of the worlds population yet they have 35-50% of ALL guns!!! thats a lot of guns... Illegal guns are always being moved around the world thats nothing new.. But England and wales combined has 6% homicides by firearm.. you have 60%... so i kinda beg to differ on the "it doesnt work" front.

I wouldnt deny cn his huntingy rifles particularly, but when people in this thread are complaining they cant get a 2000 round/min gun because of the "strict rules" you do kinda wonder what planet some yanks are on

The crux of this and following statistics is its focus on homicide. When you expand the focus to violent crime, the failure of gun bans becomes more evident. Antigunners are often cherrypicking these stats and ignoring violent crime, the preventing/deterring/stopping of which is what gun carry is all about.
Not all violent crimes are homicides. But all homicides are violent crimes. cn

 

[st0wandgrow]

Cars are not protected by the Constitution.
You advocate proper training and yearly recertification of gun owners. If it's such a good idea, why aren't applicants for drivers licenses tested beyond the most basic of requirements? And after acquiring the license, are not tested again? You seem to be more worried about misuse of a firearm than the more common occurrence of misuse of a vehicle. How many innocent children have been killed because somebody was acting in an irresponsible manner while operating a vehicle?
It makes me laugh every time there is a shooting incident, like in AZ when Giffords was shot, they start out with... "why is it easier to get a gun than a drivers license?" I ask, "Why is it so easy to get a drivers license and becoming so hard to own a weapon?"
You can pass all the laws you think are necessary to make society act in the manner you see fit but in the end it all comes down to, law abiding citizens are not the problem, criminals care not what laws are in place. You can make all the requirements for training, storage and use but at the end of the day, the criminal has the edge because he does not play by the same rules as you and I.
I also get the impression that you view the 2nd A as protecting gun ownership only for the hunter/recreational shooter or collector. Hence the more prominent argument that "who really NEEDS to own a semi-automatic weapon?" The second amendment was written at a time when the citizenry had access to the same arms as the military and they were engaged in a war against an oppressive government. Based on the historical context of the times when it was written, I can see no other reason for being included in the Constitution except for protection from an oppressive government, foreign OR domestic.

So, when the impending battle begins, and the US military tanks roll through your front yard, exactly how are you going to stop a tank with your handgun?

Or are you suggesting that you should be able to own a tank too?

 

[Dr Kynes]

lol You honestly think that the great majority of 270 million guns are just laying around? I would say with 99.999999999% confidence that the great majority of them are under lock and key. Way more than half are locked up, i would say 95% are locked up as it is.

How does a trigger lock keep a gun from being stolen? There aint no way you can steal my vault.But a trigger lock makes it no more difficult to steal a gun than not having one. You are a giant hypocrite if you don't have them under lock and key and only have trigger locks, it won't stop a thief from stealing them at all, it doesn't even present a minor problem.

uhh... none of the 15 guns in my house is locked up. some are stowed in cases because i dont think ill need a scoped deer rifle to defend myself at 3am from one of the random tweakers and crackheads who occaisionally wander in

over the past 5 years i been at this current house i have had like 6 people just wander in

2 were just drunks who lived on my street and mistook my cookie cutter house for theirs, 1 was a drunk woman who actually used to live here before i moved in and she forgot that it wasnt 2006 anymore.
3 were your run of the mill crackheads and tweakers who fled when confronted with a shotgun or pistol, and i havent had to shoot anybody yet.

if i locked my guns up i would have to chase the tweakers and crackheads with a shovel or sword or machete or whatnot, and thats actually illegal in california.
dont bother trying to figure it out, but defending yourself with a knife or gun is legal, but threatening somebody with a sword machete spear crossbow sledgehammer or any other weapon is a crime. if you use nunchucks or ninja stars you might as well just head straight to prison. those are totally illegal.

 

[st0wandgrow]

um yeah im that much of a pussy. what if ur attacker or would be assailant has a gun or weapon of his own. should i let him close the gap to use my crafty hand to knife or hand to gun combat skills but im not willing to risk it. u would be dumb as fuck if u were.

I live in Metro Detroit. The murder capital of the US. And guess what, in the 13 years I have lived here, I have not seen a single gun being used or brandished. If someone holds a gun to my head, they want something. Most likely money. I do not feel that getting killed over, or killing someone else over the $200 in my pocket is worth it. They can have my money.

Sure, in your lifetime you could happen upon the crazed gunman in the mall scenario, and then you get to act out your Rambo fantasy in real life, but you have a better chance of winning the lotto twice than you do of that occurring.

IMO, more often than not, guns will unnecessarily escalate a situation that could have been diffused through using common sense.

The wild card is home invasions. I 100% see the justification for keeping a gun at home. That is your castle, and that is your family, and if someone breaks in to your home then all bets are off and deadly force is justifiable.

 

[NLXSK1]

I just remembered that I did have a gun pulled on me once.

By the younger brother of one of my girlfriends because I was messing with him. It was one of his dad's numerous guns and this one was stored under a drawer in the kitchen.

 

[desert dude]

According to the executive director of Gun Owners of America, in places in the US that allow citizens to carry firearms the homicide rate is 1/10 of Europe's. The problem seems to be "gun free zones".

The violent crime rate in the UK is four times higher than the US. The US is not even in the top 10 for violent crime rates when compared to European countries. You are MUCH safer in the US than you are in Europe.