donmagicjuan
Active Member
ha ha ha "this leaf is blocking the light" ha ha ha
Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???
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stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
Your plant in your avatar is not a bushy plant and isn't a real leafy one either. I wouldn't cut leaves off of that either.
It's funny that the breeder of his plants recommends defoliation for that strain, but that means nothing? They (DNA) must just be stupid noobs too huh?
I've been growing for 20 years, your plant is typical for an experienced grower, you aren't a pot-god anymore than I am a noob. Defoliation can be beneficial whether you want to agree or not but saying people are defoliating just because they are trying to cover up leaf necrosis is a pretty fucking dumb statement.
SpliffAndMyLady
Well-Known Member
Everything you have posted in this thread is a "pretty fucking dumb statement" . Straight up, dumbass.
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
Awww all asshurt because I picked on your buddy... poor kid. And this is your reply in this debate? You are calling me dumbass? HA! You're kind of a funny dumbfuck.
Huel Perkins
Well-Known Member
Some of this i stole from myself on other threads where this topic came up, sorry to copy/paste myself!
I used to believe in defoliation, i practiced it for years and even preached it to others. I grew the same strain from the same mother for 3-4 years straight with no other varieties, producing many pounds of dope. During that time i did just about every side by side experiment i could thing of and also tried 4 different nutrient brands and some lab testing...
I conclusively determined defoliation does one thing thats good, it stops big fan leaves from shadowing bud sites and allows light to penetrate deeper into the plant to hit lower bud sites. More direct light to these bud sites develops denser / fuller buds. Sounds great but it is a double edge sword...
Any time you remove healthy fan leaves from a flowering plant, you are sacrificing the overall health of the plant and that is a fact. This will slow the growth of buds over the entire plant. When plants can't make as much food and can't breath as well as they could before their fan leaves were removed they're not going to be able to produce as much flower mass. You can argue this all day long but you're wrong, its fact not a theory.
There are a couple things you can do that can provide the benefits of defoliation without the negative side effects. The first one is very simple, instead of chopping leaves off you can tuck them off to the side unshading lower bud sites. The next thing to do is the most beneficial, don't overcrowd your room and have enough light. If your plants are too bunched up and crowded together and you don't have enough light to penetrate down to the base of the plant, that is the reason your plants are producing airy popcorn buds, not god's design. Simply expanding your grow room and adding some side lighting while keeping the same plant count can really improve yield, bud density and overall health of most people's gardens without defoliation.
Every heard of anyone saying they cut off fan leaves on their outdoor plants to unshade lower buds? I sure haven't
Unlike the light from the sun our indoor lighting loses a substantial amount of it's intensity the further away from the plant it is. Also unlike the light from the sun, our lights are stationary and shine down at our buds from the same angle everyday. This is why outdoor plants get full dense buds top to bottom, they get full light intensity over the whole plant (not just the top) and the angle at which the light hits the plant changes every minute of the day. These are the aspects of mother nature we need to try to replicate to get full dense buds top to bottom, not cutting off the leaves which are solely responsible for the entire growth of the plant.
I completely understand the impact defoliation has and why people choose to do it. I also understand that leaves are the most important part of the plant because leaves are what drives the growth of the buds and the entire plant for that matter. The whole reason our plants need water, light and CO2 is because they are absolutely essential for photosynthesis to happen. Photosynthesis is what drives all plant growth, including buds. Everything we do to our plants to attempt to improve growth such as better lighting, better nutes, better water supply, CO2 enrichment, perfect temps, ect is all to speed up the rate of photosynthesis and nothing more. All of this photosynthesis happens in the leaves of the plant and any time you remove healthy leaves you hinder photosynthesis and plant growth altogether.
I know plants have the ability to lose some leaves and still remain strong and that defoliation to let direct light to hit lower buds to improve their growth does in fact work but there is a cost. Its just like the saying rob Peter to pay Paul, you're making a sacrifice in one area to improve another. Trading overall yield to get tighter upper buds...
This is the reason for the last year, I've stopped chopping leaves and instead been adding side lighting in the form of cfl bulbs in addition to my hid lighting. Some free hanging cfl's hung right down into the canopy between plants add light intensity to lower bud sites and allow light to hit bud sites from multiple angles much more accurately mimicking mother nature than a single over head light.
I used to believe in defoliation, i practiced it for years and even preached it to others. I grew the same strain from the same mother for 3-4 years straight with no other varieties, producing many pounds of dope. During that time i did just about every side by side experiment i could thing of and also tried 4 different nutrient brands and some lab testing...
I conclusively determined defoliation does one thing thats good, it stops big fan leaves from shadowing bud sites and allows light to penetrate deeper into the plant to hit lower bud sites. More direct light to these bud sites develops denser / fuller buds. Sounds great but it is a double edge sword...
Any time you remove healthy fan leaves from a flowering plant, you are sacrificing the overall health of the plant and that is a fact. This will slow the growth of buds over the entire plant. When plants can't make as much food and can't breath as well as they could before their fan leaves were removed they're not going to be able to produce as much flower mass. You can argue this all day long but you're wrong, its fact not a theory.
There are a couple things you can do that can provide the benefits of defoliation without the negative side effects. The first one is very simple, instead of chopping leaves off you can tuck them off to the side unshading lower bud sites. The next thing to do is the most beneficial, don't overcrowd your room and have enough light. If your plants are too bunched up and crowded together and you don't have enough light to penetrate down to the base of the plant, that is the reason your plants are producing airy popcorn buds, not god's design. Simply expanding your grow room and adding some side lighting while keeping the same plant count can really improve yield, bud density and overall health of most people's gardens without defoliation.
Every heard of anyone saying they cut off fan leaves on their outdoor plants to unshade lower buds? I sure haven't
Unlike the light from the sun our indoor lighting loses a substantial amount of it's intensity the further away from the plant it is. Also unlike the light from the sun, our lights are stationary and shine down at our buds from the same angle everyday. This is why outdoor plants get full dense buds top to bottom, they get full light intensity over the whole plant (not just the top) and the angle at which the light hits the plant changes every minute of the day. These are the aspects of mother nature we need to try to replicate to get full dense buds top to bottom, not cutting off the leaves which are solely responsible for the entire growth of the plant.
I completely understand the impact defoliation has and why people choose to do it. I also understand that leaves are the most important part of the plant because leaves are what drives the growth of the buds and the entire plant for that matter. The whole reason our plants need water, light and CO2 is because they are absolutely essential for photosynthesis to happen. Photosynthesis is what drives all plant growth, including buds. Everything we do to our plants to attempt to improve growth such as better lighting, better nutes, better water supply, CO2 enrichment, perfect temps, ect is all to speed up the rate of photosynthesis and nothing more. All of this photosynthesis happens in the leaves of the plant and any time you remove healthy leaves you hinder photosynthesis and plant growth altogether.
I know plants have the ability to lose some leaves and still remain strong and that defoliation to let direct light to hit lower buds to improve their growth does in fact work but there is a cost. Its just like the saying rob Peter to pay Paul, you're making a sacrifice in one area to improve another. Trading overall yield to get tighter upper buds...
This is the reason for the last year, I've stopped chopping leaves and instead been adding side lighting in the form of cfl bulbs in addition to my hid lighting. Some free hanging cfl's hung right down into the canopy between plants add light intensity to lower bud sites and allow light to hit bud sites from multiple angles much more accurately mimicking mother nature than a single over head light.
donmagicjuan
Active Member
if ur plants are too big for ur light, well, theres ur answer, sorry to be painfully obvious
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
I think my plants are just fine.Granted they are only 4 weeks into flower.
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
I'm having a hell of a time keeping up with these necrotic leaves too..
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Report back 4 weeks from now (which aint ever gonna happen)I'm having a hell of a time keeping up with these necrotic leaves too..
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
I can guarantee you that it will happen.
Of course in 4 weeks these will be nearing harvest and I will probably trim off a lot more of the fans as they start to fatten. I'll make sure I post a picture for you before I cut any off ok? I would never give you the opportunity to say I cut them because they were necrotic (that is what will never happpen) 
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
I guess they do get necrotic during their last week alive.
And it's not like this is my first grow and I don't know what to expect..
And it's not like this is my first grow and I don't know what to expect..
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
You sir are a tool masquerading as a knowitall.
What's your big contribution to this community -- a stickied thread about how to top to get 2 or 4 main colas? Gimme a break.
What's your second biggest contribution to this community -- calling anyone who doesn't do things your way a noob?
Jeeze, why don't they just make you supreme high ruler of ganja. Oh, I see -- you already think you are.
Stop acting like a douche, and people might actually start to respect your opinions.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you do that, shit-fer-brains.
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Thanks for proving my point.
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
Oh you want to start name calling now? Maturity isn't your strong point huh? Not to mention youbjust lost the debate... thanks.
donmagicjuan
Active Member
just because they are healthy doesnt mean they arent too big for ur light, if u lst differently and grow shorter you can make better use of ur light and ur fan leaves while wasting less time on veg. one of ur lights is shitty and whats up with ur pics stolen from open grow?
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I didn't name call, I just said you don't have a lick of botanical sense.
I don't lose anything, especially when it comes to potential yields. Some of us understand what makes a plant tick, and it aint your kinda hearsay. This is science, not anecdotal forum ballyhype.
Don't really care, you do and preach what you want. I'll stick to botany as I have for 40 years......gardening every kind of plant material you can imagine.
See that first photo with all its dark green fan leaves still intact after 7 weeks of flowering? Gotta clue what's happening there? It's producing carbos thru a process called photosynthesis. Now, what does that do regarding production? Go figure....... Also, that shot is not your typical closeup of the top 3" of a cola. It's solid bud AND LEAF for at least 18" top to bottom.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Hmmmmmmm......got a link?
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
You mean my pics from opengrow that I use here because they show up full size? Do I need to post the originals here without the open grow logo so you believe me.. gawd... pretty obvious thats my room but whatever man.
stumpjumper
Well-Known Member
Umm ya I can match those and raise you anydays man. Nice buds tho but not anything that I don't pull every single grow. Except you top your plant and get 4 big colas. I get an average of 10-13 BIG COLAS PER PLANT. Must be my lack of horticultural knowledge huh? 18" buds is caveman easy dude pat youself on the back.
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