Any lightworkers?

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
lol oh Pad, I love science, just dont like the reluctance it has in exploring the rest of reality.

Also, Im afraid the insecurities are still held by you. It doesnt really take that much to figure that out. Just gotta scroll down the forum page and see that a closet hard-atheist is a mod for a subforum that begins with spirituality. Most of us here would just like to discuss with like minded people and have a good time, no recruiting going on, not trying hard to prove anything, because those like minded people will see how these ideas will apply to the illusion of reality. Then we get people like you who seem offended that these things are being discussed. You say "Nuh uh! This scientific authority says this about that, therefore that is bullshit, blah blah blah". Only then it turns into a game of 'prove it!', and that game only benefits you guys because no one from our side of the argument ever cares about what you guys have to say, just as you dont care about what we have to say because you find it ridiculous and it somehow offends you. If we did benefit from your criticisms, much more of us would be questioning ourselves and starting to favor agnosticism and atheism, that is clearly not the case.

REALITY
doesnt really give a shit about your beliefs.
Science is the only way to accurately explore reality. If accuracy doesn't matter to you, carry on with the way you're doing things, I like results and the power of prediction. While you will end up with a different conclusion each time, science will always be the same.

Do you think we reached the Moon on hopes and dreams alone? No, we didn't. It took decades of scientific advances, research and development, thousands of hours of hard work, commitment and dedication.

The beliefs you espouse could never accomplish such feats. What does that tell you about them?

It should tell you you believe them because they make you feel comfortable.


I'm insecure because I'm an agnostic atheist and a mod for the S,S & P section? How did you reach that conclusion? What am I insecure about, enlighten me.

I'm offended by ignorance. You are ignorant of science. If you weren't, you wouldn't come to the conclusions you do. It's a problem for the rest of us because you have the ability to influence the future. An educated, intelligent population is beneficial for everyone in it. An arrogantly ignorant one, isn't.

"prove it" only benefits us because we're the only ones that can. You rely on faith with much of your belief system. Faith doesn't benefit anyone.

Interesting because the statistics show a much higher percentage of non belief growing in the United States. It would seem what many of us are saying is actually getting through. Fancy that!
 

lokie

Well-Known Member
Science is the only way to accurately explore reality.

2 inexpedient stupid thoughts and actions colliding can produce an accurate ending and science would have nothing do with it.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
So 'if' there is such a thing as real spirituality, it has to wait for the toys of science to discover it before people should practice it?

If science were to prove god and souls to be real, opening an accessible world of secrets, would science still be the best method to discovery, or would spirituality?

Do you think its impossible for someone to stumble upon 'spiritual truth' without the use of the scientific process? Please try not to use unconvincing answers like "The mind is fallible, people think weather balloons are aliens, blah blah blah"

I have provided a better process. Knowing yourself is far more important than what a electron microscope or hadron colider can teach you. Also, deams, lucid dreams, amazing psychedelic trips, profound and 'paranormal' experiences, imagination, ALL better methods than science, imo.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
So 'if' there is such a thing as real spirituality, it has to wait for the toys of science to discover it before people should practice it?
What is "real spirituality"?

If science were to prove god and souls to be real, opening an accessible world of secrets, would science still be the best method to discovery, or would spirituality?
Science can't prove God or souls are real.

Do you think its impossible for someone to stumble upon 'spiritual truth' without the use of the scientific process? Please try not to use unconvincing answers like "The mind is fallible, people think weather balloons are aliens, blah blah blah"
What is "spiritual truth"?

I have provided a better process. Knowing yourself is far more important than what a electron microscope or hadron colider can teach you. Also, deams, lucid dreams, amazing psychedelic trips, profound and 'paranormal' experiences, imagination, ALL better methods than science, imo.
"knowing yourself" is not a process of discerning reality. I'm talking about a systematic approach to figuring the world out using consistent standards to analyze the evidence.

Each example you listed has the same problem; they're all subjective. How can you expect to understand what is objective using subjective means?
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
So 'if' there is such a thing as real spirituality, it has to wait for the toys of science to discover it before people should practice it?

If science were to prove god and souls to be real, opening an accessible world of secrets, would science still be the best method to discovery, or would spirituality?

Do you think its impossible for someone to stumble upon 'spiritual truth' without the use of the scientific process? Please try not to use unconvincing answers like "The mind is fallible, people think weather balloons are aliens, blah blah blah"

I have provided a better process. Knowing yourself is far more important than what a electron microscope or hadron colider can teach you. Also, deams, lucid dreams, amazing psychedelic trips, profound and 'paranormal' experiences, imagination, ALL better methods than science, imo.
I'm sorry, I forget. What practical values have these things produced again?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Eagle, I'll ask you this.

Let's say that spirituality is off limits to science.
Let's also say that the human individual is very prone to acquiring and getting rather territorial about favored delusions.
(This is not pure guess. If a hundred people believe a hundred mutually-inconsistent things, there are only two valid outcomes: 1) 99 are wrong. 2) 100 are wrong.)
Now, without a tool of discernment and test, how would I, the seeker, be able to tell spiritual wisdom from the awesome palette of delusion served alongside it?

THIS question has driven my exchange with Ganja Man.
It should not be held against me that I would like some way of checking to make sure I'm going with the right idea or in the right direction. This I believe with conviction ... it is an article of faith to me. cn
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
What is "real spirituality"?



Science can't prove God or souls are real.



What is "spiritual truth"?



"knowing yourself" is not a process of discerning reality. I'm talking about a systematic approach to figuring the world out using consistent standards to analyze the evidence.

Each example you listed has the same problem; they're all subjective. How can you expect to understand what is objective using subjective means?
I figured you would dance around these questions and avoid answers that make you uncomfortable.

Of course knowing yourself is a process of discerning reality. Why obsess with the outside, physical world if you dont even know who you are? A moon landing and a higgs boson is supposed to be more important to you than what goes on in your head/soul? ;) Everyone is experiencing reality subjectively as a whole. Some people are receptive of amazing parts of reality and some are not. Take Neer for example, an avid watcher of the heavens, as are millions of astronomers with an atheist mindset, yet they are unable to see these amazing things that a lot of other people are seeing like star-like objects flying across the sky and then blasting off into space, and orbs of light that blink in and out of existence (BTW Neer, I have seen the reflections of satellites you talk about, the periodic flashing is not at all what many of us are experiencing when we see these orbs). Video tapes of these things get no attention from the skeptics because they think they are fake, or people are just looking at something natural that they just cant explain, so theres really no convincing those that chose to box themselves in with skepticism.

I think getting obsessed with the outside world and what it has to tell you is silly, because you already have the answers, you just gotta dig them up. You search for objective truth even though you are experiencing reality subjectively from one perspective. Why is the outside reality more important than your OWN reality? Dreams help you discover yourself, lucid dreams turn you into god and are an offshoot of astral projection (where you can meet other astral travelers and later confirm you both were experiencing the same thing). Psychedelics turn the dial in your head so that you may be receptive to different vibratory realities. Profound experiences that defy conventional reality open your eyes to what reality really is, especially if those experiences are consistent like the ones I experience. And you use imagination in every aspect of your life like with art, music, sports, story telling, you can get imaginative with how you chose to urinate, everything! You first have to imagine a sandwich before you make it. You get more joy from imagination than anything, unless you've lost your way, imo.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
why don't you just go verify my claims instead of automatically dismissing them? you strive for proving how intelligent you are when you contribue NOTHING to what you stand for, being science. the way i see it you're jealous that i'm contributing to spread the light message.
So you have resorted to the tactics of a Jerry Springer trailer park teen? Jealousy may be the extent of your feelings toward others, but you can not assign that feeling to us when it's clear you are using it as a thought-terminating statement. You should start thinking things through rather than finding ways to dismiss, that way you could be consistent about what you say. Are we slaves to science blindly defending it, or do we contribute nothing to it? How convicted can you be in your beliefs when the slightest speed-bump, the slightest of objections, causes an eruption of mental dysentery?

start eating healthy and meditate, it's proven DMT exposes you to new realities (experiences if you wish to call them that). the sheer fact that you stand here in attempt to take my spiritual knowledge and experiences away from me without ever having been there first hand shows you are damaged to the point where you cannot feel that i am trying to communicate with someone who is not you or any of your little riu friends. i already got what i wanted here, i spread my light. no matter who receives it, i know i did my part. i can sense you have never done that so don't type trying to dismiss all the work done by myself and others. when you've experienced what i and many others have then you have the right to talk. at the moment you don't. i know you love responding but how about thinking about what i have said? goodbye and good luck my friend cn.
How good is your advice if you choose not to follow it yourself. You have no problem discounting rationality, which is what we have been taught by our experiences. We have no right to talk about your words, but you have the right to shit on us? Are you not trying to take away the lessons and truths we have gained though science? For as much as you talk about being enlightened and soul-searching within, you are a petty, biased, angry, intolerant fascist. You pretend to be a deep person, but you dwell in the shallow end of life. For all your soul searching, you have gained no control over the petty feelings which drive you. I have known and admired true spiritual seekers who, although they may not value science, they still value self correction and self assessment. What good is self examination if all it does it jerk you off and say how right you are? Do you suppose true spiritual growth never includes identification of areas you can grow? You have constructed a self-styled method of aggrandization which provides comfort and pleasure, but no real foundation of principals and conviction. You blow in the wind of the internet charlatans, borrowing what you like from this and that and filling in the rest with self-centered fantasy. You are surprised when others see through this? You are surprised when you can not patch the holes that others point out?



I have provided a better process. Knowing yourself is far more important than what a electron microscope or hadron colider can teach you. Also, deams, lucid dreams, amazing psychedelic trips, profound and 'paranormal' experiences, imagination, ALL better methods than science, imo.
Yet none of those methods will teach you about reality. You can spend a lifetime meditating, tripping and communing with the paranormal, and learn nothing about how the world works. You wont be able to do simple algebra, know nothing of basic chemistry, learn zero about biology, have no idea what to do when your body falls ill, and be clueless about how to interact with other people. What good are lucid dreams if you need to treat an infected tooth? What is DMT gonna do for you if you want to build a home that wont blow over in the first storm? How is meditating going to save you from an invading army? Spirituality has had a very long time to provide answers in the external areas of life, and it gave us things like psychic surgery, rabbits feet, and the evil eye. Dreamcatchers and rain dances, witch hunts and finger burning, praying and wishful thinking. The sort of spirituality you promote gives us magic, and magic does not help us do anything important in reality.

Spirituality can help you look within, but spiritual answers can never be allowed to trump real world data. True spirituality is a way to complement science, not contradict it. The best understanding we have of the world and of ourselves comes from an evidential approach to truth. There is no reason spiritual soul searching has to abandon that approach. There is nothing about spiritualism that justifies embracing magic, it is a misuse of the practice.

You are simply saying, who needs education, we can sit around and trip all day, meditate and have dreams and come out with better knowledge. That is a bastardization of spirituality.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
Yet none of those methods will teach you about reality. You can spend a lifetime meditating, tripping and communing with the paranormal, and learn nothing about how the world works. You wont be able to do simple algebra, know nothing of basic chemistry, learn zero about biology, have no idea what to do when your body falls ill, and be clueless about how to interact with other people. What good are lucid dreams if you need to treat an infected tooth? What is DMT gonna do for you if you want to build a home that wont blow over in the first storm? How is meditating going to save you from an invading army? Spirituality has had a very long time to provide answers in the external areas of life, and it gave us things like psychic surgery, rabbits feet, and the evil eye. Dreamcatchers and rain dances, witch hunts and finger burning, praying and wishful thinking. The sort of spirituality you promote gives us magic, and magic does not help us do anything important in reality.

Spirituality can help you look within, but spiritual answers can never be allowed to trump real world data. True spirituality is a way to complement science, not contradict it. The best understanding we have of the world and of ourselves comes from an evidential approach to truth. There is no reason spiritual soul searching has to abandon that approach. There is nothing about spiritualism that justifies embracing magic, it is a misuse of the practice.

You are simply saying, who needs education, we can sit around and trip all day, meditate and have dreams and come out with better knowledge. That is a bastardization of spirituality.
I didnt say we should abandon all the physical things in this world that benefit our lives, that would be silly. I dont hate science, quite the opposite, I just view it as less important compared to spirit, as do most people in this world. Science is responsible for most of our physical achievements, makes it easier to pilot our flesh vehicles in this illusory world. But if you think those things make reality more enjoyable than the things I mentioned, I'd have to disagree. Thats like the scientific intellectual version of a materialistic airhead who cant stop buying shiny pairs of high heeled shoes. Just my opinion, do what you want with it Heis.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I figured you would dance around these questions and avoid answers that make you uncomfortable.
Chief, you need to understand, there is no answer that would make me uncomfortable. I don't accept the things I believe in based on my own level of comfort.

Do you understand that?


Of course knowing yourself is a process of discerning reality.
It isn't, though. "Knowing yourself" is a process of knowing yourself.

Why obsess with the outside, physical world if you dont even know who you are?

The outside world has nothing to do with who I am. The two are mutually exclusive. I know who I am. I know what I believe, and why. I know what I believe is justified by evidence. I know that which is not justified by evidence lies in the realm of pseudoscience, bunk science, non science. And I know that relying on such things is misrepresenting reality.


A moon landing and a higgs boson is supposed to be more important to you than what goes on in your head/soul? ;)
I know what goes on in my head, I know why it happens, I know exactly how it happens. The unanswered questions lie outside of our physical self and into the unknown of the universe. I guarantee you will not find the answers of the unknown inside some archaic book. If you could, you would, since you can't, you won't.

Everyone is experiencing reality subjectively as a whole. Some people are receptive of amazing parts of reality and some are not. Take Neer for example, an avid watcher of the heavens, as are millions of astronomers with an atheist mindset, yet they are unable to see these amazing things that a lot of other people are seeing like star-like objects flying across the sky and then blasting off into space, and orbs of light that blink in and out of existence (BTW Neer, I have seen the reflections of satellites you talk about, the periodic flashing is not at all what many of us are experiencing when we see these orbs). Video tapes of these things get no attention from the skeptics because they think they are fake, or people are just looking at something natural that they just cant explain, so theres really no convincing those that chose to box themselves in with skepticism.
Of course everyone is experiencing reality subjectively, but that doesn't make reality subjective. Reality is objective, whether you believe it or not. Do you know what objective/subjective means? Objective is true to all of us regardless of our beliefs, subjective is true to you, and only you, as you are the only one who experienced a subjective event. Consider love, you might love someone who I probably don't. Your subjective reality is that you're in love with a person I am not. Who would I be to exclaim you're not truly in love with that person simply because I'm not? Consider day/night, red/blue, terminal/benign.. these are statements of fact. Your subjective opinion does not hold any bearing towards them.

I've seen such objects, and I've reached the same conclusion each time.. "I cannot explain this". How would it be logical or reasonable for me to automatically assume such objects had an alien origin? Why? Simply because I can't explain it? That doesn't make any sense. This is something you refuse to accept. I can't explain how mutations occur, are we to automatically assume "aliens dun it!"? Of course your answer is no because you've never seen a movie or read an article or book based on aliens altering human genetic code, it's not popularized in media.. You must understand, through pop culture and media, you've been conditioned your entire life, subconsciously and inadvertently, to believe these things outside our current understanding of reality are automatically external forces. Want proof? Ask someone what they think a "UFO" is. 9 times out of 10 you'll hear "aliens". Why do you think that is? A "UFO" is nothing more than an unidentified flying object. It could be anything, why do they automatically jump to the conclusion "aliens!"? I urge you to test it out for yourself.


I think getting obsessed with the outside world and what it has to tell you is silly, because you already have the answers, you just gotta dig them up.
We have a fraction of the answers.

You search for objective truth even though you are experiencing reality subjectively from one perspective.
Because objective truth is the only truth. Subjective truth is meaningful or useful only to those who experience it.

Why is the outside reality more important than your OWN reality?
Because the only reality that we can prove matters.

Dreams help you discover yourself, lucid dreams turn you into god and are an offshoot of astral projection (where you can meet other astral travelers and later confirm you both were experiencing the same thing).
All pseudoscience.

Psychedelics turn the dial in your head so that you may be receptive to different vibratory realities.
Drugs inject a new chemical inside your brain that make you think such things, that's all. That's it. I hate to bust your bubble, but that is all that is happening inside your brain when you use drugs. Proof, it would seem, is easy to identify, as without such a chemical, you wouldn't experience such 'profound' thoughts. Brain chemistry, and consequently, human consciousness, is dependent upon certain substances, change the substance, change the thoughts. This is well studied and has long been established as medical and scientific fact. You feel happiness because of dopamine, sadness because of a lack of dopamine as well as beta-blockers, adrenaline because of adrenaline, aggressive because of excess testosterone... the list is endless. The way you feel is directly linked to the chemicals your brain produces.

Profound experiences that defy conventional reality open your eyes to what reality really is, especially if those experiences are consistent like the ones I experience.
Yet you refuse to disclose such experiences out of fear of criticism or acceptance.

Again, your experiences are useless to me, useless to science. You've yet to demonstrate why an experience you felt should be regarded as anything other than a chemical imbalance in your own head or why I should give it any credence.


And you use imagination in every aspect of your life like with art, music, sports, story telling, you can get imaginative with how you chose to urinate, everything! You first have to imagine a sandwich before you make it. You get more joy from imagination than anything, unless you've lost your way, imo.
Imagination cannot discern reality. Yes, it's useful, but not in the application of understanding the unbiased truth about our world.
 

lokie

Well-Known Member
you need to understand, there is no answer that would make me uncomfortable. I don't accept the things I believe in based on my own level of comfort.

admittedly I don't have interest in this type of time wasting tom foolery.

but one question that does pertain is pads statement.

what are your thoughts on a "scorched earth policy"?
 

Mister Sister

Active Member
I am confounded by the amount of people who insist that if something can't be proven physically, it just can't be 'real'. I'm not talking down about these people, please do not take it that way.

Why can't an answer transcend our limited perception? Why does it have to make sense? Why can't an answer be both true AND false? Why is 'science' above all else, instead of equal to all else?

The term 'logical' is not an objective term. It is based on how one views 'logic'. What is logical to one may be illogical to another, and humanity's view of 'logic' has changed since forever and will continue to do so.

Part of my journey was realizing that some things defy the human mind. Things that 'logically' can't be real or 'proven'. Because 'proof' is just as subjective as logic.

All truths are half-truths any way. So no matter what anyone says that is right, it is always and without question equally wrong, depending on the perspective of the participant.
 

lokie

Well-Known Member
OP without trying to be mean, just how many believe the way you do? statistics please.

find them and wait for the next hail bop comet. I do care about you and your right to breathe and
your pursuit your of happiness. comets are beautiful and can take you closer into the true light you so desperately need,

If you did not notice the shake on the door does not say sunshine enemas sold here.

it may be worth your time to hitch a ride with the energizer bunny. he may care about the green solar energy.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Because objective truth is the only truth. Subjective truth is meaningful or useful only to those who experience it.
...but all objective truth serves subjective truth. After the use of objective truth is applied, it affects people - hopefully at a meaningful level (or no economy). That's the only possible response to stimuli.

...do you understand that?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Imagination cannot discern reality. Yes, it's useful, but not in the application of understanding the unbiased truth about our world.
Great post, but I would disagree with the last line. Science wouldn't have gotten far without imagination, creative thinking, and even fantastic thinking. I believe the difference is structure, principals, standards. Without this framework, imagination ends up fueling wishful thinking. Wishful thinking has no place in discerning reality.

It is this framework which chief and the others are resisting, because it filters out their wishes and pretense. It may be that spiritual exploration and discovery requires a different framework, but the chief is essentially pleading for anarchy filtered only by his desires, while seeking the shelter of spirituality. He wants a short path to deep thought, yet wants his pipe dreams to be on the same level as profound thinkers like Eye.

You get more joy from imagination than anything
Psychedelics turn the dial in your head so that you may be receptive to different vibratory realities.
It's fun to trip, it's easy to take a drug. Chemical altering of consciousness can reveal many things, perspectives you would never have gained otherwise, but without guidance, without deep reflection and prior convictions, it is simply escapism. Escapism is alluring and if we can dress it up to appear to have value by saying it gives us special information from different vibratory realities, then we can feel pride and superiority. True spiritual understanding, knowing yourself, requires adversity, hardship, and sacrifice. It takes profound regret, missed opportunity, and bittersweet longing before we can appreciate alternate perspectives; before soul searching can mean anything; before we can begin to overcome. The less time we spend in this reality, the less we know what things are important to us.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Science wouldn't have gotten far without imagination, creative thinking, and even fantastic thinking. I believe the difference is structure, principals, standards. Without this framework, imagination ends up fueling wishful thinking. Wishful thinking has no place in discerning reality.
...I like this. We should all be able to agree on this one ;)
 

lokie

Well-Known Member
...but all objective truth serves subjective truth. After the use of objective truth is applied, it affects people - hopefully at a meaningful level (or no economy). That's the only possible response to stimuli.

...do you understand that?
objective truth is only truth to you. in the end there can be one truth. are you so blind to see?
 
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