• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

My Idea of the Perfect Growing Medium

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
Ok, I figured out that I missquackulated. So Here is the new revised edition of "The Ultimate Growing Medium" This makes 32 U.S. Dry Gallons

Hydro-Organic Growing Medium Recipe


Cocotek Natural Mixed Brick-----------------13.33 Gallons


FoxFarm Big and Chunky Perlite-------------10.66 Gallons


General Organics Ancient Forest Humus----4.8 Gallons


Roots Organic's Big Worm--------------------3.2 Gallons


Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano----------2 oz


Woodburn Sul-Po-Mag------------------------0.4 oz


Shellfish Fertilizer-----------------------------8 oz


Espoma Greensand---------------------------12 oz


Espoma Kelp Meal----------------------------2.4 oz


General Hydroponics Subculture B----------2.5 Tbsp


General Hydroponics Subculture M---------5 Tbsp

Just divide however much medium you need by 32 and then times that number by the numbers above

Example: 100/32= 3.125

3.125x13.33= 41.66 Gallons of Cocotek Natural Mixed Coco Fiber

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/media/cocotek/natural_mixed_brick/
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_soils3.html
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/general_organics/ancient_forest/
http://www.sunleaves.com/detail.asp?sku=SPSG413
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/sul-po-mag-amendment.html
http://www.kmag.com/granular.htm
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/shellfish-fertilizer.html
http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/org_trad_overview.html
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/supplements/subculture/

I'm not sure but I think you would have to leave out the General Organics Ancient Forest Humus to make it completely soil-less. I thought it would help the beneficial Bacteria and mycorrhizae fungi. And you can leave out all the fertilizers if you prefer to provide all nutrients by liquid hydroponic fertilizers (I recommend General Organics). Other wise just use this for the first 2-4 weeks

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/general_organics/bio_marine2/
 
ghettorigger

ghettorigger

Member
I've heard coco and living soil mixes doesn't work. But I cannot confirm this personally. Something to do with how the microbes can break the coco down or something. I love adding humus and i would definetly keep it in the mix, the more diversity the better in my opinion.
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
I've heard that coco is about the only hydroponic medium that will support microbial life. I never heard of it breaking it down. Even if it it did it would probably take longer to break down than your plants will be in the soil.
 
ghettorigger

ghettorigger

Member
Lots of hydroponic mediums support microbial life in one way or another, with synthetic salts added it would be harder for it to get established. I'm doing some digging to try and find the article that i read so i can scan it I think it was something the REV said in a Skunk article, i like to hear what he has to say but sometimes he is a little off. I actually wrote in to skunk about his Humic acid comment in an issue a while back and he is going to feature it in the first issue next year, i guess they have them written up pretty far ahead.
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
Coco works great in a soilless growing medium. I use 70% coco/20% worm-compost and castings/5% peat/5% plant-based amendments in my soilless mix and I'm having great results.

I wouldn't recommend the coco tek bricks though. I use quite a few of GO's products, but this isn't one of them. HydroFarm sells "Coco Planting Mix" for like $9 a bale and it's OMRI, none of GO's stuff is OMRI. And I think the HydroFarm bales are even cheaper. I love the stuff. :hump: And if you're already using coco coir, you could throw in coco chips as well if you want instead of the perlite. Up to you.


The GO Alaskan Forest Humus isn't good in a soilless mix in my opinion, but it's AWESOME in compost teas. I add a 1/2 cup of it to all my teas.

Have you ever checked this stuff out for myco? http://xtreme-gardening.com/mykos/mykos/ It's the best myco product I've ever found, and it's real cheap on ebay.

I don't like seabird guano, too easy to burn the plants, plus seabirds eat garbage and all kinds of nasty stuff...

Green sand is good stuff too, I like Epsoma. It not only helps to way the pots down a little but it slow releases K if you cook the soil first.
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
Your right. They're not OMRI listed. But in my opinion that doesn't mean that they are not 100% organic or quality fiber and Fertilizers. And I chose the Cocotek Mixed Brick because having all three grades of coco fiber in your mix is optimum (Pith, Fiber, Chips). And Cocotek Mixed Brick was the only one that I could found that contained all three. They may not however have the lowest Electric Conductivity. But they do recommend that you Flush it first.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/blog/2011/10/10/rinse-your-coco-coir-soak-out-the-salt/

Or you could get these 2 and mix them at 1 parts

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/image.html?sku=coir-croutons

and 2 parts

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/coco-fiber.html

if you think those are higher quality coco fibers.


And if your worried that the Peruvian Seabird Guano will Burn your plants then use less (1 oz per 32 Gallons). But 2 oz per 32 gallons really isn't very much. Because I calculated it that way.
 
ugmjfarmer

ugmjfarmer

Well-Known Member
GH Ancient Forest is fine screened black sphagnum moss harvested from about 2 companies in alaska or northern canada. They say alaskan humus, but that exactly is what that is. There are far cheaper sources for this, but this is a fine amendment. I'm a little cautious on this soil mix. I kinda like a mixture of peat and coco, and perlite is just taking up space in your containers. Perlite also contains flouride i hear. Why not try some rice hulls? they offer the same drainage properties as perlite, offer another source of organic mass for your soil, give you silicon in your soil as they are almost entirely silicon. They also break down, but this is a good thing because you just add more. Roots cannot grow into perlite, but they can rice hulls. Best part, they are cheap. I got 50lbs/7cu ft for $15.

Your nutrient mix is a little different. This mix will need composting for a month before use. Greensand is good for long term reuse of soil, but will offer little for the short term. If you want shorter term micros, try some azomite. Seems like this mix will have a ton of calcium, and perhaps not enough phosphorus. I'd advise another K source. Since you are not starting with an already pre-built soil base, you might do better using a broader spectrum of amendments. Think Diversity.

Or maybe just go for simple, like some plant tone and flower tone and some fish bone meal.

No lime? No Gypsum?

IMO, the subculture is probably a waste of money once you've got worm castings and the humus in there.
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
Dragon'sHoardSeeds said:
Your right. They're not OMRI listed. But in my opinion that doesn't mean that they are not 100% organic or quality fiber and Fertilizers. And I chose the Cocotek Mixed Brick because having all three grades of coco fiber in your mix is optimum (Pith, Fiber, Chips). And Cocotek Mixed Brick was the only one that I could found that contained all three. They may not however have the lowest Electric Conductivity. But they do recommend that you Flush it first.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/blog/2011/10/10/rinse-your-coco-coir-soak-out-the-salt/

Or you could get these 2 and mix them at 1 parts

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/image.html?sku=coir-croutons

and 2 parts

http://www.planetnatural.com/site/coco-fiber.html

if you think those are higher quality coco fibers.


And if your worried that the Peruvian Seabird Guano will Burn your plants then use less (1 oz per 32 Gallons). But 2 oz per 32 gallons really isn't very much. Because I calculated it that way.
Click to expand...
Oh, I have wholesale accounts for my small gardening business now, so I get OMRI coco by the pallet really cheap, but thanks for the links. That coco palms stuff is nice coco but it's REALLY expensive. The OMRI listing is important to me because of my disability, but the reason I recommended the HydroFarm coco is because I think you would like it better than the coco tek. And you dont have to wash it first.

I like those croutons, if you're using those I don't see any reason why you need perlite. Perlite is an in-organic material anyways and it's not good if it gets on the actual plant. And those croutons look awesome lol, a lot better looking than the planting "chips" I was using from HydroFarm...but their coco planting mix is awesome. And the rice hulls suggestion by ugmjfarmer is a great idea as long as the rice is organic.

And I don't use Peruvian Seabird Guano because even though I guess it's technically organic since it's just bird poop...it's garbage. Seabirds eat garbage...beach garbage lol. So it's not anything I'd want to give back to my plants. Especially when there are a lot of better sources of N and P.

I missed the lime too. I don't use much of it in my mix but I have to use a TBSP per gallon since I use so much coco.
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
This might help explain why some organic products are not OMRI listed.

There is a huge popular debate about the value of "organic" fertilizers and methods. Many people would like to apply "organics" to hydroponics. Currently accepted organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants.

First, what is or is not "organic" is the subject of intense debate. In the United States, there are numerous definitions of "organic", many of which differ significantly. Each state has its own regulations for labeling produce as "organic". Additionally, there are 36 non-governmental organizations, which can "certify" produce as organic. Now only crops grown from unrefined minerals are recognized as "organic". The trouble is unrefined minerals do not dissolve well for hydroponic use and some of these unrefined minerals contain quantities of impurities, some of which are toxic to plants. For that reason, FloraBloom, FloraGro, and FloraMicro are made from high quality refined minerals. This ensures high quality crop production, but prevents the crop from being considered "organic".

In hydroponics we provide the minerals required for plant growth
directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soilorganisms.
The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even
crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what
some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and
practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture
and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the
kinds of materials which are permitted for use under "organic"
regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic
culture.

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/press/OrganicHydroponicArticle.pdf


 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
I guess if you think about it, organics is actually dirty, Unrefined and could contain pathogens or impurities And Synthetic hydroponic fertilizers/mediums is actually more clean and pure.

Now there's something to wrap your head around!
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
ugmjfarmer said:
GH Ancient Forest is fine screened black sphagnum moss harvested from about 2 companies in alaska or northern canada. They say alaskan humus, but that exactly is what that is. There are far cheaper sources for this, but this is a fine amendment. I'm a little cautious on this soil mix. I kinda like a mixture of peat and coco, and perlite is just taking up space in your containers. Perlite also contains flouride i hear. Why not try some rice hulls? they offer the same drainage properties as perlite, offer another source of organic mass for your soil, give you silicon in your soil as they are almost entirely silicon. They also break down, but this is a good thing because you just add more. Roots cannot grow into perlite, but they can rice hulls. Best part, they are cheap. I got 50lbs/7cu ft for $15.

Your nutrient mix is a little different. This mix will need composting for a month before use. Greensand is good for long term reuse of soil, but will offer little for the short term. If you want shorter term micros, try some azomite. Seems like this mix will have a ton of calcium, and perhaps not enough phosphorus. I'd advise another K source. Since you are not starting with an already pre-built soil base, you might do better using a broader spectrum of amendments. Think Diversity.

Or maybe just go for simple, like some plant tone and flower tone and some fish bone meal.

No lime? No Gypsum?

IMO, the subculture is probably a waste of money once you've got worm castings and the humus in there.
Click to expand...
Alright I might check out the rice hulls. But I don't see how you can say that roots won't grow into perlite. I've seen people grow in nothing but perlite before and I don't think it has fluoride in it. And it's not just taking up space. It's increasing aeration and drainage. And I don't see how on Earth it isn't organic when it's mined from the ground. When they say it is inorganic it's because it is all minerals. Here's some info on perlite and the compounds found in it. The calcium Oxide seems to be the most caustic but there isn't very much in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlite#Production_and_uses

Typical analysis of perlite



I have heard that about Greensand before but I seen it in some commercial organic mixes so I figured it couldn't hurt.
Actually I think I'll leave it out. the Kelp Meal contains plenty of Minerals

I added The shellfish fertilizer because I thought there would be no calcium otherwise. But I now realize now
that there is 6-8% calcium in Worm Castings so I might just leave it out.

I chose the Peruvian SeaBird Guano because it has an even amount of Nitrogen and phosphorus and the Sul-po-mag has
the extra potasium I needed and Sulfur and Magnesium to boot. I think your growing medium should have an even amount of
N/P/K and if you need more of one Macro nutrient. Then you can simply supply that through fertigation. Check out this document
I found on Organic soil amendments.

http://www.fifthseasongardening.com/tips/soil_amendments.pdf

I dont' need Garden Gypsum because I already have calcium and sulfur in the mix
and Sul-Po-Mag and Worm Castings are shorter term micros. The Garden Lime is a good Idea. But only if The mix has problems with acidity.
Which I'm not sure whether or not it will. And I think the Subculture will actually provide a more diverse microbiology. I'm digging the
Azomite though. I think I'll try it. I think these ingredients will be enough because they cover the main nutrients. and the more stuff you add the more complicated it gets and harder to figure how much of what nutrient\mineral you are getting. I figure the less materials it takes to meat all of the nutrient requirements the better.

I actually Appreciate your Constructive criticism. It helped me design a better Recipe. Thanks
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
General Hydroponic's organic line is awesome. I use their Bio Root and CaMg+ even though they aren't OMRI because they're good products and I don't feel that they harm the bio in my soil. I don't agree with their statement about organics not being able to achieve the same results as hydro though, it's just a lot easier to do it with hydro. Growing 100% organic is a little more like a puzzle than growing hydro, but once you start to see patterns you can make a system and continually improve on that system. I think there are probably people getting the same yields as you can get with hydro, just not many yet.
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
+ WitchDoctor + said:
General Hydroponic's organic line is awesome. I use their Bio Root and CaMg+ even though they aren't OMRI because they're good products and I don't feel that they harm the bio in my soil. I don't agree with their statement about organics not being able to achieve the same results as hydro though, it's just a lot easier to do it with hydro. Growing 100% organic is a little more like a puzzle than growing hydro, but once you start to see patterns you can make a system and continually improve on that system. I think there are probably people getting the same yields as you can get with hydro, just not many yet.
Click to expand...
I agree. The only reason I chose organic over Synthetic is the better flavor and increased terpins. But I think if you used this

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/supplements/floralicious/

in conjunction with this

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/nutrients/flora_series/

you'd get really good flavor and easy to use, Measure and control (EC/ph) Fertilizers.
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
Oh, I had missed your post above as well, sorry. Thanks for that link about the amendments, I book marked it. I've moved past guanos and bone and blood though. I get most of my npk from compost.

About the perlite, don't forget that lots of things are mined from the ground i.e. gasoline, crude oil, etc. and we wouldn't want to put any of those things in our plants. That being said, obviously perlite doesn't seem to have any noticeable or testable effect on the soil. Asbestos can apparently be in the perlite, although it's supposed to be rare. Either way the dust from it is bad for our lungs and can cause silicosis, and it's not safe to consume (accidentally of course).

But to each his own. I just figure if you've got those croutons they'd work in the same way either way. Up to you. If you like it you should keep using it.

I like greensand because it ways my pots down a little and slow releases K when I cook the soil and reuse my soil.

And thanks for taking the criticism constructively. Some people forget that's why we're hear is to give and receive advice, to help us grow better and learn faster. :bigjoint:
 
ghettorigger

ghettorigger

Member
When using synthetics a 50 50 perlite vermiculite mix is what i use. Using synthetics with soil is like wiping ur as with klenex instead of toilet paper
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
Coconut Fiber
Coconut fiber is the husk of coconuts. It expands to about 7 times its size
(from the compressed brick). We recommend expanding the coco, then
rinsing it thoroughly. Some companies claim that their coco has no salts.
We have not found this to be true. Coconut is a great addition to soil for
aeration and also to “stretch” the amount of soil in a bag. We have also
used it successfully with perlite (10-20% coco, 80-90% perlite) for orchids.
Also, mixed at 30% coco, 70% hydroton, it is great for top drip and flood
and drain tables in hydroponics. We have also used coco for seed germination,
mixed with 1/10 wormcastings for nutrient. Recently, we have begun
to use the coco mixed with perlite (1-2 gal perlite for 4 gal coco) with great
success as an all-purpose soiless media.
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
Hydro-Organic Growing Medium Recipe

Cocotek Natural Mixed Brick---------------16 Gallons

FoxFarm Big and Chunky Perlite------------8 Gallons

General Organics Ancient Forest Humus----4.8 Gallons

Roots Organic's Big Worm----------------- 3.2 Gallons

Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano---------2.0 oz

Woodburn Sul-Po-Mag--------------------0.8 oz

Espoma Kelp Meal-------------------------2.4 oz

Solu-cal Enhanced Calcitic Lime------------0.5 oz-1.0 oz depending on acidity of mix

Azomite----------------------------------2 Cups

General Hydroponics Subculture B----------2.5 Tbsp

General Hydroponics Subculture M---------5 Tbsp

Just divide however much medium you need by 32 and then times that number by the numbers above

Example: 100/32= 3.125

3.125x16= 50 Gallons of Cocotek Natural Mixed Coco Fiber

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/i...l_mixed_brick/
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_soils3.html
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/i...ncient_forest/
http://www.sunleaves.com/detail.asp?sku=SPSG413
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/su...amendment.html
http://www.kmag.com/granular.htm
http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/org_trad_overview.html
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/i...ts/subculture/
http://www.azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=28
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/azomite.html

I'm not sure but I think you would have to leave out the General Organics Ancient Forest Humus to make it completely soil-less. I thought it would help the beneficial Bacteria and mycorrhizae fungi. And you can leave out all the fertilizers if you prefer to provide all nutrients by liquid hydroponic fertilizers (I recommend General Organics). Other wise just use this for the first 2-4 weeks


http://generalhydroponics.com/site/i...s/bio_marine2/
 
Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Dragon'sHoardSeeds

Active Member
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