Changes the Way you Think about Drainage

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
"There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8 inch).. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain."

Why would you want to get rid of this? Sounds to me like additional water that will allow my plant to go longer between waterings. A healthy root system SHOULD provide all the wick you need, and if you aren't overwatering your plant in the first place this will help you, especially if growing large plants in small containers.

And aren't we really just talking about water retention and saturation here...but calling it a Perched Water Table?





Then why are you here. Clearly you are too advanced for this site.
Excellent....
 

delta9nxs

Active Member
Perched water table is only relevant to excessively capillary media, media lacking sufficient aeration, or very young plants with little root mass.

Otherwise, it's rather irrelevant. It's just more water for an established plant to take up, and it's not preventing any gas exchanges.
hi, afka! "Perched water table is only relevant to excessively capillary media," such as coco, perlite, rockwool, peat, pine bark, turface, de, small lava rock, sand, gravel, rice hulls or hydroton. using any of these media the pwt will be relevant. i suppose there are some media choices where it may not be relevant, but for most commonly used media it is.

containers are not the open soil column and create an artificial set of conditions for the plant to cope with. one of these is the pwt.

most gardeners are forced to use the above mentioned media in various combinations because they, in addition to decent air porosity, must have decent water retention.

media that has pore spaces too large to support a pwt will have extremely low water retention, requiring more frequent watering events.

a pwt or saturated layer does indeed present a barrier to gas flow while it exists. not to molecular flow, but to gas flow.

again, the elimination of the pwt from the root chamber is but one of the design elements of the ppk.

traditional gardening using containers and the media listed above works good if you are an experienced gardener and know when to water. most of these new growers have never grown a plant before and all over the internet forums you see posts from folks having plant problems of all sorts.

this device instantly turns these people into successful growers of there own medicine.

let's go back to the basic scenario where the gardener waters the plant by hand. how is this decision made? most use the "lift the pot, you'll get a feel for it" method. when it feels light water it.

what happens during this process? immediately after watering there is formed a pwt. this represents a raising of the water level typically between 1-2" in most media.

since the last watering "air" type roots have grown down into the area. research has shown that this can occur in as little as 12 hours. these root structures are not designed to sit in standing water as are the "water" roots. so they begin to drown. the only reason they don't drown completely is that the gardener doesn't water too often. you guys all know that smell of rotten eggs. that's evidence of drowning and dying root material. this takes experience to manage. new people are usually not very good at it and suffer the consequences.

here is a little basic math for you. a 5 gal bucket is approx 10.5" in diameter. the typical pwt using most media will average around 1.5". 3.1416 x r2 x (depth in inches) 1.5 = 129.88 / 231 (cubic inches in a gal) = .562 gal. so about a half gal with most conventional media.

now take a 1.5" id tube. same math gets you .011 gal. from al's statement and many research papers we know that the pwt will exist at the same height in any size or shape container regardless of volume. this is due to the media characteristics, not anything to do with the container. this is why traditional plant containers are all taller than they are wide. this is a design effort to reduce the pwt. also tapered pots help.

by using the 1.5" tube passing through an air gap sufficiently sized to contain the pwt we are reducing the volume of the pwt to only 2% of what it would be if we did not. this frees pot space for "air" type roots and prevents "stalls". the effect on the plant is dramatic.

the idea of controlling and reducing the pwt has been around for a long time. patents and applications are full of attempts to do just this so it has long been recognized as a problem inherent in container growing.

ok, enough of the pwt and minimizing it. lets look at the other side of the problem. the plant. the "dry your pot down between watering events" evolved to deal with the pwt in containers. if you are fertigating you are constantly running salts through the medium. when you allow the medium to dry you are concentrating salts. this causes buildup. this is another commonly recognized phenomena as evidenced by the use of products like dripclean. watering to a certain amount of run off is another way to control it.

but there is another, more insidious side to this. a side that limits plant growth. that is because plants can't take up nutrients without the presence of water. they also can't assimilate nutrients that are in excessive concentrations.

so why not build a device that eliminates the pwt from the root chamber, thereby eliminating the need to reduce watering to keep from drowning the plant yet at the same time allowing you to provide water and nutrients with mass availability, accelerating growth?

while we are at it let's add a reservoir under the plant so that the plant is "fooled" into behaving as if the container is much larger by providing a hydraulic pathway all the way through it.


there is much more to all this, of course, and i'm sure you are all great gardeners and grow beautiful plants.

but you will grow larger, higher yielding plants if you deal with these issues.

well, that's all for now. i'm tired.

d9
 

delta9nxs

Active Member
Excellent....
hi, uncle ben! jerry garcia is right about the terms being interchangable, most container growing professionals and soil scientists know this. but the graphic is out of place in this discussion because it depicts the open soil column. we are not talking about the open soil column, we are talking about growing indoors in containers.

later
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
hi, uncle ben! jerry garcia is right about the terms being interchangable, most container growing professionals and soil scientists know this. but the graphic is out of place in this discussion because it depicts the open soil column. we are not talking about the open soil column, we are talking about growing indoors in containers.

later
Good point. The diagram depicts typical farm land, in fact it would be a perfect description of what I have on my farm. I use a subsoiler to fracture the soil.

Jerry made some excellent points. In a container, the PWT disappears with good root growth. Foliage working with roots are a powerful wick but one must first develop that mechanism.......and as you've seen in cannabis forums some never get there

PWT has never been an issue for me as my plants' roots quickly fill the entire medium. If you use some kind of root tip pruning device, it can be pretty dramatic. For example, I guarantee you that by week 2 (week 3 at the latest) I had a pretty robust root system with roots filling most if not all of the pots shown here --> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html Perfect example is the extreme pot bound nature of the one popped out of the untreated pot at week 4.

Take note of the mass and healthy nature of the rootball and the foliage of the destroyed male. That is how you grow good pot fast, by focusing ONLY on the production and maintenance of the root system and foliage. Even at harvest, the plant shown at the end of that journal had retained most of its fan leaves. I'd have to guess that 80% of pot gardeners do the opposite - focus on bud production and use bloom foods resulting in greatly reduced potential yields.

Live and learn,
UB
 
My theory is this (and when I say theory I mean complete high thought):

I want to get to a point where I am flowering in a 10 gallon pot and want my soiless Promix to dry out every day. In my research it seems like soiless growing is nothing more than a hydro/soil combo...all the consistency of hydro without the hassle and problems. Any which way, as long as I'm monitoring and keeping Ppm/ec runoff readings and keeping them at proper levels, what the heck, the more waterings/feedings the better...right?

So, my thinking is this...I have an oxygen machine sitting around and thought if I fine tune its output to achieve at least one watering a day, wouldn't that help promote maximum root health? Seems like hydro wets and dries roots more than 20 times a day sometimes, so why wouldn't 1-2 waterings/feedings a day be beneficial? Is there any reason other than cost of nutrients and availability of the necessary equipment not to do this, or a flaw in my theory (perhaps kill off microorganisms I need to make nutrients available)? Not sure either on how soil moisture affects nutrient uptake? Do more waterings mean nutrients will be available to the plant quicker or slower and to what extent? Anybody have solid input on that? I think that's my biggest question before I get set back up here in a month...

Plan on going 4-plant vertical scrog around 1000 watt MH, then HPS for flower. Temp controller, co2 bucket, entire Advanced Nutrient line (new formulas), ph water pen, ppm pen, ec pen, soil ph meter...if this helps.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
My theory is this (and when I say theory I mean complete high thought):

I want to get to a point where I am flowering in a 10 gallon pot and want my soiless Promix to dry out every day. In my research it seems like soiless growing is nothing more than a hydro/soil combo...all the consistency of hydro without the hassle and problems. Any which way, as long as I'm monitoring and keeping Ppm/ec runoff readings and keeping them at proper levels, what the heck, the more waterings/feedings the better...right?

So, my thinking is this...I have an oxygen machine sitting around and thought if I fine tune its output to achieve at least one watering a day, wouldn't that help promote maximum root health? Seems like hydro wets and dries roots more than 20 times a day sometimes, so why wouldn't 1-2 waterings/feedings a day be beneficial? Is there any reason other than cost of nutrients and availability of the necessary equipment not to do this, or a flaw in my theory (perhaps kill off microorganisms I need to make nutrients available)? Not sure either on how soil moisture affects nutrient uptake? Do more waterings mean nutrients will be available to the plant quicker or slower and to what extent? Anybody have solid input on that? I think that's my biggest question before I get set back up here in a month...

Plan on going 4-plant vertical scrog around 1000 watt MH, then HPS for flower. Temp controller, co2 bucket, entire Advanced Nutrient line (new formulas), ph water pen, ppm pen, ec pen, soil ph meter...if this helps.
Put down the bong, give up the feelings and theories and read a couple of books on plant culture. Find out what the commercial nursery industry does and why and stay away from the gimmicktry you find in forums like this.

You're on the road to disaster every step of the way. From the "drying out everyday" to the use of AN products.

Good luck,
UB
 

dr.tree

Member
Man this is all so complicated. UNCLE BEN YOUR MY HERO. I have this great method of just ripping open the bag of roots organic soil and throwing a clone right in the bag and that's it. It has great particle size, no washing pots, no transplant mess. As a added bonus there are little holes already the bag. The mushroom culture goes nuts all the Bennies do great. I don't know if there is any improvement that would be worth the time investment. Just my method. A true dirt bag. I'm just some Joe blow UNCLE BEN's got the good advice. My best advice if you want to be a awesome grower m blaze and uncle Ben are some huge sources of knowledge
 
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