Coloured fluorescent lights and their viability in growing chambers

[canadian1969]

I was thinking that if I wanted to supplement the light spectrum in a grow with more specific wavelengths it could be achieved by adding CFL's with different spectral characteristics or an LED panel or whatever, but has anyone tried coloured fluorescent lights?

like this link

I figure that with small (low wattage) grows maximizing the spectrum of available (useable) light is obviously of great importance. e.g. big peaks in green and yellow are of little or no use to the plants processes. Right?

So If I wanted to add more colour (say in the red 700nm range) without huge increases in wattage or temperature, would coloured CFL's work? Do these lights waste energy by reducing spectral output (Lumens)? I guess I also need to know if these lights are simply filtering out other wavelengths in favour of the red or is the lights actual energy output being converted to red wavelengths?

 

[mysunnyboy]

??? by color do you mean 2700k or 6500k??? not like actual red or blue "colored" lights right? i use only 2700k and 6500k cfls, i have had some 5000k and 5500k scattered around but for bang for the buck, i like to stick to 27 & 65

 

[canadian1969]

No, I mean actual "colored" bulbs, just like in the link I included in my OP. 2700K or 6500K is a temperature, Kelvin. Of course a colored bulb would also have a temperature and being red in color it would be emitting light below 2000K. Plants love that end of the spectrum. So it's back to my original question on if these bulbs (or similar) would be an effective spectrum supplement, their spectrum efficiency and if the reduction in lumens matters as long as you are targeting one peak wavelength?

I am trying to fine tune the spectrum of light I suppose.

 

[mysunnyboy]

No, I mean actual "colored" bulbs, just like in the link I included in my OP. 2700K or 6500K is a temperature, Kelvin. Of course a colored bulb would also have a temperature and being red in color it would be emitting light below 2000K. Plants love that end of the spectrum. So it's back to my original question on if these bulbs (or similar) would be an effective spectrum supplement, their spectrum efficiency and if the reduction in lumens matters as long as you are targeting one peak wavelength?

I am trying to fine tune the spectrum of light I suppose.

no that won't work. just because it's red in color doesn't mean it's red in the color spectrum, which is temperature k, red (flower) is 2700k and blue (veg) is 6500k.

this may help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grow_light

http://www.topbulb.com/lighting_information/info_color.asp

 

[canadian1969]

no that won't work. just because it's red in color doesn't mean it's red in the color spectrum, which is temperature k, red (flower) is 2700k and blue (veg) is 6500k.

Of course its red in the spectrum, its giving off red light. How can it NOT be in the red spectrum.
What I am talking about is whether or not you get any "more" red light off a coloured bulb versus a same uncoloured bulb. Maybe I am not explaining myself accurately.

In any event if you can see something RED it is in the low end of the spectrum (less than 2000 kelvin source, like a candle or embers). Or in this case the source light (internal to the bulb, could be anything above 2700K), but we don't get to see the other wavelengths because of the colouring of the bulb. It's like putting a red filter on a camera from my perspective. I would love to see the spectral output charts for two identical CFL's, one coloured red, one not.

 

[cannabutt]

CFL bulbs with paint on the outside are party lights! they wont grow shit in any colour. No Lumens get through

you want a white/blue 6400k daylight for veg and 2600/2700k for flower

you can see a real difference between the two

 

[canadian1969]

Yep, I am familiar with the difference, but whats important is the entire representation of the spectrum by any given light. Just saying its's a 2700 or 6400k light isn't the whole picture. In fact the colour temperature representation used by manufacturers (warm, soft, bright, daylight etc and then applying a single colour temperature to that bulb is misleading in my opinion, but that's not what I am asking here.

Let me ask in a different way, What if I wanted to add ONLY light in a specific wavelength, lets say red. What would you do to achieve this?

Right now I am only using 2700K CFL's, no problem there. Just want to boost the 600-700nm wavelengths (red only). Guess I will go with red LED's. Although, I can't see how using a red halogen or a red CFL wouldn't also achieve this. (assuming luminous efficiency and power are all similar).

 

[mysunnyboy]

CFL bulbs with paint on the outside are party lights! they wont grow shit in any colour. No Lumens get through

you want a white/blue 6400k daylight for veg and 2600/2700k for flower

you can see a real difference between the two

i thought we were being pretty clear about that cannabutt. guess we're not on the same wavelength as canadian1969.

one more time, red paint, plastic, dye, etc. will not help a mariuana plant flower. it's apples and oranges canada. the color (and yes my 2700k lights appear red, while the 6500k appear blue) is not determined by the color of the GLASS but by the temperature kelvin produced. but by all means, you go ahead and use a red glass light bulb. good luck with that.

 

[mysunnyboy]

Yep, I am familiar with the difference, but whats important is the entire representation of the spectrum by any given light. Just saying its's a 2700 or 6400k light isn't the whole picture. In fact the colour temperature representation used by manufacturers (warm, soft, bright, daylight etc and then applying a single colour temperature to that bulb is misleading in my opinion, but that's not what I am asking here.

Let me ask in a different way, What if I wanted to add ONLY light in a specific wavelength, lets say red. What would you do to achieve this?

Right now I am only using 2700K CFL's, no problem there. Just want to boost the 600-700nm wavelengths (red only). Guess I will go with red LED's. Although, I can't see how using a red halogen or a red CFL wouldn't also achieve this. (assuming luminous efficiency and power are all similar).

really? halogen??? idk you could use halogen lights. JK

 

[tftx22]

Yep, I am familiar with the difference, but whats important is the entire representation of the spectrum by any given light. Just saying its's a 2700 or 6400k light isn't the whole picture. In fact the colour temperature representation used by manufacturers (warm, soft, bright, daylight etc and then applying a single colour temperature to that bulb is misleading in my opinion, but that's not what I am asking here.

Let me ask in a different way, What if I wanted to add ONLY light in a specific wavelength, lets say red. What would you do to achieve this?

Right now I am only using 2700K CFL's, no problem there. Just want to boost the 600-700nm wavelengths (red only). Guess I will go with red LED's. Although, I can't see how using a red halogen or a red CFL wouldn't also achieve this. (assuming luminous efficiency and power are all similar).

You should try it out and get back to us on it. This sounds cutting edge, man!

 

[chasmtz]

i use a green party light like the one listed to enter my room when the lights are off

 

[canadian1969]

i use a green party light like the one listed to enter my room when the lights are off

Yep, that makes total sense as the plants reflect green, therefore not interrupting their light cycle. So why wouldn't a red light boost the red spectrum available to the plant? From a purely physics perspective it should work.

Saying things like "no lumens get through" and getting hung up on the somewhat misleading colour temperature ratings of CFL bulbs is just not true or relevant.

You cannot say that coloured bulbs don't work without ACTUALLY having a spectral output graph for that light or by having systematically trying it in a grow. I know for a fact that I can drop a red only LED array into my grow to boost that wavelength range with positive results, and the actual colour temp of the LED's is immaterial as I know they are in the 2000K range.

The only way I think one can effectively test this without having hard data on the bulb is to measure growth rates in a control environment with a coloured and non coloured version of the same bulb over similar periods of time. I'm not saying it would work, just I don't see why it wouldn't as long as you get a powerful enough light.

As for Halogens, they are very hot and likely why people don't use them, but in this theory the addition of a single coloured Halogen might work, again, simply to boost the red wavelength. I do not understand why you guys are so hung up on the colour temperature. It's not a totally accurate representation of a compact fluorescent bulbs actual spectral output. While every colour does has a related temperature rating, it's not really relevant to this discussion in my opinion.

The effectiveness of specific wavelengths, as you can see violet and red are the most effective ranges.

Sunlight versus a 2700K 23 watt CFL. So as you can see the majority of the light is in the lower temperature ranges, but it still has less useful peaks in other wavelengths. Every single type of CFL is going to represent the spectrum differently. So the only thing you can determine from a colour temperature rating on a light is that it's going to have a peak in that colour temperature range, roughly, but it's not completely accurate. As you can see the bulb spends energy in the green range, which we know is useless to the plant. So if this bulb was coloured I can see the overall Lumens dropping, but dropping in favour of the red spectrum (and then I'm back to the question of do you get more or less red wavelength out of the coloured version of the bulb versus a non-coloured)

So, again if I wanted to target a specific wavelength range like 400-450nM and 650-700nM, which are the peak ranges for Photosynthetic action then what would you do? I know LED's work for this, so is that the only option? I know that LED's are different in that they produce light at a specific wavelength only (650nM for example) so their spectrograph would have a single bright line at that wavelength AND they do not require that the lense be coloured, for that reason (although you do see coloured lenses).
I'm not deliberately trying to argue with anyone as this is mostly an academic exercise, but I haven't heard any convincing arguments as to why this wouldn't work (boosting red(only) with coloured lights).

 

[tftx22]

Dude, you are so nuking this... Stop reading. The only way to know exactly is to measure it. It will be a non-standard bulb for cost (a literal grab bag of whatever accentuated the "party" color, not natural color. You notice how that dude said he uses that bulb in the night time, lumens get through, enough to keep a plant vegging depending on how direct. The plant doesn't absorb well not because of the green outer shell but the low wattage incandescent bulb itself. CFL's aren't the most efficient bulb on the planet for growing, why you would want to coat that down for even further decrease in penetration, I do not know. There is a great thread about T5's that fit all parts of the spectrum that the plant desires plus extra in UV-B, to increase potency. I don't feel the initial buy-in is worth it but he definitely nailed it with equipment he had on hand.

The "red" you are undoubtedly referring to is 2700*K. This isn't even a dent in what it naturally needs. There are deeper reds that blend with blues and purples. Also the strain's genetics are going to determine what it likes best. Such as it's parent's geographic locations. You want to give the plant the light it reacts best to during that stage of it's life. It's a shitty place for non-full spectrum growers, and an even shittier place for fluorescent growers constantly trying to meet that demand, hot and cold swapping decays life of the lamps and I will definitely never experiment with them ever again. So if you want to take on this experiment, drop the trivial science that accommodates this, know the light cycles of it's parents, mimic those and feel free to add in elevation or equatorial greenhouse effects if you want it that natural.

You aren't trying to argue? Then why is it we have to provide you with a convincing argument? If you 'know' that there is something that we've all been missing this entire time, then why don't you go ahead and research it with your own money and time instead of seeing where prodding us gets you? Assignment: Come back with the results of subjecting too very similar clones and immediately flower both of them seperated apart from each other, one under a 2700k and the other under a "red" party bulb cfl of equal wattage. You'll immediately see the lumen difference and realise this test is lame and the clear winner will be the 2700k even if you retarded it's growth in someway, the end result will be the same.

I dare you to prove me wrong, you've done clearly more research than I, and I would love an unbiased astonishing read of what ever magnitude you are suggesting.

 

[canadian1969]

Dude, you are so nuking this... Stop reading. The only way to know exactly is to measure it. It will be a non-standard bulb for cost (a literal grab bag of whatever accentuated the "party" color, not natural color. You notice how that dude said he uses that bulb in the night time, lumens get through, enough to keep a plant vegging depending on how direct. The plant doesn't absorb well not because of the green outer shell but the low wattage incandescent bulb itself.

I dont believe you are correct. Chasmtz uses his green party light to work on his plants during night cycles (so as not to disturb his plants light cycles), green light is not used by the plant, at all. He uses it at night because he knows his plants simply reflect those wavelengths. Allows him to work without messing up the plants. Has nothing to do with the output of the lamp (lumens) although there wouldn't be a requirement for a high wattage green light anyway. I don't know where you got "incandescent" out of this conversation. I am pretty sure he is refering to a green version of a coloured CFL like I put in the link in the first post.

Red ranges in colour wavelengths from 650-750nm (roughly) and colour temps from 800-2200K. You need to stop talking about CFL colour temperature ratings as I have already explained that they are about as meaningful as the verbiage associated with them (cool white, warm white, etc). I am not referring to any colour temperature, I am focusing on specific wavelengths in the red end of the spectrum. Using the colour temp ratings seen on CFL packaging is meaningless.

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I would like to know how you provide "elevation or equatorial greenhouse effects", please provide some more details if you can. Would be cool if you can link to the T5 thread you referred too as well.
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I'm not trying to argue, or be a troll or whatever. Just having a discussion, if its upsetting to you feel free to unsub this thread. I did say in a previous post "The only way I think one can effectively test this without having hard data on the bulb is to measure growth rates in a control environment with a coloured and non coloured version of the same bulb over similar periods of time." SO yes, the only way to find out is to test it. What you seem to be missing here is that I am not talking about growing exclusively with "party lights". I am only trying to suppliment the already existing light with "red only" light. I will definately test this out, myself and with my own money, I dont think I ever suggested that anyone else do this for me, nor am I "prodding" anyone. You dont think it will work, whatever, you contributed, great, thanks. Don't feel that you are required to continue reading this thread.

As for the party light issue, so far my research has yielded that a coloured CFL will be at least 30% less powerful than a same non-coloured version, in terms of Lumens. SO a 13 watt 900 lumen CFL, when coloured will put out 600 Lumens max. What that doesn't tell us is the spectral output of the coloured bulb versus the non-coloured bulb. I have requested a spectrograph on a coloured bulb from Philips. If such data exists; it is my hope that they provide it. That will put this issue to rest from a theory perspective, practical experimentation is the final step. this would give me a measured comparison of the same bulbs (coloured and non-coloured)

As for experimenting, I am thinking about putting in two 13 watt CFL's (in addition to the existing lights) one will be red and one black. This would be an addition during flower. I am hoping that these lights will supplement the existing light with >600nm wavelengths and add some <400nm as well. On the subsequent grow I will simply add two 13 watt non-coloured bulbs for flower and compare results. That's months away though

Is there data on UV light increasing potency anywhere? Sounds cool. (Strangely enough I noticed this while watching the recent movie "Attack the block", the grow room featured in that flick (good movie BTW) was heavy in the UV end. Looked like they were only using Blue/UV lights.

As a side note, rather than colour temperature, for the purposes of this discussion "colour rendering" is a better indicator of what I am talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Color_rendering_index

 

[Weedotron]

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first.html

Super relevant. Someone using specific spectrum T5's

Good luck and good on you for combining weed growth and science

 

[canadian1969]

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first.html

Super relevant. Someone using specific spectrum T5's

Good luck and good on you for combining weed growth and science

That is an AWESOME read, thanks!!!

FYI, home made spectrograph of my CFL's, lots of wasted green light energy, surprised by amount of blue in a 2700K CFL, but thats what I have been driving at in these posts.
A better digital camera would show much more detail including absorption lines. All of which can be seen with the naked eye.

 

[mysunnyboy]

^^^that's the image you got from a outwardly "normal" appearing cfl correct? show us a red plastic covered one now. geesh i give up happy growing

 

[canadian1969]

Um, yeah thats the current 23 watters I have installed. I can already tell what would happen to the spectrum by also putting in a couple 13 watt coloured CFL's.
Did you really give up or are you just teasing me ;-P

 

[smokesalot421]

filtering out light with a coloured lens will not produce more light. in any spectrum.

 

[smokesalot421]

filtering out light with a coloured lens will not produce more light. in any spectrum.