Here it comes - gun control!!!

[budlover13]

I'd find another dojo. All the dojos I've been in, the instructor makes no threats, but does deal it out to the deserving.

Nah. i nor any of my family train there. LONG story about Boyscouts lol.

 

[st0wandgrow]

You don't know anything about me, buddy boy. And you a coward to hide behind insults in a forum. And you are stuck on the word "allow." Do you think our gym bags are searched? What a moron.

You know what, take your selective outrage and shove it.

I'm not sure who appointed you forum etiquette police, but I didn't get the memo. Insults are flying all over the place, and I am responding in kind. If you don't like it move along, or rip me back, but please stop with the "you are a coward to hide behind insults" finger wagging. You sound silly doing it.

 

[NoDrama]

Smooth is fast. I have a Remington model 870 with a 12" barrel beside my bed. I can get the trigger lock off pretty fucking quick.

I also have a baseball bat and a sword within arms reach.

I think we need to license and do a background check for sword and bat use, obviously you could lose your grip and they could fly out of control and kill someone, most likely one of your very own children. I will also assume you can show proof of JSA dojo membership and competence with the sword to show proper Giri form,whether it be Kesa or Yoko? Also , only those who have been in the minor leagues or higher and who spends at least 4 hours per month in cage practice can be permitted to wield a bat, the bat will b e made of approved hardwood or size and weight. Failure to comply will be considered a felony criminal act.

 

[Beefbisquit]

I think we need to license and do a background check for sword and bat use, obviously you could lose your grip and they could fly out of control and kill someone, most likely one of your very own children. I will also assume you can show proof of JSA dojo membership and competence with the sword to show proper Giri form,whether it be Kesa or Yoko? Also , only those who have been in the minor leagues or higher and who spends at least 4 hours per month in cage practice can be permitted to wield a bat, the bat will b e made of approved hardwood or size and weight. Failure to comply will be considered a felony criminal act.

Another outlandish diatribe.

Either you're an idiot, or you can tell the difference between a bat and a gun and I don't need to waste my time explaining it to you.

If you actually are an idiot, I'm still not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

 

[cannabineer]

Here in lies the problem, why does the USA have so many gun murders per year compared to every other developed nation? Someone please answer this question! I don't give a shit if the USA has less deaths than some African and South American countries.

Brazil and Russia ARE developed nations. If you believe the comments, folks with knowledge of those countries were appalled by the failure of their crime stats to be properly represented. Perhaps some countries soft-pedal their murder stats. But unless the comments are full of beans, the table of stats is already to be regarded as "BS".

There is a reasonable expectation to life, if you are breaking the law in a way that undermines someone else's life, you might be arrested or killed. If I'm walking down the street and catch a bullet from a citizen shooting at someone who stole their wallet, I'd say that's not exactly fair, wouldn't you? Is your wallet worth my life?

You are seeming to insinuate that the story ends there. The random shooter will be tried for murder. That should precisely satisfy your reasonable expectation. Every person who carries legally has signed off on knowing this. This serves as a brake on the sort of behavior you're holding up as the threat.

Keep in mind that a reasonable expectation of life is not absolute. We're letting New York cops shoot as you've described and not making a stink about it. Is a carry-related shooting somehow "more OK" if it's by someone uniformed? If so, the propagandists have WON, and I should just lie down and wait. ~sigh~

If you heathens (not you bear) would actually listen to what people are saying instead of assuming everyone wants your "precious guns" maybe some progress would get made instead of the continual "stick head up ass, and ignore everything", argument I've been hearing.

 

[st0wandgrow]

I've yet to see a single person suggest that we should take away everyone's guns. I have seen suggestions on proper background checks, proper training requiring a yearly re-certification, and proper storage and security of guns. All of the above seem like common sense, reasoned ideas to help curb gun violence in this country.

Those suggestions are met with "you're insane", or "MAN UP" from the gun advocates. Why can't there be any middle ground here? Will it only become a good idea once you are personally affected by the issue, and until then you got your guns screw everyone else?

 

[Beefbisquit]

Brazil and Russia ARE developed nations.

Russia isn't on the list, and Brazil is a developing nation. Russia is too btw...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Developing_countries_map.png

If you believe the comments, folks with knowledge of those countries were appalled by the failure of their crime stats to be properly represented. Perhaps some countries soft-pedal their murder stats. But unless the comments are full of beans, the table of stats is already to be regarded as "BS".

Here's a different list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

You are seeming to insinuate that the story ends there. The random shooter will be tried for murder. That should precisely satisfy your reasonable expectation.

So, the person who didn't shoot me is tried for murder for making someone shoot me. Nice, I love proxy justice.

Every person who carries legally has signed off on knowing this. This serves as a brake on the sort of behavior you're holding up as the threat.

Keep in mind that a reasonable expectation of life is not absolute. We're letting New York cops shoot as you've described and not making a stink about it. Is a carry-related shooting somehow "more OK" if it's by someone uniformed? If so, the propagandists have WON, and I should just lie down and wait. ~sigh~

I agree, reasonable expectation is not absolute. And no, it's not more OK, but people who have CCW permits should have the knowledge to use their firearm in a manner consistent with the way police are trained to use them. I've said this like 1,000,000,000 times.

I'm not against CCW permits or guns in general. I'm against improper use, and storage of firearms. They're dangerous, more so than almost anything else that the public is trusted with, sans training. There's lots of dangerous stuff out there, but most of it employs common sense with its use, I don't see a common sense approach to firearms.

 

[Doer]

You know what, take your selective outrage and shove it.

I'm not sure who appointed you forum etiquette police, but I didn't get the memo. Insults are flying all over the place, and I am responding in kind. If you don't like it move along, or rip me back, but please stop with the "you are a coward to hide behind insults" finger wagging. You sound silly doing it.

Or you can move along and sow the silly insults elsewhere. If you would not say it face to face...well, I agree yours are not the only cowardly responses.

 

[Doer]

Another outlandish diatribe.

Either you're an idiot, or you can tell the difference between a bat and a gun and I don't need to waste my time explaining it to you.

If you actually are an idiot, I'm still not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

Well now, Sophist. They are all just tools, right?

 

[NoDrama]

I'm not against CCW permits or guns in general. I'm against improper use, and storage of firearms. They're dangerous, more so than almost anything else that the public is trusted with, sans training. There's lots of dangerous stuff out there, but most of it employs common sense with its use, I don't see a common sense approach to firearms.

How do you enforce the proper storage and safekeeping of guns? If the gun is in a locked container that would take significant force to get open and require one to break the law to even attempt good enough?

 

[Beefbisquit]

Or you can move along and sow the silly insults elsewhere. If you would not say it face to face...well, I agree yours are not the only cowardly responses.

All you've done is dig in your heels, ignore evidence, and scream like a spoiled brat that wants what he wants, when he wants it, how he wants it.

 

[cannabineer]

Russia isn't on the list, and Brazil is a developing nation. Russia is too btw...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Developing_countries_map.png



Here's a different list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate



So, the person who didn't shoot me is tried for murder for making someone shoot me. Nice, I love proxy justice.



I agree, reasonable expectation is not absolute. And no, it's not more OK, but people who have CCW permits should have the knowledge to use their firearm in a manner consistent with the way police are trained to use them. I've said this like 1,000,000,000 times.

I'm not against CCW permits or guns in general. I'm against improper use, and storage of firearms. They're dangerous, more so than almost anything else that the public is trusted with, sans training. There's lots of dangerous stuff out there, but most of it employs common sense with its use, I don't see a common sense approach to firearms.

I'm confused by your "person who didn't shoot me is tried" comment. In your scenario one person fired one shot, hitting a second person with whom you identified. Person one will be tried for the shot he fired. Why are you changing it?

And your different list is indeed ... different. I would expect an especially high level of firearm-related deaths in Iraq and east-central Africa.

As for developed countries, conceded. I cannot find either Brazil or Russia listed among them. cn

 

[Beefbisquit]

How do you enforce the proper storage and safekeeping of guns? If the gun is in a locked container that would take significant force to get open and require one to break the law to even attempt good enough?

Will the box keep kids out of it?

Will the box prevent accidental discharge?

If someone in your home wanted to open the box without your permission, could they?

Would the box serve to further frustrate would be thieves?

 

[Beefbisquit]

I'm confused by your "person who didn't shoot me is tried" comment. In your scenario one person fired one shot, hitting a second person with whom you identified. Person one will be tried for the shot he fired. Why are you changing it?

Sorry for any confusion, I'll try to explain the scenario better and you can tell me the outcome.

Person A is getting robbed by person B.
Person A shoots and kills person B, and accidentally shoots and kills me as well.

Would person A, or person B, be charged with murder?

And your different list is indeed ... different. I would expect an especially high level of firearm-related deaths in Iraq and east-central Africa.

If you sort by homicide;

Country	Total firearm-related death rate	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional	Undetermined	Year	Sources and notes
El Salvador	50.36	50.36	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Jamaica	47.44	47.44	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Honduras	46.70	46.70	NA	NA	NA	2007	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Guatemala	38.52	38.52	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Swaziland	37.16	37.16	NA	NA	NA	2004	UNODC 2006[SUP][1][/SUP]
Colombia	28.11	27.10	0.87	0.14	NA	2009	UNODC 2011 [SUP][2][/SUP]
Brazil	19.01	18.10	0.73	0.18	NA	2008	UNODC 2011[SUP][3][/SUP]
Panama	12.92	12.92	NA	NA	NA	2010	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Mexico	11.14	10.00	0.67	0.47	NA	2010	UNODC 2011[SUP][4][/SUP]
Philippines	9.46	9.46	NA	NA	NA	2002	UNODC 2002[SUP][7][/SUP]
Paraguay	7.35	7.35	NA	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[SUP][11][/SUP]
Nicaragua	7.14	7.14	NA	NA	NA	2007	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Zimbabwe	4.75	4.75	NA	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[SUP][11][/SUP]
United States	10.2	3.7	6.1	0.2	0.1	2009	OAS 2012[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]

Not one developed country is even remotely close to the USA in gun murders per 100,000 people.

As for developed countries, conceded. I cannot find either Brazil or Russia listed among them. cn

Thank you, sir.

 

[cannabineer]

Sorry for any confusion, I'll try to explain the scenario better and you can tell me the outcome.

Person A is getting robbed by person B.
Person A shoots and kills person B, and accidentally shoots and kills me as well.

Would person A, or person B, be charged with murder?




If you sort by homicide;

Country	Total firearm-related death rate	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional	Undetermined	Year	Sources and notes
El Salvador	50.36	50.36	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Jamaica	47.44	47.44	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Honduras	46.70	46.70	NA	NA	NA	2007	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Guatemala	38.52	38.52	NA	NA	NA	2009	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Swaziland	37.16	37.16	NA	NA	NA	2004	UNODC 2006[SUP][1][/SUP]
Colombia	28.11	27.10	0.87	0.14	NA	2009	UNODC 2011 [SUP][2][/SUP]
Brazil	19.01	18.10	0.73	0.18	NA	2008	UNODC 2011[SUP][3][/SUP]
Panama	12.92	12.92	NA	NA	NA	2010	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Mexico	11.14	10.00	0.67	0.47	NA	2010	UNODC 2011[SUP][4][/SUP]
Philippines	9.46	9.46	NA	NA	NA	2002	UNODC 2002[SUP][7][/SUP]
Paraguay	7.35	7.35	NA	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[SUP][11][/SUP]
Nicaragua	7.14	7.14	NA	NA	NA	2007	OAS 2011[SUP][1][/SUP]
Zimbabwe	4.75	4.75	NA	NA	NA	2000	UNODC 2000[SUP][11][/SUP]
United States	10.2	3.7	6.1	0.2	0.1	2009	OAS 2012[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]

Not one developed country is even remotely close to the USA in gun murders.



Thank you, sir.

But the header is "gun-related deaths", which obviously includes military and paramilitary operations. The belt from the 'Stans to Uganda sees a lot of that. I view with distaste that somehwere between the header and list, "deaths" became reduced to "homicides" without advisory or explanation.

Also here was your original scenario.

If I'm walking down the street and catch a bullet from a citizen shooting at someone who stole their wallet, I'd say that's not exactly fair, wouldn't you?

Now you say not "shot at" but "shot". Imo you moved those goalposts. The original had one person being hit. The wallet thief got away.

It's your scenario, but even so,I can't see one in which you are "un-deaded". I will ceremonially invert a pint glass for you. cn

 

[NoDrama]

Will the box keep kids out of it?

Will the box prevent accidental discharge?

If someone in your home wanted to open the box without your permission, could they?

Would the box serve to further frustrate would be thieves?

I have never seen a kid get in one, unless said box was left open.
The box will most certainly prevent accidental discharge, unauthorized entry into this box would in most states be a felony act and in some states is legal reason for justifiable homicide committed against said box opener.
Someone in the home probably could open the box, but the ammo is stored elsewhere in a different container altogether so it becomes a well machined club without ammo.
The box would most likely frustrate a thief, some of the boxes are very elaborate with security systems and lighting and so forth.

So how about it?

 

[Doer]

All you've done is dig in your heels, ignore evidence, and scream like a spoiled brat that wants what he wants, when he wants it, how he wants it.

Well, like said you have the rep as the Sophist around here. Are you about to swerve into black holes again? I have not dug heels and the only screaming I've mentioned is the martial technique. And I have calmly asked for the evidence you can't provide. So, the arguments are false and getting more so. Just like with the black holes.

 

[NoDrama]

Not one developed country is even remotely close to the USA in gun murders per 100,000 people.



Thank you, sir.

The US population and the # of guns in the USA is greater than all of those countries combined. Logic would only dictate that the USA would have more deaths by firearm.

We have more tractors too, and more deaths by tractor.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Or you can move along and sow the silly insults elsewhere. If you would not say it face to face...well, I agree yours are not the only cowardly responses.

I'll move along if/when I feel like it, and how do you know I wouldn't say every single thing to your face that I have typed out here? You have no idea who you're talking to, and pretending otherwise is kinda foolish.

 

[Beefbisquit]

But the header is "gun-related deaths", which obviously includes military and paramilitary operations. The belt from the 'Stans to Uganda sees a lot of that. I view with distaste that somehwere between the header and list, "deaths" became reduced to "homicides" without advisory or explanation.

I thought the table was easily read, the table is for "Total Gun Related Deaths" - That is the default sorting method. However, if you click on "Homicides", it changes the sorting method to sort by Homicides. The graph that is displayed is clearly sorted by Homicides, as the table goes ascending to descending based on number of homicides, and nothing else.

Also here was your original scenario.


Now you say not "shot at" but "shot". Imo you moved those goalposts. The original had one person being hit. The wallet thief got away.

It's your scenario, but even so,I can't see one in which you are "un-deaded". I will ceremonially invert a pint glass for you. cn

The original scenario neither eludes to capture, escape, or death. Only that I, a bystander, was shot in the act. Does the blame shift in either scenario if the robber/Person B lives, or dies? I can't see that making any difference in who's blame my death lies with?