Could Kelp extracts be a waste of money?

Afka

Active Member
Can I have my 5 minutes back from reading your useless article which said nothing?

Oh wait. That sometimes adding mycorhizal fungi is useless, in tree planting, because there are already native species present. Right.

"Due to the tremendous
number of variables in “brewing” compost teas
(ph, fermentation time, water source and content, temperature,
added nutrients, feedstocks and aerated vs.
not) the results are hard to replicate and quite variable;
this makes studies hard to publish."

Considering the trophic levels of predation, if you can scope some protozoa (or organisms higher in the foodchain) in your CT under a scope, you've every other ingredient necessary because the higher levels of predators are intimately linked to their prey. No/insufficient prey: no predators.


Forget pot plants, let's see a picture of your field UB. Or do you not have that either.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Can I have my 5 minutes back from reading your useless article which said nothing?

Oh wait. That sometimes adding mycorhizal fungi is useless, in tree planting, because there are already native species present. Right.

"Due to the tremendous
number of variables in “brewing” compost teas
(ph, fermentation time, water source and content, temperature,
added nutrients, feedstocks and aerated vs.
not) the results are hard to replicate and quite variable;
this makes studies hard to publish."

Considering the trophic levels of predation, if you can scope some protozoa (or organisms higher in the foodchain) in your CT under a scope, you've every other ingredient necessary because the higher levels of predators are intimately linked to their prey. No/insufficient prey: no predators.

Forget pot plants, let's see a picture of your field UB. Or do you not have that either.
It's not my fault you can't accept the facts.

Yes, I have acreage and it is planted into a cash crop. No, you can't see it.

UB
 

Afka

Active Member
Funny, I only fertilize my oats with foliar kelp applications :)


I tried finding those facts, where were they? You will find the author made very clever use of the bolded word MAY.

At least people going over this will know you're a fraud. Shilling your petrochemical garbage is not any better than advanced mike selling his blend of overexpensive magic crap.
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Snake Oil: Horticultural Myths and Legends

Page 4. Best paper I've read yet on the subject. It should be excellent as it was written by a scientist, a Ph.D in the field of horticulture as opposed to some dickhead pimping Advanced Shysters.

http://ceventura.ucdavis.edu/newsletters/Topics_in_Subtropics39882.pdf
I think it's fair to acknowledge that the above paper is NOT a peer reviewed article NOR does it even mention kelp products. Broad generalizations about fungus and different products and conditions, the article really is bunk. To extrapolate that in some conditions M fungus is not necessary due to native populations or that compost tea is hard to effectively study and then blanket those products as bunk altogether truly is short sighted.

The ONLY thing that keeps my DWC set up pathogen free is the addition of weekly compost tea. Others have had similar positive results. So instead of dumping h2o2 or chloramines into your water, you can accomplish the same thing by adding beneficial fungus. This has been proven to help dozens of RIU members using dwc and there is an excellent thread in it. https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka-116.html

SO feel free to stop by and claim that we are all victims of snake oil products that are not valid.

Cash crop..lol. Uhh huh.
 

GreatwhiteNorth

Global Moderator
Staff member
I think it's fair to acknowledge that the above paper is NOT a peer reviewed article NOR does it even mention kelp products. Broad generalizations about fungus and different products and conditions, the article really is bunk. To extrapolate that in some conditions M fungus is not necessary due to native populations or that compost tea is hard to effectively study and then blanket those products as bunk altogether truly is short sighted.

The ONLY thing that keeps my DWC set up pathogen free is the addition of weekly compost tea. Others have had similar positive results. So instead of dumping h2o2 or chloramines into your water, you can accomplish the same thing by adding beneficial fungus. This has been proven to help dozens of RIU members using dwc and there is an excellent thread in it. https://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/361430-dwc-root-slime-cure-aka-116.html

SO feel free to stop by and claim that we are all victims of snake oil products that are not valid.

Cash crop..lol. Uhh huh.
I pulled my sub here when I saw you bolt. I have a lot of trouble listening to a pompous mouthpiece deride others with unsubstantiated bluster.
Perhaps others are impressed with his knowledge but I am not one of them.
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
I hear ya. I unsubbed as well but saw it up top so popped in. I only posted to let other, less experienced growers, or more specifically, those less critical thinking types know that the above posted article, while not technically incorrect, is misleading.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I hear ya. I unsubbed as well but saw it up top so popped in. I only posted to let other, less experienced growers, or more specifically, those less critical thinking types know that the above posted article, while not technically incorrect, is misleading.
Now wait a minute. So, you're trying to convince a few at Troll It Up that you and your feel good stoner buddies have it over horticulturists with doctorate degrees?

Hah!
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
ya ya ya, grammar is not my strong suite, or sentence structure, so what

being right is, eat my kelp

keep your chemical crap, ill keep my naturally fermented and cold press crap

but dont try and propagate your lies here though
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Let's try this again. "Here are the credentials of the author who wrote the article".

And what pray tell is the tree "wisperer" telling you? Are da leaves falling round yo haid?
Ben. Two questions:

1. What medium do you grow in?
2. Why are you here? I mean this very seriously, why? What do you get from this exchange?
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Ben. Two questions:

1. What medium do you grow in?
2. Why are you here? I mean this very seriously, why? What do you get from this exchange?
Its a valid question.

I readily admit that I can be hard headed but I am certainly not opposed to trying something different or learning what works when multiple people have experienced good results. After all, that was the purpose of starting this thread. I do allot of research on MJ growing, most of it NOT on forums, and found the article claiming that kelp didn't work interesting.

Lumping things together and making over reaching stereotypes "snake oil crap" is never really a cogent way of presenting your knowledge on a subject.
 

inhaleindica

Well-Known Member
You know what, boo hoo, your thread is about kelp's possible benefits i think it helps ben thinks it doesnt and is environmentally unsound to mine, just because the discussion doesn't halt and about face when you bark . . . . ok

And to ben and Daniels, take my name ill show you(shakes fist in air), you have some good points about environmental ramifications and i checked my Canna shit and its a by product of fermented algae, not kelp . . .. . . but i still think kelp is

beneficial, i still think kelp is a great addition to any soil or garden but it should be farmed environmentally responsible, oh well another thread for another day as if kelp mining is the worst environmental hazard of hobbyist or commercial growers
Dude your an idiot and you just made a fool out of yourself bashing Legallyfly especially when its his thread. I have no idea who you are but you do have some good points but you go too far when you talk to the thread starter like that.

I have a lot of respect for Uncle Ben as he is mentioned in several books. Jorge Cervantes has mentioned his methods in his book as well. I have used seaweed exract and I am not sure if they are the same type of product but different plant? I don't see that much of a difference in them so basically I wouldn't be using them anymore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, respect to one another. If he or one believes in one thing or another and you don't agree say it once and let them be. I just don't see why waste time bashing, it will not get you anywhere. It is our job to see for ourself and believe what you believe works. "Never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you to thier level and beat you to it!"
 

ScorpionX

Member
Thought you guys might benefit from this copy paste on kelp :) ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT STUFF, a must read!

[10:33:38 AM] ScorpionX9T2: "Superthrive equivelent. "
[10:33:45 AM] ScorpionX9T2: "It's vitamin B1, and hormones for rooting and growth."
[10:33:57 AM] ScorpionX9T2: "Kelp!
Has alot of the same growth hormones, etc.

here is a little cut n paste

Celticman

Kelp is any of a variety of large, brown seaweeds
that grow underwater and on rocky shores. Kelps are
found in cold waters throughout the world.

Kelps vary widely in size and form. One type of kelp,
called giant kelp, may have hundreds of branches, each
of which has hundreds of leaves. Giant kelp may reach
over 200 feet in length and will create entire forests
of kelp. Other kelp consists of only a single branch
and may be less than 3 feet long. But what they all
share is that it is hard to tell the stems from the leaves.

The role of kelp in agriculture dates back thousands of
years, and has been an integral part of coastal farming.
It can be said with honesty that kelp is the most effective
additive next to quality fertilizer.

The kelp that has the most importance for our needs is a
kelp that grows in the cold canadian waters of the Atlantic
Ocean, it is called Ascophyllum Nodosum. There are many kelps
that have great benefits for agriculture but this particular
kelp has the gold medal.

Ascophyllum is harvested by collecting from either the rocky
shores or using a type of dredge or seine to catch it. It is
then washed with fresh water to rid it of excess sea salt and
then it is dried and powdered. It is very important that they
harvest it at just the right time to ensure that the cytokinin
levels are at their peak (cytokinins are growth hormones
responsible for cell division in plants).

Kelp contains many wonderful things such as over 70 minerals
and trace elements, growth hormones, vitamins, enzymes, and proteins.

It has been proven that kelp or what is in kelp can accelerate growth,
increase fruiting and flowering, provide resistance to disease, insects
and frost. There are a couple of things that are important in regards
to the benefits of kelp and how they work. The first one is all of the
trace elements and minerals which are aided by a carbohydrate mannitol
that chelates or makes available certain minerals. One of the problems
of modern farming is enabling the plant to take up all of the nutrients
to complete a healthy life cycle. Chelates are very important in
allowing plants to take up certain essential elements. What researchers
have discovered is that with so many trace elements and minerals as
well as vitamins and enzymes not to mention growth hormones, kelp
aids in building and or supporting the plants natural immune system.
If you can keep a plants immune system high it will have the ability
to resist disease, insects, frost, and drought.

The second important and perhaps the most important aspect of kelp
is the growth hormones. Kelp contains ample quantities of auxins,
gibberellins, and cytokinins. All growth hormones play a part in
how a plant functions, and are more accurately called growth
regulators. Kelp has very high amounts of a particular hormone,
cytokinin. Cytokinins are responsible for cell division, cell
enlargement, differentiation of cells, development of chloroplasts
as well as a delay in aging.

When kelp is used regularly you will notice that the overall health
of the plant will increase and that when applied at certain times
major growth will occur.

There are many ways to use kelp with foliar spraying being the most
effective. You can improve specific growth stages by applying kelp
with a specific response in mind. For example, if your tomatoes or
peas are starting to bud, you can apply kelp to promote additional
buds. If you require more root growth then you would apply it to
the root zone after transplanting. Cytokinins respond within what
ever stage that the plant is in. Spray in vegetative then you will
experience more vegetative growth, spray in flower then you will
experience more flowering etc...

There are several forms that kelp comes in and some forms offer
more benefits than others. Granular kelp is often mixed in with
other fertilizers and doesn't contain as high concentrations of
ytokinins as liquid concentrate. If you are looking to supplement
your present fertilizer regime then you would probably add
powdered kelp. If however you are trying to promote more
flowering or budding sites then you would use a concentrated
liquid kelp product such as Growth Max or Growth Plus which
both have a cytokinin level of 400 ppm.

Foliar spraying is the most effective way of applying kelp,
since leaves are up to 8 times more effecient in taking in of
nutrients than through the root system. When foliar spraying
try to apply in the early morning when the plant is the most
active and the stomata are open to their fullest, avoid
praying before it rains, use high quality water with a ph
of 6.0, and any foliar spray benefits from a non ionic wetting
agent such as Mega Wet.

In conclusion, kelp can help germinate seeds quicker, improve
taking of cuttings, encourage rooting, build immunity, add more
colour and flavour, give a longer shelf life, produce more and
larger buds and flowers, counter any nutrient defiencies,
and fight off insects and disease. Kelp is truly mother natures
gift to the modern gardener.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I'll reiterate what I posted here: https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/294174-pk-13-14-before-after-3.html#post6524496

University doctors of horticultural are scientists. They are non-partisan and it should be obvious that they do not have any monetary gain regarding their positions. See my new thread in Advanced regarding one doctor who debunks all the myths that the cannabis shysters use to pad their pockets.

A doctor working at AN or HG or one of the other cannabis oil companies? I'd like to see his credentials.

"Word" aka anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing to me, only bonafide empirical field studies replicated 3 times by a non-partisan lab qualified and funded to conduct objective and accurate studies have any merit.

UB
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Thought you guys might benefit from this copy paste on kelp :) ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT STUFF, a must read!......

In conclusion, kelp can help germinate seeds quicker, improve
taking of cuttings, encourage rooting, build immunity, add more
colour and flavour, give a longer shelf life, produce more and
larger buds and flowers, counter any nutrient defiencies,
and fight off insects and disease. Kelp is truly mother natures
gift to the modern gardener.
Yeah, absolutely "brilliant". Tell me, what university site did you copy that from?
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
from my personal experiance Kelp also helps with Carotene and Terpene production. in plants Carotene is responsible for the Blue / Green / Red coloration of the plant leaves, it will turn the plants ALL KIDSW of colors (if the genetic expression is in the plant, of course).

THCV (The precursor to THC) and THC are Both terpenes. through out my 3 years of using kelp i have found that Kelp CAN help with THC production, but it has to be applied properly.

stop applying the Kelp for around a week (around 3 weeks before harvest) Then for the last 2 weeks Feed with a Kelp + Molasses mixture. the Kelp will feed the Plants and the Molasses will feed the soil. The plant will believe it is dieing from a week of No nutrients, then when the Kelp is introduced it will cause the plant to put all of its energy into one final Burst of life.

most of this can not be corroborated with further evidence. the information in THIS post is personal experience. just to make that clear....

your idea to use a kelp molasses in last two weeks intrigues me, currently i am using Budswell its a bat guano tea. and does exactly what you described, colors start to come out in flowers and fan leaves, also very smooth flush,
 

haole420

Active Member
i use real kelp (from asian grocery store) and powdered spirulina. the kelp, i soak overnight to get some of the salt out of it. then i grind it up with roasted barley (also packed with vitamins, hormones, carbs) in a blender, add it to a 5gal bucket of water, and bubble it up with great white for 36hours.

why buy some shit in a bottle for 20X the price when i can get quality FOOD GRADE kelp. every once in a while, i might also grind up some left over (gutted) bait fish. just 'cause it comes out of a bottle with a fancy label doesn't mean it's better than the real thing. so yes: bottled kelp extracts are, indeed, a waste of money.
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
if yall lived near me i would buy all the decenter's a bottle of Rhizotonic, technically not a kelp products but same family, its an algae cold fermentation extraction processes no chemicals

and i would guarantee that all of you would see a difference with the one plant vs the non Rhizo plant, and yes you can easily make your own teas with fresh products but you can do that with everything, why pay for a steak or a vegetable when you can grow your own, its called convenience, i mean if everyone used super soils ferts would even be needed or any of this crap that most buy


. . . . .. news flash Walter Cronkite, people are lazy, i mean fuck i know a guy who uses the lucas formula and just buys all his NPK in dry forms and mixes his own, you can do anything, but to claim that kelp extracts dont work , because you have other options . . .

makes no sense, at least UB brought the heat, instead of fallacies

and for the most part UB is right, most companies dont have your plants your customer or you in their concern, but most doesnt mean all and there is a good reason i have always used Canna or products of similar quality and never some synthesized petro/chemical bullshit
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
i use real kelp (from asian grocery store) and powdered spirulina. the kelp, i soak overnight to get some of the salt out of it. then i grind it up with roasted barley (also packed with vitamins, hormones, carbs) in a blender, add it to a 5gal bucket of water, and bubble it up with great white for 36hours.
Roasted barley, are you kidding?
 
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