A Tale of The Tape HPA vs 21st Century Flood and Drain

[Fonzarelli]

Well, it sounds like you have the accumulatorless route dialed in well, and I am sure Petflora is interested in combining knowledge with you in that. Here is a link to one of tree farmer's systems that I hope he doesn't mind me reposting: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/trees-and-aero.15936/

Google "ATC 422 flip/flop timer" and it can go down to 1/10 second resolution. Let me know how those compare to your roots as I am curious. He has some lovely roots and cool designs I love looking at, good little read too

Very cool! Thanks for sharing that link. Yes the roots I get look the same. I'm going to take some time to read over that thread. What's with the baskets of hydroton in the photos he posted along with the root porn photos? Is he growing in hydroton or something?

 

[polyarcturus]

dude after reading all that all i can do is stfu. im really considering a redesign for my sytem now and saying fuck the accumulator(the distance from res to sprayers will only be 3ft ft in head) but all this is wishful thinking for me im not as educated as you, but like said, i got a if it isnt broke dont fix it mentality, but you got mad insight my bad for coming at you like that, your knowledge on this shit is up there. +rep for making me look like a fool.

 

[Fonzarelli]

I watched the video TreeFarmer posted on Youtube showing his misters when turned on. It looks like they are pushing quite a bit more water through them than mine. It looks like he's using the traditional NASA type misters that have a triangular piece of plastic over the opening to spread out the spray. Mine do not have that and are the openings are conical shaped. Here is a link to the nozzles I use. I use the white ones at 125 psi. http://www.dripworks.com/product/Q_MN/misters

I'm gonna try to figure out how to upload a video onto Youtube so I can show the mist I'm getting.

 

[Fonzarelli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ka-wKrC-g&feature=youtu.be
Ok guys, here is the youtube link for the misters I'm using. As you can hear, the sound of the mist is louder than the pump. The mister is at the end of a 10 foot 1/4" hdpe tube. One thing I do notice between the mist from this nozzle and the ones that TreeFarmer uses is the velocity of his mist is much faster than mine. These kind of create a cloud that floats around like smoke so I'm not so sure it would be able to penetrate tree sized root systems. This is how the roots look before going into the aero system. I will take a photo in a few days to compare.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing that link. Yes the roots I get look the same. I'm going to take some time to read over that thread. What's with the baskets of hydroton in the photos he posted along with the root porn photos? Is he growing in hydroton or something?

He is growing large trees in aero- he likely needs a good anchor. It's also been discovered that starting the plants off in a little media gives them a little buffer in the beginning while they are geting acclimated to the low volumes of water in the mist. For normal sized plants I've been taught a 3" netpot loosely filled with mini cubes of rockwool works great- just lightly handwater daily till the roots are happy in the mist and then you can let it dry up and it helps seal the chamber, anchor the plants, and keep out light afterwards.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I watched the video TreeFarmer posted on Youtube showing his misters when turned on. It looks like they are pushing quite a bit more water through them than mine. It looks like he's using the traditional NASA type misters that have a triangular piece of plastic over the opening to spread out the spray. Mine do not have that and are the openings are conical shaped. Here is a link to the nozzles I use. I use the white ones at 125 psi. http://www.dripworks.com/product/Q_MN/misters

I'm gonna try to figure out how to upload a video onto Youtube so I can show the mist I'm getting.

I believe he is running the ultra low flow Bio-control nozzles in that video, I also have the same. The piece you mention is called an impingement pin. The design is good because it allows for a larger sized orifice which is less prone to clogging, and the nozzles get excellent coverage compared to other brands.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ka-wKrC-g&feature=youtu.be
Ok guys, here is the youtube link for the misters I'm using. As you can hear, the sound of the mist is louder than the pump. The mister is at the end of a 10 foot 1/4" hdpe tube. One thing I do notice between the mist from this nozzle and the ones that TreeFarmer uses is the velocity of his mist is much faster than mine. These kind of create a cloud that floats around like smoke so I'm not so sure it would be able to penetrate tree sized root systems. This is how the roots look before going into the aero system. I will take a photo in a few days to compare.
View attachment 2227041

Those roots are off to a great start. The nozzle you show is similar in spray to the red cloudtops nozzles alot of people run. The Bio nozzles are $10 for 2, and although are more expensive, I believe it's worth it having tried both myself. Sorry for the threadjack PF- hope this is still ontopic enough for ya...
(I know he's gonna wake up in a couple hours and say "what the heck was going on in my thread without me while I was asleep") LOL

 

[PetFlora]

Its actually the PVC fence post thing (stinkbuddies), so you do not think it would even work?
Thanks for the info though,
I just might convert to setup like yours, again thanks

Have you looked at my root pics? Even in my pseudo- hpa rig the roots are somewhere between volley ball and american football size. How are they supposed to function optimally crammed inside a post. It's like trying to shove 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. That said it's fine for cloning/vegging, but so is my much simpler DIY bubbler

I use Rubbermaid/Starlite storage totes. They're cheap and easy to set up. The one I am currently using is 33 gallons. 2 plants is max.

 

[PetFlora]

FINALLY

This is how I hoped my journal would develop. Perhaps I should have done a thread instead. I guess people's perception of journals is the journalist knows his shit.

Clearly (from my perspective) I need additional help/expertise, but TB and others who sub to his thread use accumulators, so it's hard for them to relate, or offer much advice (although Atomizer has been a big help in journals past). One small tip can make all the difference.

I am using an Aquatec 8800 with pressure fit i/o connectors. I use the shortest runs of hard, but flexible hp tubing. My rez is higher than the pump, minimizing draw down time and pressurizing. My pump is positioned vertically with head on top

Fonz provided a key regarding longer w/d cycles that I failed to figure out on my own. All I knew is the root hairs would come and go, and I was very frustrated. I am still dialing in the longer w/d times: 15 minutes was too long in my pod. Plus, longer w/d cycles further minimize large droplet issues, not that I had one. Also, my mist heads do not push the nutes out like in the TF video, so longer wet cycle will compensate somewhat to wet the deeper roots. So that's why they're dark. Imagine that

Heel Poly Good to see you apologize. Yes there will always be a few noobs asking questions, that make us roll our yes. Hell, I was/am one of them! I find each time I reach a new plateau, I become the noob on the next plateau

TB & Fonz have incites that I lack, and they know how to present them without being condescending. A little tweaking here and there and I might get back on the hpa bandwagon, but damn my 21st Century DIY Flood & Drain results are pretty killer, and a whole lot simpler. But I am a tinkerer, so playing with it expands my mind.

One of things I really like about the longer w/d cycle is I use a lot less nutes. Where I was dumping ~ 1/2 g per day, now it's ~ a pint

 

[Fonzarelli]

He is growing large trees in aero- he likely needs a good anchor. It's also been discovered that starting the plants off in a little media gives them a little buffer in the beginning while they are geting acclimated to the low volumes of water in the mist. For normal sized plants I've been taught a 3" netpot loosely filled with mini cubes of rockwool works great- just lightly handwater daily till the roots are happy in the mist and then you can let it dry up and it helps seal the chamber, anchor the plants, and keep out light afterwards.

I've been told to use 3" net pots before so I bought some to use but haven't tried them yet. I've also not tried the croutons yet, but am anxious to give it a whirl. These are all very good suggestions. I feel at home in this thread and thank you all for sharing. I can't wait to see what the future will bring with the combined power of intelligence here.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Those roots are off to a great start. The nozzle you show is similar in spray to the red cloudtops nozzles alot of people run. The Bio nozzles are $10 for 2, and although are more expensive, I believe it's worth it having tried both myself. Sorry for the threadjack PF- hope this is still ontopic enough for ya...
(I know he's gonna wake up in a couple hours and say "what the heck was going on in my thread without me while I was asleep") LOL

Yeah well I'm sure PF will appreciate all the new info anyway. LOL Ya never know what ideas they may bring. It's early enough that I don't think it's going to hurt any. Oh wait this is a journal not a thread! oops

The nozzles from dripworks are identical to Mr. Cloudtop's nozzles. I've purchased them from both places. The nice thing about Cloudtop's is the half spherical screen he inserts as a filter, because they don't interfere with whatever you install the mister into. The dripworks cylinder type screen sticks out to far and gets in the way not letting you screw it in all the way. I usually purchase the misters from Dripworks and the filter screens from Cloudtops. I haven't tried the bio-controls misters yet because of the price. I also remember calling them to ask a few questions and I don't remember them being very friendly for some reason so I didn't pursue that route any longer. I may have to go back and give those misters a try sometime.

 

[dickkhead]

no its a liquid google groth technologys (they also make bio-bizz(not buzz)) they may have dry forula but ithink it has to be liqued cuz everthing is held in suspension(keeping from breking down) and its got a ph buffer, brings it 6.4 with my tap water probably even better with an unbufferd water.

dont know 20$ for a L an it goes a ways used in moderation.

do you have any pics of plants using this?

you are correct kite high ive come to the same conclusions genetically gender is locked in. but sexual expression is phenotypical as far as ive seen in the MJ plant i believe given the right conditions, any gender plant can express either gender exclusively. also kite high if you havent read the book you should look into it.

PLANT ULTRA GROWTHS ARE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!! i will getting some somewhere now.

what book are you talking about u have a link?

 

[polyarcturus]

yeah in my journal i add a half oz my 5 gal tea every other watering, no pics of when i used it in hydro, and the book is called ELITE GROWERS something or other should be available as a torrent somewhere.

 

[Fonzarelli]

yeah in my journal i add a half oz my 5 gal tea every other watering, no pics of when i used it in hydro, and the book is called ELITE GROWERS something or other should be available as a torrent somewhere.

sounds simple enough! I like the KISS mentality the best. I've always had the best luck with it anyway.

 

[Fonzarelli]

ughh, just swept up a nasty pile of springtails, where do these fuckers keep coming from? i know they don't do damage, but when they get squished they leave this silver paint shit behind.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Do you mean like "silverfish"? Either way I seem to remember hearing they were filthy and carried alot of bacteria or something...

EDIT: oh here they're similar but different: http://www.bugstopshere.com/spring_silver_thrip.pdf
Never heard of em before, maybe they're not where I live, or I just never noticed. Eww it says they can be found "in humans"- in that case it doesn't sound like they "do nothing" to me...

 

[Fonzarelli]

Do you mean like "silverfish"? Either way I seem to remember hearing they were filthy and carried alot of bacteria or something...

EDIT: oh here they're similar but different: http://www.bugstopshere.com/spring_silver_thrip.pdf
Never heard of em before, maybe they're not where I live, or I just never noticed. Eww it says they can be found "in humans"- in that case it doesn't sound like they "do nothing" to me...

Well, I found the source. A new bag of FFOF. I not only had the damn springtails coming out of them, also had some f'ing thrips taking over my bubblegum and a whitefly on the Sour D. I take this shit seriously and let's just say the bubblegum's new home is outside. My Cali O is gone. 2 Sour D's gone. 1 Lavender gone. I took new cuttings on the plants that hadn't been infested yet(or at least hatched) and put all the left over ones that are still in some older FFOF into 12/12 far away from the new cuttings. Fingers crossed. Hate to say it but this has happened before with the same soil. Hopefully they haven't infested my coco coir yet. I know you can eradicate these mother fuckers, but at the rate they are hatching out of the dirt I had to say fuck it. My new aero run has been scrapped. The F&D table that was just starting to take off has been scrapped. Lower your flags guys.

LOL, I don't think they actually meant "in humans." On humans is more like it. They don't survive very easily. Thrips on the other hand are little bitches and I don't take chances with them anymore. I'm saying farewell to dirt from here on out. I'm serious this time!

I will be back in a month to start over from cuttings. Deep breathing time.

 

[PetFlora]

Any time I ever used soil, I had bug issues, pH issues, root rot...

Diatomaceous Earth is tits for killing bugs, yet healthy for plants. Also, you can dust with a billows for critters like spider mites

On to the good news:

I am still dialing in Fonz's w/d cycles. Now at 7 sec/15.5 minutes. Roots have more space between layers (like they are puffing up), with a nice increase in root hairs. The larger of the 2 hpa plants has a bunch of new pistils.

Friday's root pics should be interesting

Two clones from Big Girl are rooting nicely. Thinking to do one more hpa v F & D test with them.

I damn near killed the clone from my hpa. If it doesn't survive I'll have to grab one more to put into my new tent, along with more food herbs.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Any time I ever used soil, I had bug issues, pH issues, root rot...

Diatomaceous Earth is tits for killing bugs, yet healthy for plants. Also, you can dust with a billows for critters like spider mites

On to the good news:

I am still dialing in Fonz's w/d cycles. Now at 7 sec/15.5 minutes. Roots have more space between layers (like they are puffing up), with a nice increase in root hairs. The larger of the 2 hpa plants has a bunch of new pistils.

Friday's root pics should be interesting

Two clones from Big Girl are rooting nicely. Thinking to do one more hpa v F & D test with them.

I damn near killed the clone from my hpa. If it doesn't survive I'll have to grab one more to put into my new tent, along with more food herbs.

Just make sure u wear a dust mask, diatoms are almost as bad for your lungs as asbestos when the dust is inhaled...

 

[Trichy Bastard]

all i can say is variety and a regiment with soil there is no room for "not spraying" i spray every 3 days and every 3rd time is spray the same substance i switch to a different pesticide, bugs are unavoidable with soil grows you have to "become a bug" and learn how to be the pest management, kinda sucks really, i can see why a lot of people get fed up with soil. me i just dropped 50$ on pest control in the last 2 weeks and tossed a bunch oif shit my self and harvest some JUNK.... but oh well got my bug pop under control been using a pressure water extract of neem(organica k+ neem) thats has been kicking ass compared to pure neem and better than the neem extract i have which im sure is the solvent extracted kind.

If you like the feel of soil, you could try an inert soil like promix and just water with nutes... I think this will tend to have mush less issues and you have total control of the nutes like hydro.