True HP Aero For 2011

[Trichy Bastard]

I feel your pain. Mine aren't looking great either. This past week I was at 1000 ppm at 3/4 strength GH. I upped it today to full strength 1200 ppm. I abandoned the formula from Atomizer and am using the formula printed on the lable, at the bottom of the lable for flowering. The roots look great, but the plants are not growing very much. Very little change. Maybe two inches in two weeks. My times are at 1sec/6min. The roots stay a little moist before the next cycle hits. I changed my mister nozzles out today for fresh ones of the same .016 bio, I found a couple not spraying correctly. I have ordered some of the Cloudtop Red nozzles, if they don't get to doing better I may put those in when they arive. I haven't noticed any tip burn, but some of the leaves turned yellow early on and still haven't fully recovered from that. So that in itself is telling me to keep increasing the ppm level. Ph is set to around 5.8 - 6.0, temps like yours are around 80 to 85 during lights on. Running all three parts GH plus silica and 6 drops of bleach/gal. The only thing I know to do past this is to start adding additives.

My first instinct is that you may be going to heavy on the nutes. But perhaps you know best by knowing what you've tried. Make sure your ph/tds meter is calibrated and giving true results. Your chamber temps are borderline too high, best results are probably 65-70 degrees, although your temps are not completely unacceptable- just not optimal. Perhaps your nute blend is off- are you using r.o water, and blending the 3 parts according to the bottle recommendations if not using Atomizer/ tree farmers advice? Also, remember that the silica is probably bound with something like potassium, so the combo might be overdoing a certain element.

Everybody's system and strain is a little different, so we all have to use guidelines and common sense. But I think tree farmer says he has never gone over 900 ppm (not sure which scale however). The thing is though, that he has true aero roots, which are more efficient. If your mist cycle is longer, wetter roots, then you'll need to use more traditional nute strengths. Even so, I have never used the full bottle strength of any product, they all seem too hot. Based on Atomizer's advice, I started using about 250 ppm (.7 scale) and went up from there as I rooted clones. They never turned yellow or looked deficient. The cool thing about aero is plants respond fast- so you can adjust the solution, and in a few hours have a visual confirmation if you are going in the right direction or not.

 

[PetFlora]

KM 1000 is ~ 500 too much, and now you're uping it? Since your roots seem OK, but your plants aren't, try cutting it back <500 for 5 days and see what happens. The fewer the leafs the lower the ppm. Even at full bloom I would not go greater than 800.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

KM 1000 is ~ 500 too much, and now you're uping it? Since your roots seem OK, but your plants aren't, try cutting it back <500 for 5 days and see what happens. The fewer the leafs the lower the ppm. Even at full bloom I would not go greater than 800.

Yeah... and while undernuting will slow the plants down, overnuting will kill them. It's much easier to recover from not enough nutes than it is too much nutes. There is a small chance that your system needs higher levels, but like I said, my intuition says you're running too hot, or too much of a certain element in relation to another.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

So, I made a fog cloner/veg unit today. I don't expect much after the cloning aspect, but it's worth a try. I put the 3 teflon coated disc transducer in a float in a 5 gallon Lowe's bucket with a couple feet of swimming pool vac hose leading to a remote chamber with netpots. There is a pc fan on top of the bucket to push the fog along through the hose. This way they heat from the fogger doesn't affect the roots so much, and keeps them dry except for the fog. After a few hours of test run, there is a couple inches of condensed water in the remote chamber, so I know plenty of fog is rolling out. This brings me to a question. I know the correct micron mist size is important, but ultimately it must be because how it saturates the roots. If I get enough fog to make inches of water in a few hours, then is it fair to assume the 5 micron drops could coalesce on the roots and form larger droplets closer to the optimal aero range? Perhaps if I incorporate a cycle timer, I can get the right amount of wetness to the roots and actually make ultrasonic aero work. I only want it to work for a few weeks of veg, so I can do it indoors with longer light hours, but hope that the roots will be close to the HP rootstructure for easy transition into my HPA rig for flower. I'll try to put up some pics of the design soon. One of the things I like about it is that it's is somewhat self-limiting in how it mists. For example- when the rockwool in the netpots is dry, it allows alot of fog-flow through which eventually wets the rockwool, which in turn seals it up and decreases the flow of fog into the chamber. So perhaps this will help the mist volume be somewhat self-regulating.
Would love to hear everyone's comments on this one, especially anyone familiar with ultrasonic foggers. I hear they can work great for cloning, but somewhere along the way they cannot support a big plant. But would it work good at least for a few weeks veg like I am hoping for? Where is the cutoff where it stops working well?

 

[kmbud]

KM 1000 is ~ 500 too much, and now you're uping it? Since your roots seem OK, but your plants aren't, try cutting it back <500 for 5 days and see what happens. The fewer the leafs the lower the ppm. Even at full bloom I would not go greater than 800.

The roots have been ok the whole time. I started at about 1/4 strength or 645 ppm and kept it there till the roots became nice and bushy. But even at that setting they started yellowing some. But the main thing is that they weren't doing much growing. So I have been upping the mixture each week in an attempt to get the plants growing more. I will keep this mixture this week to see what happens. Maybe next week I will try at 500 ppm.

 

[PetFlora]

Consider this: The roots can only consume so many nutes at any one feeding, especially using our super efficiency method of delivery. Giving them a higher concentration than what they can assimilate per feed cycle, and where is the rest go? The rest sticks to the roots, and builds up over time. Better a little less than a little more. Personally, I would flush for ~ half a day, then come back in with <500ppm.

 

[kmbud]

My first instinct is that you may be going to heavy on the nutes. But perhaps you know best by knowing what you've tried. Make sure your ph/tds meter is calibrated and giving true results. Your chamber temps are borderline too high, best results are probably 65-70 degrees, although your temps are not completely unacceptable- just not optimal. Perhaps your nute blend is off- are you using r.o water, and blending the 3 parts according to the bottle recommendations if not using Atomizer/ tree farmers advice? Also, remember that the silica is probably bound with something like potassium, so the combo might be overdoing a certain element.

Everybody's system and strain is a little different, so we all have to use guidelines and common sense. But I think tree farmer says he has never gone over 900 ppm (not sure which scale however). The thing is though, that he has true aero roots, which are more efficient. If your mist cycle is longer, wetter roots, then you'll need to use more traditional nute strengths. Even so, I have never used the full bottle strength of any product, they all seem too hot. Based on Atomizer's advice, I started using about 250 ppm (.7 scale) and went up from there as I rooted clones. They never turned yellow or looked deficient. The cool thing about aero is plants respond fast- so you can adjust the solution, and in a few hours have a visual confirmation if you are going in the right direction or not.

The temps stated were room temp. The chamber is well insulated and gets nowhere near that temp. Anytime I look inside it is cool in there. My meter was calibrated last night and off very little. I calibrated last a couple of weeks ago maybe three. I checked my solution before and after calibration last night and it was off very little. I have checked root wetness just before the next cycle is to occur and see a very few drops of solution clinging to the bottom of the root hairs. I carefully feel of the roots with the back of my hand and they mostly feel sort of dry. I am afraid to let them to become completly dry.

 

[PetFlora]

TB If it was just water, OK, but your plants can't survive on water alone. Nute formulas consist of various particle sizes, most are too heavy to fog. Those will stay behind in the water, leaving you with limited nutes to feed your clones. Fog Sucks.

 

[DIYer]

Well, like I said, the coverage and throw are better. The bios throw out a spray nearly a foot farther than the cloud tops, and the pattern is also wider too. This helps you get the coverage you need to all the roots, while also not overmisting which kills off the root hairs.

I gotta say it again,.. theres no way you're getting away with less then 2 misters in a 5 gallon bucket, and you'd need 2 pretty shitty misters to NOT get great coverage in a little ass 5 gallon bucket.

I spray from the top down, as do most in there right mind to not fight gravity,.. means absolutely nothing that a mister can spray a foot further, gravity will do that for me.

 

[dickkhead]

I feel your pain. Mine aren't looking great either. This past week I was at 1000 ppm at 3/4 strength GH. I upped it today to full strength 1200 ppm. I abandoned the formula from Atomizer and am using the formula printed on the lable, at the bottom of the lable for flowering. The roots look great, but the plants are not growing very much. Very little change. Maybe two inches in two weeks. My times are at 1sec/6min. The roots stay a little moist before the next cycle hits. I changed my mister nozzles out today for fresh ones of the same .016 bio, I found a couple not spraying correctly. I have ordered some of the Cloudtop Red nozzles, if they don't get to doing better I may put those in when they arive. I haven't noticed any tip burn, but some of the leaves turned yellow early on and still haven't fully recovered from that. So that in itself is telling me to keep increasing the ppm level. Ph is set to around 5.8 - 6.0, temps like yours are around 80 to 85 during lights on. Running all three parts GH plus silica and 6 drops of bleach/gal. The only thing I know to do past this is to start adding additives.

I use technaflora bc nutes they were thriving using them. then i tried tapp water and added liquid hummus and things got funky! back on track now though

I little high! Dude, that ph will kill them eventually and cause lockouts. your target is 5.8 give or take a .1 or .2... Take a look at a nutrient ph availability chart- the window is very small where all the nutrients are available at a given ph. Don't fall into the trap of a bunch of bottles of crap. Having the right ppm, and PH will do you far better. Get a good nutrient like Canna, or dynagro (works awesome as an easy to use brand for hydro, but no idea in aero yet), and don't need a single other thing except perhaps some silica and with dynagro I like adding magpro since I use r.o. water. If you're growing aero, it's alot better imo to not try going organic, which means you don't need humic/fulvic. Just get a complete nute and call it done. All the marketing junk of these companies is misleading, you do not need a bunch of bottles to get any better results, if anything they hinder your ability to grow good cuz it't too complicated.

yea i cal my pen and am in that range now! Im getting ready to ditch this and go with a soiless mix its getting frustrated that there not filling my tent out like the soiless mixes i have going. maybe once i get a mini split going in there and get the room down to 75 it will help. for now no more tap water and basic nutes. its like bodybuidling keep it simple and dont throw these other factors in that realy just over complicate things and give little to no results!!

 

[dickkhead]

" keep it simple stupid"

- an old boss

 

[kmbud]

I use technaflora bc nutes they were thriving using them. then i tried tapp water and added liquid hummus and things got funky! back on track now though
QUOTE]

I am using tap water. Don't know if it has a bad effect. What ppm are you with Technaflora?

 

[PetFlora]

Organic nutes is a scourge to hpa. As dickhead said above, KISS + hpa is the ticket. Don't make it harder than it has to be.

Hang in there guys. Look at the shit I went through last grow, and the mist head issue covered all 4 previous grows. I hedged my bet with an on the fly F & D, but I kept the hpa going, slowly uncovering the issues. The two seedlings are doing just fine so far. That, by itself, is uber encouraging. Hell, the first one I took a pic of has already doubled in size, and it's under bloom bulbs and 12/12

 

[PetFlora]

Tap Water has too many unknowns. We do know it has X calcium. Combine that with a nute that has Ca, and you will soon get lock out.

 

[dickkhead]

I use technaflora bc nutes they were thriving using them. then i tried tapp water and added liquid hummus and things got funky! back on track now though
QUOTE]

I am using tap water. Don't know if it has a bad effect. What ppm are you with Technaflora?

according to the kid from supremehydro ( who is horrible at answering emails and the customer support sucks!) says tap water is fine if you started in it more then likely your ok to keep using it. I believe i read you use bleach if your using tap its already in their so be careful with that! it will discpitate after 48 hours so maybe wait to add it! I was at 1000 but just lowered to 850 . i also supp with sensi cal mag. and use pro-tekt silika from dyna grow it rasise your ph so i use technaflora ph down to stablize around 5.8. I hope these things realy start taking off!

 

[kmbud]

according to the kid from supremehydro ( who is horrible at answering emails and the customer support sucks!) says tap water is fine if you started in it more then likely your ok to keep using it. I believe i read you use bleach if your using tap its already in their so be careful with that! it will discpitate after 48 hours so maybe wait to add it! I was at 1000 but just lowered to 850 . i also supp with sensi cal mag. and use pro-tekt silika from dyna grow it rasise your ph so i use technaflora ph down to stablize around 5.8. I hope these things realy start taking off!

I'm out in the sticks with well water so no issue with clorine in the water. I have a ro system but I need a booster pump to make enough water for me to use. I plan on buying another Aquatec 8800 to be used as a backup if needed, but not there yet.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Consider this: The roots can only consume so many nutes at any one feeding, especially using our super efficiency method of delivery. Giving them a higher concentration than what they can assimilate per feed cycle, and where is the rest go? The rest sticks to the roots, and builds up over time. Better a little less than a little more. Personally, I would flush for ~ half a day, then come back in with <500ppm.

I do believe there is some merit to this. It wouldn't hurt to spray off your roots with fresh water, and try at a lower ppm. In aero there is so little water at the roots, i can see how salts might build up. The caveat however, is the penalty for spraying off your roots is you will likely temporarily lose any fuzz if you have it. But it only takes a couple days to come back under good conditions. If you are running too strong, the roots will not be able to correctly take in the nutes, because of how osmotic pressure and salts work. Although you would usually see signs of burning in the leaves. I have experienced for myself, slow growth due to the nutes not being dialed in right, but it wasn't that the solution was too weak, it was either out of elemental balance, ph was off, or it was too warm in the chamber.
If you have too much of one element, it can stop the absorbtion of another.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

TB If it was just water, OK, but your plants can't survive on water alone. Nute formulas consist of various particle sizes, most are too heavy to fog. Those will stay behind in the water, leaving you with limited nutes to feed your clones. Fog Sucks.

That's not true, I have experimented with capturing the fog condensate in a jar, and it had the same ppm and ph that it did before fogging. I read that over long distances, some elements tend to fall out quicker than others, but don't know if this is even true, nonetheless, my run is short, and the fan stirring up the air should help. The real problem with fog seems to be either heat, people overnuting, and the micron size being way too small. The first 2 I can make sure to fix, the last one is what I was questioning.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I gotta say it again,.. theres no way you're getting away with less then 2 misters in a 5 gallon bucket, and you'd need 2 pretty shitty misters to NOT get great coverage in a little ass 5 gallon bucket.

I spray from the top down, as do most in there right mind to not fight gravity,.. means absolutely nothing that a mister can spray a foot further, gravity will do that for me.

That is true, my misters are sidewall firing, so for me it makes a difference. You'll have a hard time in any 5 gallon bucket to not overmist with any type of nozzle. You'd have to mist for shorter burts than are mechanically feasible. You need 2 misters in a bucket, true. But the chamber volume is so small those 2 misters are overkill in terms of spray volume. That's why larger chambers are better to work with. In your case, I would think the cloud tops are a batter choice, since they spray a finer mist at a shorter distance. The bios would just paint the walls

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I use technaflora bc nutes they were thriving using them. then i tried tapp water and added liquid hummus and things got funky! back on track now though
QUOTE]

I am using tap water. Don't know if it has a bad effect. What ppm are you with Technaflora?

Tapwater can be fine, or tapwater can be bad, depends on your tapwater where you live. Even at the same house, ppm and composition can change over a couple hundred ppm from month to month, so it's nice to use pure water, and know exactly what you are putting in it. Most of the ppm of tapwater is calcium and magnesium, so it can really change your nute profile, and has to be accounted for when mixing nutes.