saving electricity

nongreenthumb

nongreenthumb

Well-Known Member
I havent got a problem at all with videoman or yourself, you didnt create any misinformation but as site mod i found it a little disapointing to see you applauding him about the mis-information he provided on this particular infomercial.

Havent got a problem with either of you just a little bit disapointed by this thread thats all.

:?
 
babygro

babygro

Well-Known Member
Garden Knowm said:
I hear ya.. my bad for not reading the entire thread.... i appreciate your forthcoming!!! :)
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I agree with nongreenthumb, it seems perverse giving someone +rep points for putting information into a thread about saving electricity that is complete and utter rubbish.

Sure, V-man's inputs here are generally pretty solid and useful and on that I agree, but he clearly knows very little about electricity sadly.

I'm not having a go at him in any way, I'm merely stating that his information in this thread is not only wrong it's misleading as well and he should just put his hand up and admit his mistake and have done with it.
 
videoman40

videoman40

Well-Known Member
Well thank you, all of you, babygro, NGT and the knowm. In fact in the other post regarding this topic, I responded, I stated today that while my conclusion was true, the reasoning was incorrect. Nongreenthumb, you are correct in how we are billed, however, the savings is dependant on line loss.

Alpha1 explained it best:

"I don't have to go check with some one else and tell ya later because I lived it 30 + years. higher voltage lower current smaller wire. The guy buying the wire sometimes saves more than 50%. Does the end user paying the electric bill save 50% most likely not but he does save and here is how. Wire has a thing called line loss. Most people have unpluged a cord and said damn thats hot. Line loss plus every connection it goes through has line loss. It is lost in the form of heat. Watts you pay for that don't get to the light. Higher voltage less current = less loss in the form of heat. And in some extreme cases it could be 50% and that is where all those electrical house fires come from line loss in loose electricial connections. After a while they get so hot they catch on fire. When wire gets hot it swells and when it cools it shrinks. The longer it does this the worse it gets and more loss. How much you save at 220 depends on your wire/connection condition. So why do we have 120/220 ? In Europe they only have 220 period. 220 is better and you can't prove other wise. The point here being cost. Well by the time you rewire your house to the lights it will cost you every thing you were going to save. The shit on the pole outside your house is 220. Us real smart electricians like master licenced tx electrician TEC11302 wanted to make things safer for end users so we changed it to 120. OOps we were wrong and just burned down houses. There are very few electricial fires in Europe. DO NOT WIRE YOUR OWN SHIT UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW. Electricians do not learn how to be electricians on their own and it takes a long time and we never learn all we need to learn. Mankind still don't understand eletricity we only know how we use it. These stressed out debates is common between us electricians and I don't know why. At 50+ some of us start calming down. Many of use have asked you to let it go. So pleased let it go. If that don't work try smoking a joint or 2 . Still need someone to fight with then do it with me and leave videoman alone we don't want to loose him he helps us learn how to grow. But please lets do it somewhere else this is a grow forum."
 
babygro

babygro

Well-Known Member
videoman40 said:
Well thank you, all of you, babygro, NGT and the knowm. In fact in the other post regarding this topic, I responded, I stated today that while my conclusion was true, the reasoning was incorrect. Nongreenthumb, you are correct in how we are billed, however, the savings is dependant on line loss.
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V-man - no they're not, savings are NOT dependant on line loss or cable resistance and even if they were it's totally rediculous to consider they'd be anywhere near the 50% of your original claim.

You're wrong on this and as I said earlier - just stick your hand up mate and admit you got it wrong, because the longer you try and defend the indefensible the dafter you look.

Your wild and wonderful estimate of 50% savings switching to 240 volts was not based on line loss - it was based on using half the amperage - which as most people have pointed out was flawed logic. Your opinion that savings are made from line loss is dependant on a couple of assumptions that may or may not be true. If people use the correct amperage wire at an optimum length from the lighting ballast there will be NEGLIGIBLE line loss if any at all - so where are the line loss savings coming from? Where's this estimate of 50% savings coming from? Also this applies equally to 120v or 240v - it's not dependant on the voltage.

I don't want to get into this argument, because as far as I'm concerned you're wrong both about the savings made on going from 120v to 240v and the savings made from line loss. Read the following and then come back to me hand on heart and say you're still right -

120v vs 240v
Many people are misinformed about the method in which power companies charge for electricity usage. Many growers believe that if a ballast is rewired from 120v to 240v they will save up to 50% on the power bills. The reason for this is belief that households are charged by the amperage. This may be due to the fact that, on average, most households only have up to 200amps available and that each circuit breaker is rated in amps. The truth is that very little savings will be noted if growers changed their ballasts from 120v to 240v. Lighting systems that run on 240v will only require half the amperage but not half the wattage. The method for calculating this is: Amps x Volts = Watts.

For example: A lighting system that runs on 120v and draws 6 amps of current will consume 120v x 6 amps = 660w; this would typically be a 600w lighting system. If the same ballast was wired to 240v then the amperage would be 660w/240v = 2.75amps, but the wattage would still be the same.

Power companies do not charge by amperage or volts; they charge by kilowatt hours. For example one 1000w HID system being run for 1 hour will incur a cost of 1 kilowatt hour.

So then, why have 240v? There are many reasons for using 240v; however, the main reason for indoor gardeners has to do with amperage. If a grower is running 5 x 1000w lights at 120v which draws 9.5amps of current per lamp, then 5 separate 15 or 20amp circuit breakers would be required to run the 5 lighting systems. If the same grower was running their lights on 240v instead of 120v then three lights could be run on one 20 amp circuit.

There is another factor which makes 240v “better” than 120v. This has to do with voltage drop or the voltage lost due to resistance when power travels down a cable. The lower the resistance on the wire, the less the voltage drop. The shorter the distance between the power socket and the ballast, the lower the voltage drop. A thicker power cable will also reduce the voltage drop due to less resistance.

Source: Electricity Explained | BGHydro
 
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fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
i'm a simple man. electicity has always confused me. i can't see it. i think babygro said it best. simple easy to understand. i get it. lights are watts, billing is in watts. pretty easy.

+rep for babygro.
 
videoman40

videoman40

Well-Known Member
Well, I may be ignorant in electricity, as it is not my career move, I do however know how to call my electric company, and they informed me that there is indeed a cost savings using the 240 instead of 120. Other places may vary, I dont know. It will be based on what the apliance is, for a hps light, the warm up time would be reduced, and that is where the savings will come in, not from line loss or from my appearant mis-calculations, so we were all wrong.
Call your own electric company to verify this.
Peace
 
mogie

mogie

Well-Known Member
Okay a even simpler Mogie breakdown.

I plug it in. It uses juice. I get a bill. I pay it or they turn my electric off. Crap that is bad.

That sums up my knowledge of this subject. Seems to work for me.
 
babygro

babygro

Well-Known Member
videoman40 said:
Well, I may be ignorant in electricity, as it is not my career move, I do however know how to call my electric company, and they informed me that there is indeed a cost savings using the 240 instead of 120. Other places may vary, I dont know. It will be based on what the apliance is, for a hps light, the warm up time would be reduced, and that is where the savings will come in, not from line loss or from my appearant mis-calculations, so we were all wrong.
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No V-man, the only person who's wrong here I'm afraid is you.

At the end of the day, I couldn't give a rats ass as to whether you're right or wrong, but I do care about people being given misleading, innacurate and incorrect information and your original statement in this thread is exactly that. We seem to have come a long way from this -

videoman40 said:
Use the 240 instead of the 110 and you will save 50% on your bill.
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To this -

videoman40 said:
they informed me that there is indeed a cost savings using the 240 instead of 120.
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This rather smacks to me of a desperate attempt to save face, which to be quite honest is rather pathetic. There may well be 'marginal savings' to be made by switching to 240v from 120v but if the cabling used is the correct amperage, the distance from the ballast to the wall socket electrical input the correct distance - very little if any savings will be made from switching from 120v to 240v, and none at all if you're using a digital ballast.

There is a distinct advantage for switching from 120v to 240v, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with electricity saving and everything to do with running more amperage outlets off a single 20amp breaker - something you've never even mentioned.

There seems an awful lot of people on here at the moment spouting things they know nothing about, my advice is this - if you don't know what you're talking about - don't say anything.
 
babygro

babygro

Well-Known Member
mogie said:
That sums up my knowledge of this subject. Seems to work for me.
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Which makes one wonder why you felt the need to input that useless piece of information into a subject matter you know nothing about.

But then there seems an awful lot of people inputting lots of useless pieces of information into subjects on here they know nothing about.
 
videoman40

videoman40

Well-Known Member
Hey baby, it was no attempt to save face at all. I openly and willingly admit that my original post was wrong, no problem admitting it. I have no problem being humble and saying....I was wrong. I made a mistake....lets take me outback and beat the crap out of me. lol

Your attempt to come back here and start with the personal confrontations don't do much except to distract from the site. I feel for you, maybe if you weren't hostile at your other sites you frequent, you could actually make a home at one, and possibly stay for a while, rather than being tosssed out for your own misinformation, and ramblings.

The fact remains that my mistake is one, that appearantly alot of people make. Get over it and move on. I learned something, and obviously I'll never hire my neighbor as an electrician. lol
 
pauliojr

pauliojr

Well-Known Member
videoman40 said:
Hey baby, it was no attempt to save face at all. I openly and willingly admit that my original post was wrong, no problem admitting it. I have no problem being humble and saying....I was wrong. I made a mistake....lets take me outback and beat the crap out of me. lol

Your attempt to come back here and start with the personal confrontations don't do much except to distract from the site. I feel for you, maybe if you weren't hostile at your other sites you frequent, you could actually make a home at one, and possibly stay for a while, rather than being tosssed out for your own misinformation, and ramblings.

The fact remains that my mistake is one, that appearantly alot of people make. Get over it and move on. I learned something, and obviously I'll never hire my neighbor as an electrician. lol
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Well said Videoman. I don't know why people have to be such hard asses sometimes. Just say, "No you're wrong, here is the right information". If Videoman had electricians that he trusted why wouldn't he believe them!?? At least you admitted being wrong. Let's move on and let this topic run its course through the forum. You may not be an electrician, but you are a hell of a grower who has helped me out a TON. EXCEPT FOR THIS TOPIC WHICH I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR!!! LOL, just kidding as always my friend. See ya around.
 
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FallenHero

Guest
babygro said:
Which makes one wonder why you felt the need to input that useless piece of information into a subject matter you know nothing about.

But then there seems an awful lot of people inputting lots of useless pieces of information into subjects on here they know nothing about.
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no need to attack mogie, calm down.

-rep.
 
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