Is there anything that would have stopped Adam Lanza from the massacre?

canndo said:
You want a governemnt that does not intrude in the affairs of its citizens making it manditory, regardless of one's religious beliefs or moral comprehensions to be trained with weapons of war. Israel has a rather "equal" distribution of wealth and income btw. Now it is not the shooting deaths that need to be counted but the number of incidences that were ended by teachers with weapons.
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those who have a moral objection to carrying firearms would then be encouraged to find employment elsewhere. there is no other solution to this problem than armed citizens ready and willing to meet any threat with deadly force. you can make a law right now outlawing every conceivable weapon for all citizens and you will still have crazy people intent on killing other people finding a way to accomplish their goal.
 
canndo said:
Here is your problem. you can't find any correlation at all. It isn't the percentage of guns in a community, it isn't the form of entertainment, it isn't drugs (much as some would love it to be that way). The only correlation to be found is the one I mentioned. If that is the case, you folks havn't got a solution or even an idea as to a solution. I do.
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There is an extremely obvious correlation with mass shootings: insanity. Low taxes on the rich might drive up the rate of insanity, I suppose.

Lanza was from a prosperous family, maybe even rich. Maybe all those low taxes on his family drove him crazy? I expect Buffett to shoot up a preschool any day now.
 
pmumbry said:
those who have a moral objection to carrying firearms would then be encouraged to find employment elsewhere. there is no other solution to this problem than armed citizens ready and willing to meet any threat with deadly force. you can make a law right now outlawing every conceivable weapon for all citizens and you will still have crazy people intent on killing other people finding a way to accomplish their goal.
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As I asked, how is it acceptable to have government force someone to learn to use and carry a firearm?
 
desert dude said:
There is an extremely obvious correlation with mass shootings: insanity. Low taxes on the rich might drive up the rate of insanity, I suppose.

Lanza was from a prosperous family, maybe even rich. Maybe all those low taxes on his family drove him crazy? I expect Buffett to shoot up a preschool any day now.
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You are looking at a single case. Overall, the nations with the least amount of social inequality have the least number of mass, seemingly motiveless shootings.
 
beenthere said:
What perplexes me is the fact it is happening in "gun free zones" don't these idiots understand they are breaking the law?
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We saw that Beenthere, and yes, we all see the irony in your statement. Have you anything to add? What in your opinion is the reason for all of these shootings? Not enough guns? too many guns? or does it have anything to do with guns at all?
 
canndo said:
You want a governemnt that does not intrude in the affairs of its citizens making it manditory, regardless of one's religious beliefs or moral comprehensions to be trained with weapons of war. Israel has a rather "equal" distribution of wealth and income btw. Now it is not the shooting deaths that need to be counted but the number of incidences that were ended by teachers with weapons.
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Don't you see? The fact that the teachers are armed is a deterrent, who knows how many Lanzas there are in Israel who would have done a similar thing if only the teachers weren't armed? What idiot would walk into a police station and start shooting up the place knowing that everyone in there is armed and trained to use those arms? The idiot would not get very far with his plan. It is the same in schools. If you announce that school is a gun free zone, even a little wimp like Lanza can walk in and do as he pleases with the place with just 1 gun, or 1 knife like the guy in China.
 
canndo said:
As I asked, how is it acceptable to have government force someone to learn to use and carry a firearm?
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No one is forcing them to do anything. Just like it is a job requirement for cops to carry and know how to use guns, it should be a job requirement for teachers as well. If someone has objections to doing that, they need not apply.
 
canndo said:
You are looking at a single case. Overall, the nations with the least amount of social inequality have the least number of mass, seemingly motiveless shootings.
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That doesn't take into account the overall prevalence of guns in the USA, where 89.8% of people own a firearm of some kind. Your correlation does not explain why, it is not the sole predictor of errant behavior with firearms. It may very well be a piece of the puzzle, but it certainly is not the only cause.
 
pmumbry said:
Don't you see? The fact that the teachers are armed is a deterrent, who knows how many Lanzas there are in Israel who would have done a similar thing if only the teachers weren't armed? What idiot would walk into a police station and start shooting up the place knowing that everyone in there is armed and trained to use those arms? The idiot would not get very far with his plan. It is the same in schools. If you announce that school is a gun free zone, even a little wimp like Lanza can walk in and do as he pleases with the place with just 1 gun, or 1 knife like the guy in China.
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If that is the case then it is impossible to measure. Lots of these people are not firm in mentality, we do not know if they might indeed, walk into a police station. Some of them are taking to shooting themselves in the end, or allowing themselves to be shot to death by authorities. This would make for very elaborate suicides if teachers were now involved. As I said and you seem to have missed, Israel society has rough equivlencies in income. I have been making the case that it is not the fact that the teachers are armed but that there is less tendency for shooters to enter schools and shoot children in the first place.

Now, that aside, we have had mall shootings as well, are you also going to advocate that the government force retail clerks to carry weapons as well?
 
NoDrama said:
That doesn't take into account the overall prevalence of guns in the USA, where 89.8% of people own a firearm of some kind. Your correlation does not explain why, it is not the sole predictor of errant behavior with firearms. It may very well be a piece of the puzzle, but it certainly is not the only cause.
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Note that there is rough social equality in Canada, and there is a predominance of privately owned weapons there much like there is here, yet there aren't many mass shootings there either.


Of course in a country with a deep economic divide where there are few firearms, we won't see very many mass shootings but as you and I agree, the time for banning firearms on a massive scale in this country is long long over. If my correlation is even somewhat correct, it would go a long way to fixing a problem that has no other fix than arming teachers.
 
canndo said:
If that is the case then it is impossible to measure. Lots of these people are not firm in mentality, we do not know if they might indeed, walk into a police station. Some of them are taking to shooting themselves in the end, or allowing themselves to be shot to death by authorities. This would make for very elaborate suicides if teachers were now involved. As I said and you seem to have missed, Israel society has rough equivlencies in income. I have been making the case that it is not the fact that the teachers are armed but that there is less tendency for shooters to enter schools and shoot children in the first place.

Now, that aside, we have had mall shootings as well, are you also going to advocate that the government force retail clerks to carry weapons as well?
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Force people to carry guns? Bad idea.

Abolish "gun free zones" and allow people the means to protect themselves against the infinitesimally small chance of being killed by a crazed mass murderers. Good idea.
 
pmumbry said:
No one is forcing them to do anything. Just like it is a job requirement for cops to carry and know how to use guns, it should be a job requirement for teachers as well. If someone has objections to doing that, they need not apply.
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There is a difference between a cop being required to carry a gun and a kindergarden teacher being required to carry one.
 
desert dude said:
Force people to carry guns? Bad idea.

Abolish "gun free zones" and allow people the means to protect themselves against the infinitesimally small chance of being killed by a crazed mass murderers. Good idea.
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Perhaps a good idea, but there are other factors. Ongoing training being one. If I had a kindergardener at school I would be worried that the teacher was unable to control his or her weapon in a room full of children. I would be concerned that her overzealousness in the face of a possible attack might endanger my child - those things may present more of a threat than as you say, the infinitesimal chance that a crazed killer might enter the classroom. There is also the message sent to my child. I am not sure I want my child to be brought up believing that the only safe way for her to live is to carry a weapon. This is not so different than my not wanting my child indoctrinated into religious practices - those things are my right and responsibility not the school's.
 
personally i think the entire population should be encouraged to carry firearms. less robberies, less kidnappings, less mass shootings, etc.
 
canndo said:
Perhaps a good idea, but there are other factors. Ongoing training being one. If I had a kindergardener at school I would be worried that the teacher was unable to control his or her weapon in a room full of children. I would be concerned that her overzealousness in the face of a possible attack might endanger my child - those things may present more of a threat than as you say, the infinitesimal chance that a crazed killer might enter the classroom. There is also the message sent to my child. I am not sure I want my child to be brought up believing that the only safe way for her to live is to carry a weapon. This is not so different than my not wanting my child indoctrinated into religious practices - those things are my right and responsibility not the school's.
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Your child, your decision. I respect that. Send her to private school. Home school her.

I don't want my children brought up believing that the government will protect them, or that superstitiously fixating on cosmetic features of a gun somehow defines it as an "assault weapon".

As a grown man, I don't want to live in a country structured by hand-wringers for children.

You can't eliminate all threats. Shit happens. Is it possible that an armed citizen will be ham handed and accidentally shoot an innocent person? Yes, it is.

In the Sandy Hook shooting, would it have been better if every adult employee of that school were armed? Yes, almost certainly.
 
canndo said:
There is a difference between a cop being required to carry a gun and a kindergarden teacher being required to carry one.
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what difference? you entrust the cop to carry a firearm in the course of his or her duties to protect the citizens, what is the big deal with allowing the teacher to carry a firearm in the duties they are assigned 9protecting your children while they are under their care)? it is already being done in Israel, and as i have pointed out there has only been 8 shooting deaths in Israeli schools in the last 10 years. Lanza broke over 40 laws carrying out his attack, do you really think even more laws being in place would have stopped him? Lanza: "Hmm, I will be breaking 50 laws when I go shoot up this kindergarten class, perhaps i should rethink my position."

vs: "Hmm, teachers and staff at the school will be armed and trained to use those arms, perhaps i should find an easier target".

Which of these do you think will work? Lanza broke at least 40 different laws in the commission of his crime, i do not believe he would have reconsidered his position if there were a few more laws on the books against what he was intent on doing. I do believe, in my heart, that if the teacher in that room would have had a gun on her person there would have been way fewer deaths. All teachers should be armed and trained to protect those under their charge.
 
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