When pseudoscience harms

[Heisenberg]

When skeptics in these forums speak out against faulty beliefs, we often get asked, 'What's the harm?" Why does it matter if someone wants to make a virtue out of faith? What does it hurt if people use psychics to talk to dead loved ones? Why do you feel like the world should pay attention skeptical standards of doubt?

We often answer this question by citing events from history. I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.


Obviously there are some heavy subjects and real tragedies that will be listed, but I'll start off with something lite.

http://www.kplctv.com/story/19275089/letters-regarding-palm-scanning-causes-concern-amongst-moss-bluff-elementary-parents

"I was very, very mad," said parent Mamie Sonnier. "Disappointed."

"Many parents felt that way on Monday after reading a letter sent home with their children from Moss Bluff Elementary School. The letter introduced a new program, the palm vein scanner, to move students through the lunch line at a faster rate. With almost 1,000 students, Principal Charles Caldarera says the system will reduce errors."

Sonnier says she's against the palm vein scanner because of her beliefs.

"As a Christian, I've read the Bible, you know go to church and stuff," said Sonnier. "I know where it's going to end up coming to, the mark of the beast. I'm not going to let my kids have that."


Pseudoscience hinders progress unnecessarily.

 

[lokie]

I do not agree to this type of people herding. I would not want my child scanned that way.

 

[Blue Wizard]

I do not agree to this type of people herding. I would not want my child scanned that way.

They are already being herded through the lunch line, it seems more efficient than the old punch tickets I used to get when I was a little kid and seems to accomplish the same thing.

 

[lokie]

They are already being herded through the lunch line, it seems more efficient than the old punch tickets I used to get when I was a little kid and seems to accomplish the same thing.

In the current method the Ticket is identified as used or not.

The Child is not being scanned to verify if worthy.

 

[ctwalrus]

bahahaha try and stop it.. no use.. overpopulation forces practices like this!

 

[Heisenberg]

In the current method the Ticket is identified as used or not.

The Child is not being scanned to verify if worthy.

Are you suggesting that some children are scanned and then turned away as unworthy?

 

[C3Pgro]

This is a very cold inpersonal method of serving up lunch efficiently, but I guess it cant be sunshine and lollipops all the time. I think hiring more staff could be an alternative to this. Its as if these kids were waking up to go to their job at CIA headquarters and retina scanning in lol. A swipe card could also be an alternative.

 

[Heisenberg]

This is a very cold inpersonal method of serving up lunch efficiently, but I guess it cant be sunshine and lollipops all the time. I think hiring more staff could be an alternative to this. Its as if these kids were waking up to go to their job at CIA headquarters and retina scanning in lol. A swipe card could also be an alternative.

I do think it's curious, but harmless and efficient. There really isn't anything 'warm' about business or economics anyway. To me it's no more impersonal than scanning a CC at burger king. Hiring more staff probably translates into more taxes, which would also make parents mad. I don't think the purpose is to verify identity, but to indicate being present in line. Kids would lose cards, forget pins, ect.

 

[lokie]

Are you suggesting that some children are scanned and then turned away as unworthy?

I am stating the obvious. scanning a human identifies them as an individual and in turn subjects them to scrutiny and treatment
that would be other wise unwarranted.

Scan a kid, identify it and i'll bet you in most cases its parents will be close by.

 

[Rockster]

Human sacrifice to " the gods ", the Dark Ages, The Crusades, the Inquisition, child rape by priests, partition of India, Northern Ireland, 9/11, 7/7 and the other 98% of all terrorist outrages caused by militant Islam, spreading aids in Africa by missionaries, witch burning in Africa due to Evangelism, right wing christians keeping their kids dumb by denying evolution and global warming, suppression of knowledge, Galileo, Copernicus, etc, etc, etc......

I could go on, for hours, but it's so damn depressing writing about man's self made mind forged manacles.

Science flies men to the moon, religion just flies them into buildings.

 

[Heisenberg]

I am stating the obvious. scanning a human identifies them as an individual and in turn subjects them to scrutiny and treatment
that would be other wise unwarranted.

Scan a kid, identify it and i'll bet you in most cases its parents will be close by.

You call it stating the obvious, I call it begging the question. Anonymity was never an option, even with card punching. The card still identifies which account to charge. How does scanning better identify a child than card punching, aside from avoiding fraud and stolen cards?

 

[lokie]

I can write any name on a card, the kids could trade/give/sell the cards.

Scan the kid. now the system could dictate the fat little girl who is failing in math get a different meal/porition
than the rest.

Millions of commuters ride public transportation everyday and few have to scan flesh to ride.

Personal ID is not needed to speed up a cafe line.

 

[olylifter420]

What progress is lost?

She will be the only child not partaking in such a program. Unless one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, then thats fucked up. I do not see how progress is lost if she is the only child not using the system, while other children opt to take part in such a program.

Everyone should have the right to do what they please with their own body, to deny them the right, well we are stepping back in time.

When skeptics in these forums speak out against faulty beliefs, we often get asked, 'What's the harm?" Why does it matter if someone wants to make a virtue out of faith? What does it hurt if people use psychics to talk to dead loved ones? Why do you feel like the world should pay attention skeptical standards of doubt?

We often answer this question by citing events from history. I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.


Obviously there are some heavy subjects and real tragedies that will be listed, but I'll start off with something lite.

http://www.kplctv.com/story/19275089/letters-regarding-palm-scanning-causes-concern-amongst-moss-bluff-elementary-parents

"I was very, very mad," said parent Mamie Sonnier. "Disappointed."

"Many parents felt that way on Monday after reading a letter sent home with their children from Moss Bluff Elementary School. The letter introduced a new program, the palm vein scanner, to move students through the lunch line at a faster rate. With almost 1,000 students, Principal Charles Caldarera says the system will reduce errors."

Sonnier says she's against the palm vein scanner because of her beliefs.

"As a Christian, I've read the Bible, you know go to church and stuff," said Sonnier. "I know where it's going to end up coming to, the mark of the beast. I'm not going to let my kids have that."


Pseudoscience hinders progress unnecessarily.

 

[Heisenberg]

I can write any name on a card, the kids could trade/give/sell the cards.

Scan the kid. now the system could dictate the fat little girl who is failing in math get a different meal/porition
than the rest.

Millions of commuters ride public transportation everyday and few have to scan flesh to ride.

Personal ID is not needed to speed up a cafe line.

You objections seem to be to policy, and not technology. The article stated that some parents were complaining of their accounts being charged when their children did not eat. So the current system was not anonymous. Do you have a problem with any system that reliably identifies the kids, or does the scanning make it different?

What is stopping fat little Susie from already having her meals dictated? Wouldn't the same thing that stops it now, stop it with the scanning system? Are they unable to find Susie's table? No one is saying scanning is needed, just that it's efficient. For sure it not needed to identify a kid and sanction their lunch.

 

[Heisenberg]

What progress is lost?

She will be the only child not partaking in such a program. Unless one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, then thats fucked up. I do not see how progress is lost if she is the only child not using the system, while other children opt to take part in such a program.

Everyone should have the right to do what they please with their own body, to deny them the right, well we are stepping back in time.

Not lost, hindered unnecessarily. I support her right not to partake, but as you said, if enough kids refuse the technology would be abandoned Surely you can imagine more important situations where this sort of reasoning could really lead to tragedy. And I am not knocking her religious ideas, I am knocking her ability to keep them in perspective, to let them effect choices which have nothing to do with religion. I mean, the device does not even leave a mark on the children, it scans their veins like a fingerprint. Her logic is not even consistent with what her beliefs say.

 

[tyler.durden]

Wow, Heis. This thread is getting a slower start than you probably imagined, and you started off with such a light example of magical thinking. Can't wait to read the responses to the heavier issues magical thinking brings about, like the child witches in Haiti, or vaccinations causing autism, or organic vs. conventional food, or Homeopathy...

 

[olylifter420]

I see what you mean and yes, there are fucked up snowball effects everywhere both religious and non religious.

I was simply viewing from the perspective that she would be the only child not using the system and progress would be made.

And i do think homeopathic remedies have their place, so what. Like science backed meds kill plenty, id take my chances going the natural route. However, medical assistance should be seeked if the ailment is life threatening.

Not lost, hindered unnecessarily. I support her right not to partake, but as you said, if enough kids refuse the technology would be abandoned Surely you can imagine more important situations where this sort of reasoning could really lead to tragedy. And I am not knocking her religious ideas, I am knocking her ability to keep them in perspective, to let them effect choices which have nothing to do with religion. I mean, the device does not even leave a mark on the children, it scans their veins like a fingerprint. Her logic is not even consistent with what her beliefs say.

 

[Heisenberg]

I see what you mean and yes, there are fucked up snowball effects everywhere both religious and non religious.

I was simply viewing from the perspective that she would be the only child not using the system and progress would be made.

And i do think homeopathic remedies have their place, so what. Like science backed meds kill plenty, id take my chances going the natural route. However, medical assistance should be seeked if the ailment is life threatening.

I think I see your point. No reason to single this mother out because progress will still happen and it's her choice to be left behind if she wants. I agree, I was simply giving an example of faulty reasoning effecting real life choices.

As for homeopathy, I think you misunderstand what it is. It's not simply going the natural route, which BTW I don't have a problem with. Homeopathy however does two things I wonder if you agree with.

1) It says like cures like. So, if you have a headache, we give you some drug that we know causes headaches. If you feel nauseous, we give you a substance that is known to cause nausea. If you can't sleep, we give you caffeine. I am not making this up or twisting it around. Any homeopathy practitioner will tell you the same.

2) Water has memory. We put the drug we decide to give you into some water, and then dilute that water thousands of times. We dilute it so much that the chance of even one molecule of the drug still being present in the water is astronomical. Homeopaths do not deny that this is so. They admit there is no drug in that water, but they say water has a memory if you mix it a certain way, so the water will act like the drug.

In the end they sell you a pill or vial who's active ingredient is pure water. When we forget that it's water, and test it for results through controlled experiments just in case, they only way we can get any positive results is if we are sloppy. When we are sloppy, we can get the same results from tap water. The more careful we are, the less evidence we see of homeopathy working.

Homeopathy is not herbs or diet or natural substances, it's magic water. Do you still feel homeopathy has it's place?

 

[eye exaggerate]

...nice thread Heis. I have 2 quick questions.

...one of them is, are these people being used as examples displaying real faith? Should we define it for the sake of argument?

...the second question is, what if faith has metaphysical properties we do not know about? For all we know, faith could be fueling the sun, man

edit: here's a really cool take on faith:

"Faith is the direct perception of what is real, it is fundamental wisdom; it is the experience of that which is beyond the body, the affections and the mind. We must distinguish between faith and belief. Beliefs are found stored in the Intermediate Mind. Faith is a characteristic of the Inner Mind. Unfortunately, there is always a general tendency to confuse belief with faith. Although it seems paradoxical, we emphasize the following: “Those who have true faith do not need to believe.” This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience."

*side note - faith and our sexual functioning are tied together "hardcore" (hehe...) It takes willpower to have faith. It takes having a grasp on something else to have willpower.

-anywho, this is just my understanding, at present

 

[Wilksey]

I'd like to dedicate this thread to current real world examples of magical thinking causing harm, disruption, or unnecessary discourse. Let's put some fish in a barrel and grab our guns.

Don't know if this fits into your "magical thinking" category, however, it IS bullshit, and ultimately detrimental to our society.

"Men and women are equal....."

This particular piece of "magical thinking" has lead to millions of dollars of wasted time, money, and resources in a wide variety of public, and private, sector career fields, all in the name of "equality".

Despite the fact that males of our species hold EVERY-SINGLE strength, speed, and endurance record in athletics, this belief in "equality" has lead to inefficient and costly applicant screening processes, and lowered standards in a wide range of fields requiring the strength and endurance inherent in males.

From firefighters, to police, to the military, females must be included in the application and training process, and instead of meeting male standards, are often time given lower standards of their own, all in the name of "equality". What we end up with is an inferior product that costs us the same as the superior product, and at the same time actually endangers the lives of the superior product. All in the name of "equality".

Certainly there has to be some "magical thinking" going on when idiots believe a 5'4" female will garner the same respect, and be able to complete the same physical tasks, as her 6' 180lb male coworker. That never works in the olympics, or in any other athletic endeavor, and we shouldn't pretend it works in other career fields.

"Magic" indeed...