The seven biggest economic lies

WillyBagseed

Active Member
U.S. v. Miller (1939), the last time the Court examined the amendment in any serious way. In Miller, the Court affirmed a median interpretation holding that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, but only if the arms in question are those that would be useful as part of a citizen militia.

I read that as machine guns and grenade launchers... =)


What is the true definition of useful in a citizen militia... again too vague. I'll take what they wrote in the Constitution as it is written. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

You have actually never heard the argument anti gun people use about militias and guns?



the new DC ruling is starting to lean the other way.... Thank FSM.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6471399 said:
U.S. v. Miller (1939), the last time the Court examined the amendment in any serious way. In Miller, the Court affirmed a median interpretation holding that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, but only if the arms in question are those that would be useful as part of a citizen militia.

I read that as machine guns and grenade launchers... =)


What is the true definition of useful in a citizen militia... again too vague. I'll take what they wrote in the Constitution as it is written. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

You have actually never heard the argument anti gun people use about militias and guns?



the new DC ruling is starting to lean the other way.... Thank FSM.
No I actually haven't. This can only be upheld by living constitutionalists because I can probably pull a quote from every single framer of the constitution refuting the argument. Meh.... Interesting....

I can understand nuclear bombs...
 

Coals

Active Member
You forgot one economic lie; The over spending myth. I ALWAYS hear people complain about "stupid people spending too much". Now Im not saying it doesnt happen, but it is not relavent to the big picture.
Elizabeth Warren bitch slaps that myth in this article: http://www.yale.edu/law/leo/052005/papers/Warren.pdf and also mentions it in her book; The Two Income Trap.
If you want an economic does of reality form the top Economist in the country then read her shit.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
You forgot one economic lie; The over spending myth. I ALWAYS hear people complain about "stupid people spending too much". Now Im not saying it doesnt happen, but it is not relavent to the big picture.
Elizabeth Warren bitch slaps that myth in this article: http://www.yale.edu/law/leo/052005/papers/Warren.pdf and also mentions it in her book; The Two Income Trap.
If you want an economic does of reality form the top Economist in the country then read her shit.
If you make $30k a year and you spend $50K, you have overspent and it is going to catch up to you and it won't be good. It is not a myth, it is reality. Government happens to be the biggest spender of YOUR money and you don't see anything wrong with it?
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6470383 said:
I want to change nothing about the second amendment, anti gun people like to try to say it was meant for militias as the intent of the framers. It is an arguable case but, it is not how it was written.
Just like General Welfare, an arguable case but not how it was written. You cannot have it both ways.

*This:Despite any opinion of general welfare it does not change what General Welfare means, it means General Welfare (aka Public Interest), not what you or James Madison think it should mean.

*What I meant is I do not give a shit who meant what about the Constitution, there are way to many arguments on both sides........I care how it was written. None of that Lawyer double speak, technical bullshit to twist a meaning for your own use.

"Shall not be infringed" and "provide for the general welfare" mean just what they say, PERIOD.

I swear to FSM ( Flying Spaghetti Monster) ........ Like some people say I swear to god.

Uncle Buck likes to point out poor English, and defining a word by using the word itself is poor English.(was getting on myself about it before UB did)





**Article 1, Section 9:
No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

Clarified with:

16th Amendment
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


**If we like "opinions" you do know what this was for yes (Article 1 Section 9)? Not to keep income tax out but so the Southern states did not get unfairly taxed on per slave owned. And if you want to use just how it was written, and you should, then the 16th amendment defines it better.

If you are one of those people who like to pick and choose ... 13,14 and 16 are bad....... lol... too bad. They are in the Constitution, what about the people who dislike parts you like? Do they get to ignore those parts???? All or nothing, just like what I say to picky religious folk and their book.


First thing you ask somebody(Christian) calling you a sinner is if they or their spouse have ever been married and divorced (rate is high in the USA so you have a good chance one has) if so, they are living in sin and need to STFU until they fix their own situation. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Humans are not perfect and are bound to make mistakes. Things made by humans are not perfect, either and that is especially true of doctrine. You could rewrite the Constitution a thousand times and it would still be "constructed" by those who wish to change the original intent.

You accuse some of "cherry picking" parts of the Constitution, while ignoring others. I have news for you, we ALL do that. That is why the founders included a way to amend their document. Should we abolish the 13th Amendment and emancipation because of the 3/5ths clause? Certainly not, just as we should not infringe upon the individual's right to keep and bear arms. It could have been written better, so that in todays english, it would be better understood but that is why you must read this with the mindset of an 18th century American. For the most part, the founders were against standing armies, therefore, all the citizenry were considered the militia and the 3/5ths clause was a compromise to the southern states and rightfully corrected in the 13th Amend.

The "general welfare" phrase, much like the "interstate commerce" clause has been used literally to the exact opposite of the intent. The declared intent of the Federal Reserve Act, Social Security, the Patriot Act, etc was for the benefit of the general public but their results have been anything but beneficial to the general welfare.
Suppose an amendment was passed that declared marijuana a threat to national security and possession was punishable by death. It's in the Constitution, therefore, according to you, it's acceptable. Do you see how ridiculous it can get? Or, how about the 2nd Amend.? According to your philosophy, only well regulated militias are allowed to keep and bear arms because THAT is what is written.

The 16th Amendment states:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
What is meant by "income"? Since the word is used "in the Constitution" it cannot be defined outside of the Constitution. If the meaning was clear and unambiguous, there would be no problem. The general rule is when a statutory term is undefined, it is given it's ordinary, common meaning. However, there is (and was, in 1913) no such thing. If that's the case, we cannot know what Amendment 16 means, and never will know unless and until it is further amended with a definition. Likewise Title 26 Subtitle A, which is the body of law that Congress enacted after being so enabled, cannot and did not define the term - though it makes use of it extensively. That is absurd! A vitally important body of law about an entity which is, literally, meaning-less! So, how are we to know what it means? The USSC has ruled that income is NOT wages paid in exchange for labor AND that the 16th Amend. gives no new power of taxation.
Bouvier's Law Dictionary defines "income" as "The gain which proceeds from property, labor, or business; it is applied particularly to individuals; the income of the government is usually called revenue." The aspect of gain seems pre-eminent and is troubling. Clearly a business can receive gain, by trading; that's what it's there for, to produce profit for its shareholders. But can an individual receive gain, for his labor? Is not his labor provided in a straight exchange for wages or salary, with no profit or gain arising? Here are five court cases that clearly say that it is - and if there are others to contradict that, the contradiction further confirms that "income" is not a term with a "common, ordinary meaning" in legal speech.

You have said "What I meant is I do not give a shit who meant what about the Constitution, there are way to many arguments on both sides........I care how it was written. None of that Lawyer double speak, technical bullshit to twist a meaning for your own use."
I say, you cannot know what a document truly means unless you understand the context or mindset present when it was written.
 

Coals

Active Member
If you make $30k a year and you spend $50K, you have overspent and it is going to catch up to you and it won't be good. It is not a myth, it is reality. Government happens to be the biggest spender of YOUR money and you don't see anything wrong with it?

You should really just read it befor replying to it.

Anywho she proves using facts that the average middle class family in 2006 is not spending anymore money than said family in 1970. What has changed is the amount of disposable income and the amount of two income trap families.

Everything has gone up. We have a counterfeit, inflationary monetary system based on fake US Fed notes. Inflation in, the average wage has been stagnant for about 30 years. The cost of power, fuel, education, housing, nursing, healthcare, security, food, everything has gone up.

While your CEO has seen an average increase of about 300%, you have seen none.

Government is a whole different story. They are trapped and have no choice but to over spend. It is mathematically impossible to pay off a debt if you have to purchase money, at interest, from your debtors. Its like your boss giving you a paycheque but than saying you have to re-pay it with interest. How do you ever make enough money to pay back the debt? Its a trap! That is the situation the G20 is in. This is all by design ofcourse.

In 1913 a dumb ass named Woodrow Wilson was talked into privatizing the Fed. It was supposed to "smooth the business cycle". 15 years later we had the depression. The same rationale was used to justify forming the EU. Really all it did was consolidate control of the monetary system for the privatley owned World Bank.

The families pushing this agenda have been doing this for centuries and are very good at it. They gobbled up the UK in the late 1800's by forcing them to privatize the Bank of England after bankrupting the country through costly wars and predatory lending. Same hting for France.

These families see no difference between a person and a country. If you owe them, they get to take your assets. So they get to trade their worthless counterfiet money for your actual assets of value. Thats why they crash the economy on a regular basis. It allows them to suck assets, increase influence and often change laws in their favour.

Anyway the US now owes what? nearly 12 trillion? With no way to re-pay it. We could fire every government employee, cut spending to 0 and increase taxes to 100% and the debt would still go up every single second of every day. These people will be coming for their assets. Those assets are every person, building, and fucking item in the bankrupt nations that trade is "US dollars". Everyone of which has been counterfiet since 1913 according to the constitution.

Im a "bleeding heart Liberal pussy" and I say; Ron Paul 2012. And yes i do realize that if he is elected and tries to take out the Federal Reserve he will be assasinated just like JFK was for trying to do the same thing, but he is fully aware of the risks and is going ahead anyway so we all need to support him.

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." — Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" — Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)

"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions.
They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" — Congressional Record 12595-12603 — Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." — President Woodrow Wilson aka a total fucking douche bag.
 

Coals

Active Member
POlitics is a ploy to divide and conquer. As long as you hate your neighbour because he is a fag hating conservative, or vice versa, or whatever narrow minded bullshit you can think of, we are unable to see and therefore fight the real enemy. As a result, the human race is destined for slavery.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
2. The best question to ask is is it fair? Is it fair to tax the rich 91% and the middle and lower class 20%? Absolutely not. Also, it would hurt the economy in the long run because wealth redistribution will do nothing but discourage people from pursuing the wealth.
It didn't hurt the economy when we had those tax rates in the past. When we had those tax rates our economy was at it's strongest because the wealthy were better off investing money into their businesses rather than sitting on piles of cash like they are doing now.

Is it really fair that the top 1% control half of the wealth in this country, everyone outside the top 1% has almost no access to government, and socioeconomic mobility here is less possible than any other first world nation in the world?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
It didn't hurt the economy when we had those tax rates in the past. When we had those tax rates our economy was at it's strongest because the wealthy were better off investing money into their businesses rather than sitting on piles of cash like they are doing now.

Is it really fair that the top 1% control half of the wealth in this country, everyone outside the top 1% has almost no access to government, and socioeconomic mobility here is less possible than any other first world nation in the world?
So your saying that high taxes = prosperity? Are you sure we did well in the past becasue we had high taxes or was it because other people wanted to buy our products?
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Well we could change much of the Constitution if we go by intent only.

Many of our freedoms were really only supposed to apply to landowners.

And technically about 99% of people who think they are landowners are just life tenants.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
So your saying that high taxes = prosperity?
No. I said a high tax rate on the wealthy leads to an incentive to reinvest their money in their businesses rather than just sit on piles of cash. That is a very different statement than "if we raise everyone's taxes we will be more prosperous". Of course you know that and are intentionally mischaracterising what I'm saying because the position that the wealthy should pay a historically low tax rate at the expense of the country is an indefensible position so the only way you can dispute me is to pretend I'm saying something that I'm not saying.

Are you sure we did well in the past becasue we had high taxes or was it because other people wanted to buy our products?
When companies invest more in their businesses instead of just sucking out all the money from the corporation they can, they tend to produce better products, so yes.

Are you disputing the fact that our country was extremely prosperous and in less debt when we had a higher tax rate on the wealthy? You can dispute that if you want, but you'd be wrong because that statement is a proven well documented fact.
 

chickengutz

Well-Known Member
A high tax rate on the wealthy leads to an incentive to reinvest their money all right. They move their businesses to Mexico and China
 

Brick Top

New Member
People who say 'tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich, that's how the government should get more money' ... don't know dick about the effects taxation has on federally collected revenues. Lowering taxation on the upper income bracket earners always results in an increase in collected federal revenues. It always has. It is irrefutable.


The Falsehood That Tax Cuts Increase The Deficit
Now let’s take a look at the utterly fallacious view that tax cuts in general create higher deficits.
Let’s take a trip back in time, starting with the 1920s. From Burton Folsom’s book, New Deal or Raw Deal?:
In 1921, President Harding asked the sixty-five-year-old [Andrew] Mellon to be secretary of the treasury; the national debt [resulting from WWI] had surpassed $20 billion and unemployment had reached 11.7 percent, one of the highest rates in U.S. history. Harding invited Mellon to tinker with tax rates to encourage investment without incurring more debt. Mellon studied the problem carefully; his solution was what is today called “supply side economics,” the idea of cutting taxes to stimulate investment. High income tax rates, Mellon argued, “inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw this capital from productive business and invest it in tax-exempt securities. . . . The result is that the sources of taxation are drying up, wealth is failing to carry its share of the tax burden; and capital is being diverted into channels which yield neither revenue to the Government nor profit to the people” (page 128).
Mellon wrote, “It seems difficult for some to understand that high rates of taxation do not necessarily mean large revenue to the Government, and that more revenue may often be obtained by lower taxes.” And he compared the government setting tax rates on incomes to a businessman setting prices on products: “If a price is fixed too high, sales drop off and with them profits.”
And what happened?
“As secretary of the treasury, Mellon promoted, and Harding and Coolidge backed, a plan that eventually cut taxes on large incomes from 73 to 24 percent and on smaller incomes from 4 to 1/2 of 1 percent. These tax cuts helped produce an outpouring of economic development – from air conditioning to refrigerators to zippers, Scotch tape to radios and talking movies. Investors took more risks when they were allowed to keep more of their gains. President Coolidge, during his six years in office, averaged only 3.3 percent unemployment and 1 percent inflation – the lowest misery index of any president in the twentieth century.
Furthermore, Mellon was also vindicated in his astonishing predictions that cutting taxes across the board would generate more revenue. In the early 1920s, when the highest tax rate was 73 percent, the total income tax revenue to the U.S. government was a little over $700 million. In 1928 and 1929, when the top tax rate was slashed to 25 and 24 percent, the total revenue topped the $1 billion mark. Also remarkable, as Table 3 indicates, is that the burden of paying these taxes fell increasingly upon the wealthy” (page 129-130).
Now, that is incredible upon its face, but it becomes even more incredible when contrasted with FDR’s antibusiness and confiscatory tax policies, which both dramatically shrunk in terms of actual income tax revenues (from $1.096 billion in 1929 to $527 million in 1935), and dramatically shifted the tax burden to the backs of the poor by imposing huge new excise taxes (from $540 million in 1929 to $1.364 billion in 1935). See Table 1 on page 125 of New Deal or Raw Deal for that information.
FDR both collected far less taxes from the rich, while imposing a far more onerous tax burden upon the poor.
It is simply a matter of empirical fact that tax cuts create increased revenue, and that those [Democrats] who have refused to pay attention to that fact have ended up reducing government revenues even as they increased the burdens on the poorest whom they falsely claim to help.
Let’s move on to John F. Kennedy, one of the most popular Democrat presidents ever. Few realize that he was also a supply-side tax cutter.
Kennedy said:
“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”
– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president’s news conference
“Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 17, 1963, annual budget message to the Congress, fiscal year 1964
“In today’s economy, fiscal prudence and responsibility call for tax reduction even if it temporarily enlarges the federal deficit – why reducing taxes is the best way open to us to increase revenues.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 21, 1963, annual message to the Congress: “The Economic Report Of The President”
“It is no contradiction – the most important single thing we can do to stimulate investment in today’s economy is to raise consumption by major reduction of individual income tax rates.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 21, 1963, annual message to the Congress: “The Economic Report Of The President”
“Our tax system still siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power and reduces the incentive for risk, investment and effort – thereby aborting our recoveries and stifling our national growth rate.”
– John F. Kennedy, Jan. 24, 1963, message to Congress on tax reduction and reform, House Doc. 43, 88th Congress, 1st Session.
“A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and a balanced federal budget. Every taxpayer and his family will have more money left over after taxes for a new car, a new home, new conveniences, education and investment. Every businessman can keep a higher percentage of his profits in his cash register or put it to work expanding or improving his business, and as the national income grows, the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues.”
– John F. Kennedy, Sept. 18, 1963, radio and television address to the nation on tax-reduction bill
Which is to say that modern Democrats are essentially calling one of their greatest presidents a liar when they demonize tax cuts as a means of increasing government revenues.
So let’s move on to Ronald Reagan. Reagan had two major tax cutting policies implemented: the Economic Recovery Tax Act (ERTA) of 1981, which was retroactive to 1981, and the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
Did Reagan’s tax cuts decrease federal revenues? Hardly:
We find that 8 of the following 10 years there was a surplus of revenue from 1980, prior to the Reagan tax cuts. And, following the Tax Reform Act of 1986, there was a MASSIVE INCREASE of revenue.
So Reagan’s tax cuts increased revenue. But who paid the increased tax revenue? The poor? Opponents of the Reagan tax cuts argued that his policy was a giveaway to the rich (ever heard that one before?) because their tax payments would fall. But that was exactly wrong. In reality:
“The share of the income tax burden borne by the top 10 percent of taxpayers increased from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. Meanwhile, the share of income taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers dropped from 7.5 percent in 1981 to 5.7 percent in 1988.”
So Ronald Reagan a) collected more total revenue, b) collected more revenue from the rich, while c) reducing revenue collected by the bottom half of taxpayers, and d) generated an economic powerhouse that lasted – with only minor hiccups – for nearly three decades. Pretty good achievement considering that his predecessor was forced to describe his own economy as a “malaise,” suffering due to a “crisis of confidence.” Pretty good considering that President Jimmy Carter responded to a reporter’s question as to what he would do about the problem of inflation by answering, “It would be misleading for me to tell any of you that there is a solution to it.”
Reagan whipped inflation. Just as he whipped that malaise and that crisis of confidence.
This might explain why a Gallup poll showed that Ronald Reagan is regarded as our greatest president, while fellow tax-cutting great John F. Kennedy is tied for second with Abraham Lincoln. Because, in proving Democrat policies are completely wrongheaded, he helped people. Including poorer people who benefited from the strong economy he built with his tax policies.
Let’s move on to George Bush and the infamous (to Democrats) Bush tax cuts. And let me quote none other than the New York Times:
Sharp Rise in Tax Revenue to Pare U.S. Deficit
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: July 13, 2005
WASHINGTON, July 12 – For the first time since President Bush took office, an unexpected leap in tax revenue is about to shrink the federal budget deficit this year, by nearly $100 billion.
A Jump in Corporate Payments On Wednesday, White House officials plan to announce that the deficit for the 2005 fiscal year, which ends in September, will be far smaller than the $427 billion they estimated in February.
Mr. Bush plans to hail the improvement at a cabinet meeting and to cite it as validation of his argument that tax cuts would stimulate the economy and ultimately help pay for themselves.
Based on revenue and spending data through June, the budget deficit for the first nine months of the fiscal year was $251 billion, $76 billion lower than the $327 billion gap recorded at the corresponding point a year earlier.
The Congressional Budget Office estimated last week that the deficit for the full fiscal year, which reached $412 billion in 2004, could be “significantly less than $350 billion, perhaps below $325 billion.”

The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well
.
[Update, September 20: The above NY Times link was scrubbed; the same article, edited differently, appears here.]
Note the newspaper’s use of liberals favorite adjective: “unexpected.” They never expect Republican and conservative polices to work, but they always do if they’re given the chance. They never expect Democrat and liberal policies to fail, but they always seem to fail every single time they’re tried.
For the record, President George Bush’s 2003 tax cuts:
raised federal tax receipts by $785 billion, the largest four-year revenue increase in U.S. history. In fiscal 2007, which ended last month, the government took in 6.7% more tax revenues than in 2006.
These increases in tax revenue have substantially reduced the federal budget deficits. In 2004 the deficit was $413 billion, or 3.5% of gross domestic product. It narrowed to $318 billion in 2005, $248 billion in 2006 and $163 billion in 2007. That last figure is just 1.2% of GDP, which is half of the average of the past 50 years.
Lower tax rates have be so successful in spurring growth that the percentage of federal income taxes paid by the very wealthy has increased. According to the Treasury Department, the top 1% of income tax filers paid just 19% of income taxes in 1980 (when the top tax rate was 70%), and 36% in 2003, the year the Bush tax cuts took effect (when the top rate became 35%). The top 5% of income taxpayers went from 37% of taxes paid to 56%, and the top 10% from 49% to 68% of taxes paid. And the amount of taxes paid by those earning more than $1 million a year rose to $236 billion in 2005 from $132 billion in 2003, a 78% increase.
Budget deficits are not merely a matter of tax policy; it is a matter of tax policy AND spending policy. Imagine you have a minimum wage job, but live within your means. Then you get a job that pays a million dollars a year. And you go a little nuts, buy a mansion, a yacht, a fancy car, and other assorted big ticket items such that you go into debt. Are you really so asinine as to argue that you made more money when you earned minimum wage? But that’s literally the Democrats’ argument when they criticize Reagan (who defeated the Soviet Union and won the Cold War in the aftermath of a recession he inherited from President Carter) and George Bush (who won the Iraq War after suffering the greatest attack on US soil in the midst of a recession he inherited from President Clinton).
As a result of the Clinton-era Dot-com bubble bursting, the Nasdaq lost a whopping 78% of its value, and $6 trillion dollars of wealth was simply vaporized. We don’t tend to remember how bad that economic disaster was, because the 9/11 attack was such a huge experience, and because instead of endlessly blaming his predecessor, George Bush simply took responsibility for the economy, cut taxes, and fixed the problem. The result, besides the above tax revenue gains, was an incredible and unprecedented 52 consecutive months of job growth.
Update September 12: Did somebody say something about “jobs”? Another fact to recognize is the horrendous damage that will be done to small businesses and the jobs they create if the tax cuts for the “rich” aren’t continued. As found in the Wall Street Journal, “According to IRS data, fully 48% of the net income of sole proprietorships, partnerships, and S corporations reported on tax returns went to households with incomes above $200,000 in 2007.” Further, the Tax Policy Center found that basically a third of taxpayers who are expected to be in the top tax bracket in 2011 generate more than half their income from a business ownership. And while Democrats love to point out that their tax hikes on the so-called rich only impact 3% of small businesses, the National Federation of Independent Business reports that that three percent employs about 25 percent of the nation’s total workforce. “Small businesses that employ 20 to 250 workers are the most likely to be hit by an increase in the top two tax rates, according to NFIB research. Businesses of this size employ more than 25 percent of the U.S. workforce.” So if you want jobs and an economic recovery, you simply don’t pile more punishing taxes on those “rich” people. Especially during a recession [End update].
We’re not arguing theories here; we’re talking about the actual, empirical numbers, literally dollars and cents, which confirms Andrew Mellon’s thesis, and Warren Harding’s and Calvin Coolidge’s, John F. Kennedy’s, Ronald Reagan’s, and George W. Bush’s, economic policies.
Harding and Coolidge, Reagan and Bush, with Democrat JFK right smack in the middle: great tax cutters all.
The notion that small- and limited-government conservatives who want ALL Americans to pay less to a freedom-encroaching government are somehow “beholden to the rich” for doing so is just a lie. And a Marxist-based lie at that.
[Update, 12/15/10]: Check out these numbers as to how the Reagan tax cuts INCREASED the taxes paid by the wealthy, and REDUCED the taxes paid by the middle class and the bottom 50% of tax payers:
Income tax burdens (from the Joint Economic Committee for the US Congress report, 1996):
1981: top 1% of earners paid 17.6% of all personal income taxes
1988: top 1% of earners paid 27.5% of all personal income taxes (+ 10%).
1981: top 10% of earners paid 48% of all personal income taxes
1988: top 10% of earners paid 57.2% of all personal income taxes (+ 9%).
So rich clearly paid MORE of the tax burden when their tax rates were LOWERED.
For the middle class:
1981: middle class paid 57.5% of all personal income taxes
1988: middle class paid 48.7% of all personal income taxes (- 9%).
The middle class’ tax burden went DOWN by 9%. They paid almost 10% LESS than what they had been paying before the Reagan cuts.
For the bottom 50%:
1981: bottom 50% paid 7.5% of all personal income taxes
1988: bottom 50% paid 5.7% of all personal income taxes (- 2%).
So the Joint Economic Economic Committee concludes that if you lower the tax rates on the rich, the rich wind up paying MORE of the tax burden and the poor end up paying LESS. When you enact confiscatory taxation policies, the people who can afford it invariably end up protecting their money. They do everything they can to NOT pay taxes because they are getting screwed. When the rates drop to reasonable rates, they don’t shelter their money; rather, they take advantage of their ability to earn more – and improve the economy by doing so – by investing. If you take away their profit, you take away their incentive to improve the economy and create jobs.
___________________________________________________________________________

Looking at Case Histories
The effect of tax rates on economic activity should not be overstated. The economy, after all, can be affected significantly by trade policy, regulatory policy, monetary policy, and many other government actions. Even within the context of fiscal policy, tax rates are not the only critical issue. Both the level of government spending and where that money goes are very important. And even when looking only at tax policy, tax rates are just one piece of the puzzle. If certain types of income are subject to multiple layers of tax, as occurs in the current system, that problem cannot be solved by low rates. Similarly, a tax system with needless levels of complexity will impose heavy costs on the productive sector of the economy.
Keeping all these caveats in mind, there nonetheless is a distinct pattern throughout American history: Simply stated, when tax rates are reduced, the economy prospers, tax revenues grow, and lower-income citizens bear a lower share of the tax burden. Conversely, periods of higher tax rates are associated with subpar economic performance and stagnant tax revenues.
The 1920s
Under the leadership of Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon during the Administrations of Presidents Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge, tax rates were slashed from the confiscatory levels they had reached in World War I. The Revenue Acts of 1921, 1924, and 1926 reduced the top rate from 73 percent to 25 percent.
Spurred in part by lower tax rates, the economy expanded dramatically. In real terms, the economy grew 59 percent between 1921 and 1929, and annual economic growth averaged more than 6 percent.
Notwithstanding (or perhaps because of) the dramatic reduction in tax rates, personal income tax revenues increased substantially during the 1920s, rising from $719 million in 1921 to $1,160 million in 1928, an increase of more than 61 percent (this was a period of no inflation).4
The share of the tax burden borne by the rich rose dramatically. As seen in Chart 5, taxes paid by the rich (those making $50,000 and up in those days) climbed from 44.2 percent of the total tax burden in 1921 to 78.4 percent in 1928.
This surge in revenue was no surprise to Mellon:




The History of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business and invest it in tax-exempt securities or to find other lawful methods of avoiding the realization of taxable income. The result is that the sources of taxation are drying up; wealth is failing to carry its share of the tax burden; and capital is being diverted into channels which yield neither revenue to the Government nor profit to the people.5​
The 1960s
President Kennedy proposed a series of tax rate reductions in 1963 that resulted in legislation the following year dropping the top rate from 91 percent in 1963 to 70 percent by 1965.6
The Kennedy tax cuts helped trigger the longest economic expansion in America's history. Between 1961 and 1968, the inflation-adjusted economy expanded by more than 42 percent. On a yearly basis, economic growth averaged more than 5 percent.
Tax revenues grew strongly, rising by 62 percent between 1961 and 1968. Adjusted for inflation, they rose by one-third.
Just as in the 1920s, the share of the income tax burden borne by the rich increased. Tax collections from those making over $50,000 per year climbed by 57 percent between 1963 and 1966, while tax collections from those earning below $50,000 rose 11 percent. As a result, the rich saw their portion of the income tax burden climb from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.7
According to President Kennedy:
Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits. Surely the lesson of the last decade is that budget deficits are not caused by wild-eyed spenders but by slow economic growth and periodic recessions and any new recession would break all deficit records. In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.8​
The 1980s
President Reagan presided over two major pieces of tax legislation which together reduced the top tax rate from 70 percent in 1980 to 28 percent by 1988.
The economic effects of the Reagan tax cuts were dramatic. When Reagan took office in 1981, the economy was being choked by high inflation and was in the middle of a double-dip recession (1980 and 1982). The tax cuts helped pull the economy out of the doldrums and ushered in the longest period of peacetime economic growth in America's history. During the seven-year Reagan boom, economic growth averaged almost 4 percent.
Critics charge that the tax cuts caused higher deficits, but they misread the evidence. The Reagan tax cut, though approved in 1981, was phased in over several years. As a result, bracket creep (indexing was not implemented until 1985) and payroll tax increases completely swamped Reagan's 1.25 percent tax cut in 1981 and effectively canceled out the portion of the tax cut which went into effect in 1982. The economy received an unambiguous tax cut only as of January 1983. Thereafter, personal income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989 (28 percent after adjusting for inflation).
Contrary to conventional wisdom, it was the "rich" who paid the additional taxes. The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.9
One of the chief architects of the Reagan tax cuts was then-U.S. Representative Jack Kemp (R-NY). According to Kemp:
At some point, additional taxes so discourage the activity being taxed, such as working or investing, that they yield less revenue rather than more. There are, after all, two rates that yield the same amount of revenue: high tax rates on low production, or low rates on high production.10​
The Lessons
1) Lower tax rates do not mean less tax revenue.
The tax cuts of the 1920s
Personal income tax revenues increased substantially during the 1920s, despite the reduction in rates. Revenues rose from $719 million in 1921 to $1164 million in 1928, an increase of more than 61 percent
(this was a period of virtually no inflation).
The Kennedy tax cuts
Tax revenues climbed from $94 billion in 1961 to $153 billion in 1968, an increase of 62 percent
(33 percent after adjusting for inflation).
The Reagan tax cuts
Total tax revenues climbed by 99.4 percent during the 1980s, and the results are even more impressive when looking at what happened to personal income tax revenues. Once the economy received an unambiguous tax cut in January 1983, income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989
(28 percent after adjusting for inflation).
2) The rich pay more when incentives to hide income are reduced.
The tax cuts of the 1920s
The share of the tax burden paid by the rich rose dramatically as tax rates were reduced. The share of the tax burden borne by the rich (those making $50,000 and up in those days) climbed from 44.2 percent in 1921 to 78.4 percent in 1928.
11
The Kennedy tax cuts
Just as happened in the 1920s, the share of the income tax burden borne by the rich increased following the tax cuts. Tax collections from those making over $50,000 per year climbed by 57 percent between 1963 and 1966, while tax collections from those earning below $50,000 rose 11 percent. As a result, the rich saw their portion of the income tax burden climb from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.
12
The Reagan tax cuts
The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.
13
 

Brick Top

New Member
A high tax rate on the wealthy leads to an incentive to reinvest their money all right. They move their businesses to Mexico and China
When the taxation rate on capital gains has been raised in the past a very common reaction to it was for the biggest investors in the stock market to sell off their stocks, draining billions and billions of dollars out of the economy, and investing it in guaranteed tax free government bonds.

Some may say that's great, that investors were investing in the nation, but that was not really the case. Being guaranteed bonds there was zero risk, the return was guaranteed. Being tax free of course meant the profits from the bonds could not be taxed. The reason major investors would do that is their after capital gains taxes profits would be lower from other investments than their profits from guaranteed tax free government bonds.

What happens if businesses are short of capital, they cannot expand, they cannot hire. That means there are fewer new jobs and the new paychecks that go with them to be taxed. That means business profits do not increase so collected tax revenues from major businesses cannot increase. It also means the tax revenues that would have been collected at a lower rate of capital gains taxation are not collected so collected tax revenues drop.

Another result is the national debt rising. The money invested plus the interest that has to be paid is part of the national debt. So when there are high capital gains taxation rates and investors shift their investment capital to guaranteed tax free government bonds the national debt increases.

Democrats are always drooling over the thought of raping the wealthy with higher capital gains tax rates. Considering the harm it does to the national economy and how it can increase the national debt you would think that any intelligent person would want capital gains taxation rates as low as they could possibly be. But the words Democrats and intelligence very seldom collide in the same sentence.
 

chickengutz

Well-Known Member
I got this from here: http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Robert-Reich/2011/1012/The-seven-biggest-economic-lies

Here’s a short effort to rebut the seven biggest whoppers now being told by those who want to take America backwards. The major points:
RELATED: Federal budget mess: Six ways to fix it

1. Tax cuts for the rich trickle down to everyone else. Baloney. Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush both sliced taxes on the rich and what happened? Most Americans’ wages (measured by the real median wage) began flattening under Reagan and have dropped since George W. Bush. Trickle-down economics is a cruel joke.
2. Higher taxes on the rich would hurt the economy and slow job growth. False. From the end of World War II until 1981, the richest Americans faced a top marginal tax rate of 70 percent or above. Under Dwight Eisenhower it was 91 percent. Even after all deductions and credits, the top taxes on the very rich were far higher than they’ve been since. Yet the economy grew faster during those years than it has since. (Don’t believe small businesses would be hurt by a higher marginal tax; fewer than 2 percent of small business owners are in the highest tax bracket.)
3. Shrinking government generates more jobs. Wrong again. It means fewer government workers – everyone from teachers, fire fighters, police officers, and social workers at the state and local levels to safety inspectors and military personnel at the federal. And fewer government contractors, who would employ fewer private-sector workers. According to Moody’s economist Mark Zandi (a campaign advisor to John McCain), the $61 billion in spending cuts proposed by the House GOP will cost the economy 700,000 jobs this year and next.
4. Cutting the budget deficit now is more important than boosting the economy. Untrue. With so many Americans out of work, budget cuts now will shrink the economy. They’ll increase unemployment and reduce tax revenues. That will worsen the ratio of the debt to the total economy. The first priority must be getting jobs and growth back by boosting the economy. Only then, when jobs and growth are returning vigorously, should we turn to cutting the deficit.
GALLERY: Top 10 highest-paid American CEOS

5. Medicare and Medicaid are the major drivers of budget deficits. Wrong. Medicare and Medicaid spending is rising quickly, to be sure. But that’s because the nation’s health-care costs are rising so fast. One of the best ways of slowing these costs is to use Medicare and Medicaid’s bargaining power over drug companies and hospitals to reduce costs, and to move from a fee-for-service system to a fee-for-healthy outcomes system. And since Medicare has far lower administrative costs than private health insurers, we should make Medicare available to everyone.
6. Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. Don’t believe it. Social Security is solvent for the next 26 years. It could be solvent for the next century if we raised the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security payroll tax. That ceiling is now $106,800.
7. It’s unfair that lower-income Americans don’t pay income tax. Wrong. There’s nothing unfair about it. Lower-income Americans pay out a larger share of their paychecks in payroll taxes, sales taxes, user fees, and tolls than everyone else.
Demagogues through history have known that big lies, repeated often enough, start being believed — unless they’re rebutted. These seven economic whoppers are just plain wrong. Make sure you know the truth – and spread it on.
That bullshit was written by Robert Reich, one of the biggest, "dick in the mouth" liberals, ever to grace TCSM.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
No. I said a high tax rate on the wealthy leads to an incentive to reinvest their money in their businesses rather than just sit on piles of cash. That is a very different statement than "if we raise everyone's taxes we will be more prosperous". Of course you know that and are intentionally mischaracterising what I'm saying because the position that the wealthy should pay a historically low tax rate at the expense of the country is an indefensible position so the only way you can dispute me is to pretend I'm saying something that I'm not saying.
Wealthy people don't have piles of cash to sit on, Wealthy folks have all of their cash invested since it is stupidity to sit on a devaluing asset. Most wealthy people who got that way are not stupid when it come to money.





Are you disputing the fact that our country was extremely prosperous and in less debt when we had a higher tax rate on the wealthy? You can dispute that if you want, but you'd be wrong because that statement is a proven well documented fact.
Not disputing that at all, but your idea that the reason we did so well was because of higher tax rates is wrong. We did well because we were the #1 manufacturer in the entire world. Just because high tax rates coincided with high prosperity does not mean tax rates were the reason behind it. It would be dishonest to say so and yet also say that a high tax rate on the wealthy will bring prosperity back. It won't , not even a little bit. You can tax the wealthy 100% and the deficit will still get bigger and bigger. We had the same tax rates on the wealthy during the late 70's and beginning of the 80's and those were not prosperous times at all. So that proves your "Tax the wealthy for prosperity" idea as wrong.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Originally Posted by Dan Kone
No. I said a high tax rate on the wealthy leads to an incentive to reinvest their money in their businesses rather than just sit on piles of cash.
High tax rates, especially when it comes to capital gains taxes, are an incentive to find legal ways to avoid paying the higher tax rates by changing what investments investment capital is in. It is a disincentive to invest in anything where profits would be taxed at a higher rate resulting in a lower net profit. That hurts the economy.
Are you disputing the fact that our country was extremely prosperous and in less debt when we had a higher tax rate on the wealthy? You can dispute that if you want, but you'd be wrong because that statement is a proven well documented fact.
There is much more to that than you make it appear. It was not higher taxation rates on the upper income earners that caused better economic conditions. It was just a better time economically and government waste was not nearly what it is today and entitlement programs either did not exist, were in their infancy or, like Social Security, were in a different form and they were not sapping taxpayer dollars nearly to the degree they are today..

Plus, if you look at the greatest economic booms in the U.S. they occurred after a reduction of tax rates. When President Bush (Dubya) got his tax cuts enacted a period of 52 consecutive months of jobs creation followed. Business loved the tax cuts, business expanded and new business starts increased and the economy grew at a blistering pace, a pace that was so fast that some feared inflation would set in. When President Reagan's tax cuts were enacted, he, followed by President H.W. Bush, had nearly had 82 consecutive months of consecutive job growth (from September 1983 to June 1990). There was only one monthly decline of 93 thousand jobs that kept that from happening.

Also, when tax rates were in the 71 to 93 percent range there were a massive number of totally legal write offs that no longer exist that when made use of greatly reduced what upper income earners had to pay in taxes so it was not as if they were actually paying 71 to 93 percent in taxation. It was not the same as today but just with different rates of taxation as so many love to believe. The list of things that could be written off, and why, was unimaginably long. Immensely longer than what can be written off today.
 

Coals

Active Member
The neat thing is that none of that matters at all. Republican or democrat your still getting a puppet of the owners of the Federal Reserve. They run the country, nothing happens without their input and most things only happen because of their input.

This is all a carefully constructed ploy to make you think your enemy is across the street. We shouldn't worry about taxation rates or anything else for that matter untill the people get a voice in Washington, the Fed is dissolved and corporate money/lobbying is taken out of politics. All these other little bickering issues are complete bullshit, time and energy wasters.

Your enemy is not across the street, that is your fellow countryman. Your enemy is Barack Obama's boss.
 
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