How do you become a better person, and why should you?

[Padawanbater2]

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

 

[kpmarine]

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

I can't speak for the great minds that actually provide us with handy things like you have mentioned. However, I can speak from the perspective of a man who enjoys making the world slightly better just for it's own sake.

Because I can, that's why... If you posses the ability to make the world a slightly better place, even if just for a moment, it is your responsibility to do it. The moment I stop doing things because it's the right thing and instead start doing them for the approval I get, is the same moment I lose a bit of myself. I don't know if it is taught or genetic, or both, but the urge to do what is right is not something you can just ignore. If you had the choice to improve the world you live in, or to remain passive; it would be a crime against all that is good to forsake that because you wouldn't get a pat on the back.

Imagine a world, if you can, where all good actions are solely dictated by the recognition they get. That's a scary world, is it not?

 

[Beefbisquit]

Hmmm... this actually touches on some very old, ideas in Philosophy, specifically ethics, and 'being good', or 'being virtuous'.

I tried to label myself as Utilitarian, e.g., perform actions because of the good they bring. It seemed logical that we should do whatever helps the most amount of people, but then one of my Professors asked me, "Then why don't we allow surgeons to pluck people from the streets to perform transplants on? Surely if one persons life can save five, there's more utility and good in that action?"

The answer wasn't very intuitive to me, but was something along the lines of; "I don't think anyone has the right to end anyone else's life... unless they're threatening their life of course."

So, it would seem there is moral good in and of the action itself, not just in the consequences of the action. With that said, if the moral thing to do lies in the action itself, not in the consequences or 'utility' of the action, then take this scenario for example;

It's WWII and you are a member of a German household that is in good regard with the Nazi party. However, you don't agree that Jews should be slaughtered and have decided to let some stay in your attic. When the German Officers come knocking on your door to ask if you've seen any Jewish people do you;

A) Lie, an immoral act (regardless of the consequences remember, it's the act itself that is judged as moral or not, not the consequences even though this act would increase 'utility').

or

B) Tell the truth, telling the truth is generally seen superior when assigning moral judgement. However, the consequences of this action don't favor one of utility, or helping the most amount of people. Doing the action for the act itself is actually detrimental to to more people than no performing the act.


The question of 'why' is endless, you can always ask why. Maybe because humans are pack animals and we seek validation for what we do on some level. Asking why we should be 'better' is kind of strange don't you think? The very definition of 'better' seems to elude to something sought after. To be more than you are now, it's generally considered to be desirable regardless of ethical standpoint, unless of course you're apathetic.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

Pad, interesting questions... extremely relevant.

"The universe has to conscious, no kindness or ill will" -311

There is no bad, there is no good. What is bad and good is all contingent on your personal outlook on life, which is created and formed over every second of your life, based entirely upon the chance that you were born, the environment and culture you were born in, how you were raised, and lastly... the decisions you personally chose to make dependent upon the all of the experiences you have ever been though.

Who are we? Who we are is completely based upon our inherited genetics, what was instilled in us as children before we had the ability reason and think for ourselves. We are everyone we have ever met in our life, what we chose to take from them... and what we chose to leave.

If we want to figure out the parts of who we are that we have control over, we are merely the choices we make... we must make ourselves. It's nice, because the older we get, the more control we have over our thoughts, our passions, our likes and dislikes, and the more power we have over our the choices we decide to make. The older we get, the more life experience we gain, the more in depth our thought processes become when making decisions, and thinking them through.

Why be "good"? Why be "bad"? Why do anything? Because it fuckin feels good man. Why do i strive beyond anything else to be honest with myself? Because it feels fucking GREAT! It feels awesome to me, when i do something for someone else, even a stranger that i know i will never meet again, i don't know them, they could be a horrible person... but ya know what? I'll take time out of my day to help you, because not only does it make me feel good... but what i perceive as being righteous and good, i would hope, would be seen by them, and others as a better influence. A guidance to what i feel is the best way to be, and how i would want others to treat me.

Why do people try to help the world? I would assume that it is because it makes them feel good, they feel like it will make a positive impact on peoples lives, that maybe they will step into their shadow and become (what they perceive as) a good or better person.

It's hard though, knowing there are people out there, millions of them psychopaths, sociopaths, fucked up shit happened to them when they were little, take my older brother for example, now facing 20 to life (and i hope he fucking rots in there) for almost killing an 8 month year old beautiful baby girl. I have personal experience with someone who feels no guilt, who thrives off of taking advantage of other people, and causing pain and suffering. There is no way to help these people, they are past getting treatment and they will be that way for the rest of their (in my opinion) pathetic lives.

Existence is absurd, and we are here for a finite amount of time... and such a short time at that. In my opinion, it's all that we can do to try to be happy, to do our best with what is within our power to help others with life, and to help them to be happy. To try to differentiate between the people who will take advantage of you, or who are genuine and sincere, and fill our lives with people we "love", trust, and care about. Try to be a good influence and a good example on everyone, to be honest with ourselves.

Why do any of these things? Because it makes me feel good, but alas, we are all different animals, with different minds, different likes and dislikes, different passions... different perceptions, to each their own... but you better not fuck with me or anyone i care about, because i WILL fuck you up. In my opinion, it is better to try our best to become better parts of ourselves every single day.

I take the Buddhist belief of reincarnation as a metaphor, to symbolize that every single day we wake up, we are born again... and we choose who we want to be in every moment of every day.

In short, do what makes you feel good... don't let anyone fuck with you or the people you love, stick up for yourself in every situation... we only get this one chance to live, so live it up, and live it "rightly".

 

[cannabineer]

Beefbisquit, that is the first time I have seen lying depicted as an unconditionally immoral act. Can you point me toward supporting theory for that idea? cn

 

[Padawanbater2]

Take this example, would you feel the same feeling it left me with..?

I was on another forum I frequent recently and this guy posted a thread about how his dad had just died and it was at the worst possible time for it to happen as he had no money, couldn't afford the funeral costs, had no other immediate family to help, the whole 9 yards. I teared up while reading the OP. Someone else set up a paypal account for him and the donations started flowing in, some people even donating up to $50. This lasted for a few weeks until someone did some investigating on the guys name and where he lived based off some information the OP left and discovered it was all a big sham. Got called out and eventually admitted it.

I felt like a friend had stabbed me in the back, for someone to take advantage of someone elses compassion and sense of empathy for measly fucking dollars.. The mix of emotions were disturbing.. then you realize this type of shit happens all day, everyday, all the time. You see the exact same thing in government, in society, in so many people that would take advantage of some poor sap whose only mistake is trying to help.

Then, when someone else faces a crisis and needs somebodys help... guess how you feel?


One of the worst though, and I see it all the time, is how these snake oil con men dressed head to toe in white suits and driving brand new Cadillac's to the congregation and asking for 10% of everyones salary... they're taking advantage of ignorant people in need of something, and they think by giving, they'll find it... (millions of people, guys..)

It kind of feels like the good I do, or any of us here do, is offset by so much bad that it doesn't make a difference at all. Like I'm emptying a glass of water drop by drop while standing under a waterfall..

 

[Doer]

Please allow a slightly different perspective.

All Folks are Islands
Good, Better, Best is a slippery and detailed slope into every increasing complexity and confusion
We cannot truly see ourselves
But, life is our only broken mirror
We can grow ourselves regardless
Or we may not

We can only help ourselves
We can only know Self
Bounds and limits are self imposed
We can set self to see Self
We may not see the value

Remember Now and keep it, wholly
It's all we got
It's all we need

 

[cannabineer]

Are those ... lyrics? cn

 

[Beefbisquit]

Beefbisquit, that is the first time I have seen lying depicted as an unconditionally immoral act. Can you point me toward supporting theory for that idea? cn

One example; Kant

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/ap85/papers/LyingAndDeception.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

 

[cannabineer]

Agreed, but that's hardly universal. You implied that the immorality of lying was established at the level of basic social conduct. One 19th-century armchair philosopher does not make for a moral imperative (categorical or otherwise ) cn

 

[Doer]

Please allow a slightly different perspective.

All Folks are Islands
Good, Better, Best is a slippery and detailed slope into every increasing complexity and confusion
We cannot truly see ourselves
But, life is our only broken mirror
We can grow ourselves regardless
Or we may not

We can only help ourselves
We can only know Self
Bounds and limits are self imposed
We can set self to see Self
We may not see the value

Remember Now and keep it, wholly
It's all we got
It's all we need

Lyrics?..no. Just some thoughts on simplicity, instead of worry about comparing ourselves to others.

But, if you a tune idea, feel free.

 

[ArcticGranite]

For me the how and why of better began unfolding with fatherhood, maturity, age, experience. Youth is wasted on the young. Liking oneself and being comfortable being you, authentic, is critically important in the "better" dept. imo. I feel fortunate in that a number of my friends take the high road. I learn from that. I'm catching the "why bother" concern here too. What Viktor Frankl said, strip everything and we still get to choose our attitude! Have a reason to exist. And Nietzsche, with a why to live we can bear any how. I still like seeing a dirtbag get his though.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Agreed, but that's hardly universal. You implied that the immorality of lying was established at the level of basic social conduct. One 19th-century armchair philosopher does not make for a moral imperative (categorical or otherwise ) cn

Typically in society lying is deemed as an immoral act. Perjury is taken very seriously! Of course there are exceptions. Although not just pertaining to lying, one can still argue that the moral choice is still based upon the action not the consequence.

Morality, although at times might seem intuitive, isn't always so.

 

[Doer]

Agreed, but that's hardly universal. You implied that the immorality of lying was established at the level of basic social conduct. One 19th-century armchair philosopher does not make for a moral imperative (categorical or otherwise ) cn

Is lying immoral or only illegal in certain circumstances? Is anyone free from a little lying here and there?

How can anyone say they don't lie to themselves in inner dialog, constantly?

 

[Zaehet Strife]

Take this example, would you feel the same feeling it left me with..?

I was on another forum I frequent recently and this guy posted a thread about how his dad had just died and it was at the worst possible time for it to happen as he had no money, couldn't afford the funeral costs, had no other immediate family to help, the whole 9 yards. I teared up while reading the OP. Someone else set up a paypal account for him and the donations started flowing in, some people even donating up to $50. This lasted for a few weeks until someone did some investigating on the guys name and where he lived based off some information the OP left and discovered it was all a big sham. Got called out and eventually admitted it.

I felt like a friend had stabbed me in the back, for someone to take advantage of someone elses compassion and sense of empathy for measly fucking dollars.. The mix of emotions were disturbing.. then you realize this type of shit happens all day, everyday, all the time. You see the exact same thing in government, in society, in so many people that would take advantage of some poor sap whose only mistake is trying to help.

Then, when someone else faces a crisis and needs somebodys help... guess how you feel?


One of the worst though, and I see it all the time, is how these snake oil con men dressed head to toe in white suits and driving brand new Cadillac's to the congregation and asking for 10% of everyones salary... they're taking advantage of ignorant people in need of something, and they think by giving, they'll find it... (millions of people, guys..)

It kind of feels like the good I do, or any of us here do, is offset by so much bad that it doesn't make a difference at all. Like I'm emptying a glass of water drop by drop while standing under a waterfall..

I don't think it's about making a difference as a whole brotha, i think it's about making a difference to you personally... if it effects others in a positive way, then good! But the reason i do nice things for people, isn't because i want something back from them, or because it's completely for them (well, it being for them is part of the reason) but i do those things because i want to, because it makes me feel good, if them feeling good is a result of it, sweet... regardless, i did it for me...even if it seems like it was for you.

Everything i do is ultimately... for me! Lol, it's that way for everyone... if you really didn't want to do something, like really REALLY didn't want to, you wouldn't. Everything you do is for you, in my opinion.

It's hard trying to decide who you should help, and most importantly why. But we have to be very careful and cautions, because like i said, there are millions out there who are amazingly adept at putting on a good front and a spectacular show, when their real intentions are malevolent. It takes years of practice, and a tight grip on skepticism for other people to be able to pick them out.

I'd find that dude and punch him in the fuckin face btw.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

Is lying immoral or only illegal in certain circumstances? Is anyone free from a little lying here and there?

How can anyone say they don't lie to themselves in inner dialog, constantly?

Lying is all dependent on the situation, and perspective. If i work at a restaurant, and i'm eating food every once in a while, maybe it's even food they are going to throw away anyways, and i know that if my boss catches me im going to get fired... he comes up to me and asks me if ive been eating any food right after i ate a chicken finger... but your fucking bottom dollar im going to look at him straight in the face with puppy dog eyes and say.... whaaa, fuck no i aint been eat'n yo chicken! <-LOL!

Just as long as when you tell that lie... you are consciously aware, and you tell yourself (zaehet, you just lied right there... just want you (me) to consciously become aware of that) it keeps us in check, makes it so we don't ever fall into the habit of believing our own lies like billions of people do. It's good practice.

Is lying bad or good, fuck no, it's neither, it isn't inherent... its based on personal perception and contingent on the situation.

In my opinion.

It is very possible to not ever lie to yourself (albeit a most difficult thing to perfect) , that is what i base the meaning and purpose of my existence on...yet, that doesn't mean i don't ever lie to anyone else, lol! I will if i feel it is something that needs to be done. It's my call, and it's your call too.

Just be very careful to not believe the lies, being honest with oneself... i think, is the most important thing in the existence of the human animals psyche.

 

[tyler.durden]

Honesty is not owed to thieves and murderers, or anyone attempting to commit immoral acts themselves. If a someone wishes to harm you and your family and they inquire to where your children are to do them harm, it is not immoral to lie to protect them. Morality to me is summed up by whatever is done to intentionally benefit individuals is moral, and whatever is done to intentionally harm individuals is immoral. Of course, that's the simple version...

 

[j.GrEeN.<,{'^'},>]

And, what does that even mean? Better person..

I feel like most people don't bother with that type of shit, they get theirs, that's all that matters.

Is striving to become a better person even worth it if everyone else doesn't give a shit?

What does it accomplish? Does it simply give us the knowledge of being able to live with ourselves? Why does that matter?


In a weird sense, sometimes I feel like since other people don't care for me or anyone else, why should I care for them? It seems so prevalent, the harsh reality of existence, where people are always in it for themselves, and being someone who cares for other people or the majority of peoples well being is useless. Why do it? Why bother? Why not just work to make your own life worth living, worth something that makes you wake up every day and not kill yourself?

Why do people even bother with creating things like vaccines or smart cars to eliminate pollution if half the people these things are meant for don't believe they work, and in fact believe they create some type of autism or brain damage or don't believe in global warming? Why care about these fucks? Why care about what they think? Why try to help them? Where's the motivation, the acknowledgement, the "thank you for progressing our world"?

Nowhere. So why fucking bother?

When all seems lost, and the feeling helpless...... self, is healed(whole) by being self-Less.

 

[kpmarine]

Take this example, would you feel the same feeling it left me with..?

I was on another forum I frequent recently and this guy posted a thread about how his dad had just died and it was at the worst possible time for it to happen as he had no money, couldn't afford the funeral costs, had no other immediate family to help, the whole 9 yards. I teared up while reading the OP. Someone else set up a paypal account for him and the donations started flowing in, some people even donating up to $50. This lasted for a few weeks until someone did some investigating on the guys name and where he lived based off some information the OP left and discovered it was all a big sham. Got called out and eventually admitted it.

I felt like a friend had stabbed me in the back, for someone to take advantage of someone elses compassion and sense of empathy for measly fucking dollars.. The mix of emotions were disturbing.. then you realize this type of shit happens all day, everyday, all the time. You see the exact same thing in government, in society, in so many people that would take advantage of some poor sap whose only mistake is trying to help.

Then, when someone else faces a crisis and needs somebodys help... guess how you feel?


One of the worst though, and I see it all the time, is how these snake oil con men dressed head to toe in white suits and driving brand new Cadillac's to the congregation and asking for 10% of everyones salary... they're taking advantage of ignorant people in need of something, and they think by giving, they'll find it... (millions of people, guys..)

It kind of feels like the good I do, or any of us here do, is offset by so much bad that it doesn't make a difference at all. Like I'm emptying a glass of water drop by drop while standing under a waterfall..

As the old saying goes "Trust, but verify.". Some folks are just plain bad. I do see a trend of general apathy from the public, so I get what you mean. The only way to combat that is by being the example. Even if you think what you did went unnoticed, you will know. Normally when I hold a door for someone, it goes unnoticed, but they would have noticed if I let it slam into their face. Besides, you never know if you just made that person a bit more inclined to do someone else a kind turn.

 

[tyler.durden]

As the old saying goes "Trust, but verify.". Some folks are just plain bad. I do see a trend of general apathy from the public, so I get what you mean. The only way to combat that is by being the example. Even if you think what you did went unnoticed, you will know. Normally when I hold a door for someone, it goes unnoticed, but they would have noticed if I let it slam into their face. Besides, you never know if you just made that person a bit more inclined to do someone else a kind turn.

[video=youtube;wMwoexR1evo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMwoexR1evo&amp;feature=player_embedded[/video]